"official" 12 second stocker combo thread! - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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"official" 12 second stocker combo thread!

ok guys im planning on going for the elusive stock motored 12 second timeslip in my newly acquired 89 coupe. im going to try to do it using as few parts as necessary. im just curious what all you other guys are using that have run 12s (and very low 13s) with stock heads, intake, and cam


now i know theres several of you out there with these sort of cars and doing a search brings up a lot of good info, id just like to see it all in one thread so im hoping this catches on

so far my short list of what im doing to the car is as follows

4.10 gears
dynomax race magnums
off roah h pipe
bbk shorties
short belt
race crank pulley
all the free mods i can think of (bumped timing, removed fan, iced intake, etc)
either slicks or bfg drag radials havent decided

i plan on starting of with stock suspension parts and see how well it hooks before adding any parts. the car seems to have pretty decent weight transfer stock so im hoping i wont have to buy anything right away. probably will just end up going 4 cylinder springs and boxed control arms

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post #2 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 01:28 PM
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I'm assuming you are keeping it full weight?

You're list 'o' stuff looks good. I wish I'd have done 4.10's the first time. I'm swapping 3.73's to 4.10's at the end of the month... grumble grumble...
unless you are going to run in class events like trophy stock, and such, I'd go with long tubes.
drag radials will get you there on a perfect track and with suspension work, but, you'd be better off with a real slick if you are keeping the stock suspension, well, at least that's my experience. As a matter of fact, you may want to consider a 28" slick and 4.30's...
stock fuel pump is gonna need a look at.
You'll likely need a MAM, or at least bore the stocker to 60mm's.
Skinnies will likely be required as well.

I'm gonna enjoy watching you. Have you baselined the car yet?

Mike H.


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Last edited by cleanLX; 10-18-2002 at 01:41 PM.
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post #3 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 01:34 PM
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You're on the right track man. Technically I didn't do it, though my times would have elevation-corrected to a 12.76. Ah well.

Forget drag radials, they're a waste of time. Go with full slicks or nothing at all.

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post #4 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
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id like to keep it close to NMRA Factory Stock legal, thats the main reason for the shorties, plus i already had some laying around. i doubt ill ever make it to any races but just in case it would be nice to be able to run, ill probably switch to gt40 parts next summer but want to try the stock 12s thing first.


not sure on weight of the car yet, my last coupe weighed 3480 with me in it stock, im hoping this ones lighter id like to get it down to under 3200 so the AC is going along with the smog crap and any other non essential stuff. the PS has to stay (though ill probably bypass it for awhile)

im hoping to begin swapping in the T5 this weekend (currently has a blown up AOD in it, last chance for track times will be the 1st of nov so im hoping i can make it
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post #5 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 02:57 PM
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Go with an X pipe, 4.30s and a taller tire IMHO.

Might want to consider an airbag in the right rear as well. You're not a small guy, so any weight transfer you can get, the better.

Maybe consider some 70/30s and a tubular front end. Battery relocation would certainly help you out.

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post #6 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 03:03 PM
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MIKE! Hey don't do anything yet! Baseline the car and see what it will run now before you go addin stuff. Your list looks good. I wouldn't worry about doing headers and mufflers yet. You'll see much bigger gains out of just replacing the h-pipe. Also I didn't see it added but I'd get a new motorsport timing chain and retard the timing 4 degrees. Also call Downs Ford in Toms River, NJ and get a bored stock MAF. Those are about $30 and worth a solid tenth. Go slicks and stock suspension. Remember to remove the front sway bar. On the gear selection, I'd always prefered 3.73's over 4.10's. The only advantage that I saw with 4.10's would be if you plan on running a 27" or 28" tire.
I can't wait to see how ya do!
Take care
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post #7 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 03:21 PM
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3.73s aren't enough gear....well, they may work, but it'd be easier with 4.10s. The car will trap ~105 with a stock motor and you'll still have plenty of powerband left with the 3.73s. Use all of it that you can. If it were me doing it again I'd put 4.30s and 27" beef on it.

Get the headers and catback, it's just that much more power you're gonna add. The C&L 76mm MAF was worth a solid 3 tenths in back to back testing against the stocker at the track.

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post #8 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 03:35 PM
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Hmmm plenty of powerband. Well my car made power right to 5200 in 4th gear and I went thru the traps right at 5300 on a M/T 26x8.5. 4.10 would have put alittle too far above my cars powerband in my opinion. Every car is different

One of the originals Stockers
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post #9 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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hiya al

im thinking about running it with the stock headers first and then swapping to see if it makes an actual difference. im gonna try my best to do one part at a time to see what really works, ya know. sucks winter is here so i gotta wait til next year to really do anything. the car has 2.73s currently so if i can make it to the track on the 1st that should be interesting

was planning the timing chain, 4¬į retard and some fresh valve springs (and possibly a fresh valve job)

FWIW my old coupe went 99.7 mph when it was stock with only 3.73 gears and full exhaust, it weighed in at 3480lbs. figure if it had weighed 3100-3200 that would have been an easy 102-103 mph and on slicks should have been good for low 13s with hook


one thing on the gear is im running a T5Z with the 2.95 first gear (the 3.73s in my old car didnt seem like quite enough gear in 1st but i was using a 28" tire) im hoping the 4.10s would be a little better but still not TOO much. talked with a few factory stock racers and they are shifting at 6100 with stock retarded cams, not sure i want to go that high but if thats what it takes maybe 4.30s would be the way to go? i dont know. they are using 28" tires with 4.30 gears, i figure 4.10 with 26" tires would be about the same?
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post #10 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 04:28 PM
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I think those stocker guys that are shifting at 6100 have those "stocker cams" The factory cam (unless they changed them) is not going to get close to making power till 6100. There is actually a big difference in the 4.30's and 28" tire vs. the 4.10 and 26" tire. The 28" and 4.30 give you a much bigger tire contact patch, plus the fact that the 28" tire sidewall is much taller allowing for the intial shock of the clutch hitting the tires to be reduced which helps to not blow the tires off. Mike I'm sure you will have no trouble with the 12sec barrier (remember the first time ) Anyway, start gutting that pig. Nov 1st gives you plenty of time so get hopin!...lol
Talk to ya later
Al

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post #11 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 09:10 PM
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Wow.
Al Renkle... out from the depths... where have you been?
I cannot even find your web site anymore...
What was that Black coupe 60' when you did the "how to go 12's on a budget" article for MM&FF?

Factory Stock is about as factory stock as I am a movie star!

My factory original motor, with MAM and full exhaust makes peak power at 4900 rpm. With the stock hearers and tail pipes it made peak hp at 4800 rpm.
103mph with a 26.1" tall tire, and 3.73's puts me in the trap ast 4900 rpm... I need 4:10's to wind it out a bit more, and with original suspension, I need the help out of the hole as well.

4.30's would be more than I want on my street car (actually, I'm not sure the 4.10's are gonna ge all that great for street duty...), but as mention'd, would be great with a 28" tall slick for track duty.

Mike H.
Duffee 306 and E7te's, Buddy Rawls cam. 368rwhp/363rwtq.
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post #12 of 356 Old 10-18-2002, 09:34 PM
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I would recommend a 3.73 gear and a 26" tall tire. The shorter tire will provide less inertia to overcome than the taller one. Get a set of light weight wheels, Welds for instance. Anytime you can reduce rotating mass your car will accellerate faster. An aluminum driveshaft will help in this area too as will underdrive pullies.

Stiffen the chassis with SFC's and a good roll bar, I used a 6 point set up from Chassis Engineering. You will also want to use a sturdy set of LCA's and some adjustable UCA's if you can afford them. This will allow you to tune your pinion angle and make it launch better.

Get rid of all uneeded weight, weight is your enemy. The AC system and power steering is a lot of dead weight. Move your battery to the trunk. All this will help in weight transfer on launch.

Set timing to 14 BTDC, install an AFPR and find the best fuel pressure by track testing. My coupe liked 51 psi.

The only engine changes I made were to install a 65mm TB and a set of Cobra 1.7 rockers. The exhaust system was 1 5/8" MAC long tubes with a 2.5" off road H and Flowpath mufflers.

All these changes netted me a 12.76 ET at 106 MPH at a 3100# race weight. I think it would have gone quicker with more tweaking but I got greedy and swapped the heads, cam and intake after that.
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post #13 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 02:47 AM
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My old 87 coupe went [email protected] with 3.73s,26x8.5 M/T slicks,all the free mods,U/Ds,Dynomax super turbos(mufflers only),and AFPR.Launched the car around 5500rpm,and shifted around 5200-5300.People at the track use to call me a liar,saying there was no way the car was that quick with so little mods.

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post #14 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 09:34 AM
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Hi cleanLX,
I've been on hiatus.... The best 60' I ever had when the car was in stocker form was a 1.71. That was on a M/T 26x8.5 with 3.73's. I had all stock suspension. The lca were stock as were the springs. I had lakewood 50-50 and 90-10's up front. My car made power to about 5350-5400, due the the fact that I had the stock cam retarded 4 degrees and that moved the entire horsepower curve up 400 rpm. My website is gone. I got tired of paying for and ISP when i had free internet service thru work. So my webspace went away.

I've since sold my coupe and one of these day's I'll get another one and do it all over again....



AL
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post #15 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 12:05 PM
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well i like this tread it was today that i decided to get it into the 12's with stock heads/ intake / cam. I have gotten the idea from the other corralers trying too. BOLDSWORD you are my hero. But I am going to cheat and switch back and forth racing with my ET drags and the street tires. I am sooo excitied to get my transmission back today after THREE WEEKS of not having my stang. Im having withdrawls. Anyway, since i have driven my car last, i removed the back seat, all the brackets, sounds deadening, and anything else that was lying around in the back, spare tire ect ect. (100+ lbs) I also swapped my hood for the fiberglass cervini's (maybe 10lbs) and removed my front sway bar (15 lbs). I also gutted the stock h pipe and dumped my mac cat back. Any one wanna guess what she weighs now? I'm thinking right around 3000??? I'll be going to the track soon, after i get the idle figured out. I'll be "trying" powershifting, and running the e/t drags. What do you think i can get? I am planning on an offroad h-pipe, and headers next. Me and all the guys around here have a joke going about my car, because there is no reason it should be as fast as it is. But I guess it's becuase of the early Speed density thing. I can beat my friends 95 cobra with full exhaust, my other bud's 95 gt with CAI and Full exhaust and some ignition stuff, and my friend (brads5.0) 89 gt with longtubes, off road h, flowmasters, 3.73s with 255/16's, CAI, plugs, wires, coil, AFPR and some other little stuff. We just call my car the freak. Anyway, just trying to get some of my excitiment out to finally have my car back, and to ask for any advice from the others going for 12's with stock H/C/I, espeacially BOLDSWORD. Have a great day, adam

By the way, car has 190,000 . Ouch

93 LX 5.0, 71k, Teal, 5 speed, K&N, 17* timing, Accel Coil, BBk Cold Air, 70mm Throttle body, 70mm EGR, 73mm MAss Air, Edelbrock RPM intake, 24lb injectors,E303, Flowmaster cat back, Zoom clutch, Billet Quadrant, Firewall adjuster, Hurst Short Throw, FMS 3 core radiator, MAC 1.5" lowering springs, 17 inch rims, Cobra 1.7 roller rockers, Xenon Head lights, Indiglo A-pillar Gauges, Strut Tower bar, Rear Shock Tower Bar
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post #16 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 12:09 PM
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CobraGreen,
We should line them up. You going to FireTurd on the 26th?

Mike H.
Duffee 306 and E7te's, Buddy Rawls cam. 368rwhp/363rwtq.
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post #17 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 12:12 PM
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wow, cleanLX, i just noticed your in mesa too. Actually, yeah, i will go the 26th. I was hoping it was open then, becasue tomorrow/ tonite is my 18th birthday, and i get to drive at the track finally. Do you ever go to PAvillons??? Email me sometime, [email protected]. I'd love to line up with another corraler. adam

93 LX 5.0, 71k, Teal, 5 speed, K&N, 17* timing, Accel Coil, BBk Cold Air, 70mm Throttle body, 70mm EGR, 73mm MAss Air, Edelbrock RPM intake, 24lb injectors,E303, Flowmaster cat back, Zoom clutch, Billet Quadrant, Firewall adjuster, Hurst Short Throw, FMS 3 core radiator, MAC 1.5" lowering springs, 17 inch rims, Cobra 1.7 roller rockers, Xenon Head lights, Indiglo A-pillar Gauges, Strut Tower bar, Rear Shock Tower Bar
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post #18 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 02:59 PM
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Good thread!!!

This is my goal as well, I've been using Mr. Cosbys 'bolt-on' 12 Second ET Recipe So far I have: Densecharger aor kit, 75mm MAM, 65mm TB, BBK long tubes & H-Pipe, Flowmaster cat-back, underdrives, MK8 fan, Lakewood 70/30 struts & 50/50 shocks, Mega-Bite Jr. control arms, removed the air-conditioning

Still to do: wheels & tires, rearend, manual steering, electric water pump, tubular k-member & a-arms, move battery to trunk

Havn't been to the track yet but will come next spring
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post #19 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 03:49 PM
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Heres how i ran several 12.8's. Off road H, dumps, 3.90 gears, nittos, fresh tuneup, removed a/c, pulleys, and all the free mods, and lastly a 100 shot of nitrous... with a 1.8 60 ft. Car can go faster if i could get it to hook good and get my bottle pressure up.

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Hell yeah! I can't wait to start sucking some cocks!!!
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post #20 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 04:43 PM
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i think a power adder kinda takes the 'stock' out it.

Mike H.
Duffee 306 and E7te's, Buddy Rawls cam. 368rwhp/363rwtq.
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post #21 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cleanLX
i think a power adder kinda takes the 'stock' out it.
I dont. Its not stock with gears and all that other stuff either. Even with the juice the motor is still stock. Thats what he said he wanted to do. My car has stock heads, cam, intake. As well as the rest of the engine itself. I think its a relatively cheap and quick way to get to the twelves.

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Hell yeah! I can't wait to start sucking some cocks!!!
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post #22 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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well in that case i went 12.78 @ 106 with only 3.73 gears, a catback, and slicks... oh and a 75 shot of nitrous

(ran 14.0 @ 96 on motor)
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post #23 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 06:25 PM
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Some people just don't get it.
I really want to rant right now, and whore this post out, but I'll not do it.

Mike H.
Duffee 306 and E7te's, Buddy Rawls cam. 368rwhp/363rwtq.
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post #24 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 06:44 PM
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more conflicting opinions from another old timer:

Do not stiffen up the chassis. A little chassis flex will let you still hook on a smaller tire. And a smaller tire is a lower inertia tire. An air bag will help you tune the chassis to launch straight.

Even with a "stocker cam", you won't make peak power much past 5200 (the stock intake chokes). But, that doesn't mean you should gear it to hit 5200 through the traps. Power falls off slowly after the peak (assuming good valve springs), and the goal is getting there quicker (not faster), so I vote for the 26" slicks with 4.10s (or more). The 2.95 first will hurt you without enough rear gear. Shoot for around 5600 through the traps (real tach, not stock tach, reading), but shift around 5200.

A MAF car will be more of a challenge than a SD car. Yes, bore out the stock MAF (as a minimum), but you might find that you want LESS fuel pressure (MAF runs richer than SD), since there's power to be made by leaning out the (factory conservative) WOT fueling. For example, the A9L targets ~ 12.3 A/F at WOT, and you'll make more power around 13-13.5.

As others mentioned, ditch all the weight you can, especially at the front of the car. Flyweight wheels, skinnies, and tubeless slicks.

I'm also a fan of long tubes, and open exhaust.

Don't forget to drive it like you hate it.

Ed

P.S. Al Renkel? Holy crap!
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post #25 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 06:50 PM
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I've turned a 12.8 @ 103 w/less than many responding here...pm me for my setup if ya want...later Derrick
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post #26 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by cleanLX
Some people just don't get it.
I really want to rant right now, and whore this post out, but I'll not do it.
Im sure your talking about me here. He said stock heads, intake and cam. Well i have stock heads, intake, and cam and am running in the twelves like he wants to do. He also wants to use as few parts as necassary.. So yes i do get it. If your not talking about me then have a nice day.

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Hell yeah! I can't wait to start sucking some cocks!!!
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post #27 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 06:56 PM
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Ed Hohenberg!

Holy Hel l ! First Al R., who fell off the earth for a while, but has found his way back, and now Ed H.! next thing you know, Mr. Smith will be in here! Then, Bob C. will have to say something...

This thread rocks!

I'm glad to hear about your opinion on the 4.10's, as I'm moving to a set, however, I wish I didn't read the part about stiff chassis... As I'm welded up.
I just put a 255 pump in as the stock pump went bye bye, and am thinking I ought to lean it out as it does not feel as zippy, especially now having read what you have to say, but, I've not been to the track yet with the new pump. Hmm.

Open exhaust eh? After the collector, or after the H-pipe? My Dad's been at me to crack it open too... I've got 1-5/8" dia 30" long primaries, and 3" dia 14" collectors, 3 bolt flange...

Mike H.
Duffee 306 and E7te's, Buddy Rawls cam. 368rwhp/363rwtq.

Last edited by cleanLX; 10-19-2002 at 07:16 PM.
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post #28 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 10:38 PM
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It's nice to hear from people with vast experience (Al and ED) on these matters. Great thread!


Here is my current combo:
Cold air kit
H-pipe
Batt. in trunk
Short belt
Relocate ACT
Removed front sway bar

Best ET and MPH to date 13.434 and 103.52 on 225/60/16 street radials.


Future mods planned:
Home made ram air
4.10 gears
Slicks
Long tube headers
Cat back
1.6RR
Skinny fronts
Aluminum drive shaft
Electric fan

After these mods are done I may add heads, cam, and intakes. It all depends on how well the car runs with the bolt ons. My goal for the bolt ons mentioned above is mid 12's at around 106 - 107.

Good luck with your quest Mike, and keep us posted on your findings/results.



93 ex FHP 5spd,3.08,ac,ps,pb.
mods. to date: mac cold air kit, short belt, h-pipe, relocate ACT sensor to driver side fender well, Batt. moved to the trunk.
Best ET:13.834 @ 100.605
Best 60' 1.99 on Radials.
-Update: 1/17/01
Best ET:13.758 @ 99.59
-Update:10/17/01
BestET: 13.555 @ 101.83
Best 60' 1.90 on Radials.
-Update:2/27/02
BestET: 13.486 @ 102.10
-Update:10/04/02
BestET: 13.434 @ 103.23
-Update: 10/16/02
BestMPH: 103.52
-Update:01/17/03
BestET:[email protected] 103.22
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post #29 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 11:16 PM
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Ed! Nice to see you're still around . I completely concur with everything Ed has to say on this subject. If anyone knows how to get the most out of stock parts, it's Ed. Derrick isn't bad either if it's the same guy I'm thinking about (silver lx? Iron Mike?). Another good point that Ed brought up is leaning it out and The A9L computer.
BTW: I'm sure Bob C. will show up sooner or later with some of his insight.
Al Renkel
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post #30 of 356 Old 10-19-2002, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
was planning the timing chain, 4¬į retard and some fresh valve springs (and possibly a fresh valve job)
You'll need some better retainers and toss in some new teflon seals......add some new locks too, they're usually shot

Have them cut a deep first angle to clean the bowl to seat transition up a bit (its pretty bad in stock form

93lx, Typhoon intake, TW heads, stock cam, full exhaust, 3.73's, dbl adj uppers, hpm mb sr lca's, strange 10ways, frnt coil overs, junk upr cc's, qa1 k, dr's - typical pos fox body
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post #31 of 356 Old 10-20-2002, 01:14 AM
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not to step on any "old timers" toes here(especially you ed :P)

I again agree with the 4.10 with 26 ET street combo.

A dude I know with a stripped LX went [email protected] with 4.10's, 26" et streets, full exhaust, alum d/s, and one hell of a driver.

The car did have pulleys but we took off the serpentine belt anyways. Took out the air filter as well, even the alternator. It was a SD car. 100% stock suspension/engine. Even had heavy ass 10 holes on it and ponys up front.

Don't forget to pump your front tires to 45+.
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post #32 of 356 Old 10-20-2002, 04:02 PM
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Now how hard would it to do it with a aod car??

owner of many death traps.
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post #33 of 356 Old 10-20-2002, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jrod-13
Now how hard would it to do it with a aod car??
With nitrous it'd be easy. N/A, with a STOCK aod. It would be very hard IMO.

-Dave-

93 Calypso notch... Built 306 H/C/I etc... Runs 11.9's
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post #34 of 356 Old 10-20-2002, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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nah i dont think it would all that hard but yould have to do a lot of experimenting with convertors
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post #35 of 356 Old 10-21-2002, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jrod-13
Now how hard would it to do it with a aod car??
I think it could be done but without nitrous it wouldn't be easy. It'd take a BUILT AOD with a trans-brake, the right converter, steeper gears (4.56's?) and less weight, but when you were done it would probably be more consistant then a manual car
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