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post #1 of 48 Old 12-04-2018, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Help choosing the right one

I am looking into getting a new engine management system for my 89 fox. The car is a stock bottom end, trick flow heads and intake, E-cam and a s-trim around 10#s. Currently the car has the FMU and no way to pull timing underboost with the stock ECU. The Holley efi caught my interest, I am not sure on a few things and was hoping someone could answer some of my questions or is there is a better option for what I am trying to accomplish.

I know the parts on the car can make enough power to split the block and since it is more of a street car than drag car driveability is more important than peak power. I want to have the factory gauges in the cluster working. Can you get those to work with the Holley? I know some wiring mods to the IAC & TPS are required so a little more wiring to get the gauages working isn't a deal breaker. Also if I put the AC back on the car can I get that working with a Holley or Pro-m for that matter? If there is a better option that I can use the factory gauges and AC please point me in that direction!

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post #2 of 48 Old 12-04-2018, 09:28 PM
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you dont need Elec management for a/c, toggle switches work well enough


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post #3 of 48 Old 12-04-2018, 09:30 PM
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you want a street application.

ask yourself, are you proficient in tuning, able to understand flow of logic, computer savvy?

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post #4 of 48 Old 12-04-2018, 10:04 PM
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Pro-M or Tweecer; Pro-m if you need a new harness and want pretty much plug and play OR Tweecer if you want to spend the time and learn the logic of the EEC-IV like indy said above (I'd pull the harness and test/re-wrap it since it is 20+ years old)

I have no information on the Holley outside of it looks pretty solid.

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post #5 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:22 AM Thread Starter
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Pro-M or Tweecer; Pro-m if you need a new harness and want pretty much plug and play OR Tweecer if you want to spend the time and learn the logic of the EEC-IV like indy said above (I'd pull the harness and test/re-wrap it since it is 20+ years old)

I have no information on the Holley outside of it looks pretty solid.
Does the AC work with the Pro-m? I knew w everything should stay working when using something like a Tweecer, quarter horse or PMS. Those just seem like out dated systems and I don't know a lot about them. On those systems do you input the injector and MAF info and it creates a base tune and you adjust from there or do you have to create the whole thing on your own?
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post #6 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
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you want a street application.

ask yourself, are you proficient in tuning, able to understand flow of logic, computer savvy?
I would say no I am not proficient in tuning, I have never tried it, I do understand it enough to know when I have read data logs from when I had a 12 coyote that I could see things I didn't like that "expert tuners" had done. And when they did revisions those things we're still there.

That is why the Pro-m and Holley were appealing to me. They have a self learn to get it close and if there is stuff I didn't like I would have the ability to change it on my own.
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post #7 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:51 AM
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Have you called Holley and talked to a technician for advice on your application? That's what I would do.
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post #8 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 08:00 AM
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I would look into the pro m system since your car is mostly street driven. It comes with the harness already made and is just a drop in. The computer is configured to run the engine completely except for injector data,MAF curve and idle speed. Those are the only parameters you should change in the “tune”

The system comes with OBD2 diagnostics so you can scan the sensors faults without laptop.

Pro mÂ’s layaway program makes it a little easier to purchase. Yes you need a MAF sensor with 30 point calibration.

Spend the time driving the car not screwing around with aftermarket ecu decidering what the different fields mean.

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post #9 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 09:34 AM
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That is why the Pro-m and Holley were appealing to me. They have a self learn to get it close and if there is stuff I didn't like I would have the ability to change it on my own.
from your view, how do you think this 'self learning' actually works?

and how do you think its different from a outdated stock EECIV?

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post #10 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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from your view, how do you think this 'self learning' actually works?

and how do you think its different from a outdated stock EECIV?
My understanding of the self learn is that the ECU have a target a/f ratio they are trying to accomplish. It uses a wideband to montitor this. Based on what a/f the wideband is reading the ECU will adjust the fuel (I assume injector on time) to either add or remove fuel to achieve it's target a/f ratio.

The old EEC ecus do not use a wideband. So you set a the injetor on time and you have to watch monitor the a/f ratio yourself. Then do the math to see how much how far off you are from what you want to a/f ratio to be. Then you have to go back in and change the injector settings. Drive the car and see if the changes you were hoping to happen actually did happen and if not you repeat the process until you have achieved the desired a/f ratio.

Is my understanding correct on this? If not, please feel free to correct me

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post #11 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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Have you called Holley and talked to a technician for advice on your application? That's what I would do.
I have not, I think sometimes it is better to talk to the people who are using the products and what kind of experience have been with them.
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post #12 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 12:12 PM
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You should call Pro-M too. I thin it's more along the line of what you're looking for as far as not having to do any tuning.

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post #13 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 02:09 PM
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Self tune is not “tuning”. Holley EFI all the way!
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post #14 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 04:45 PM
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If it isn't clear, the Pro-M system is not self-learning.

YOU put in the data for YOUR components...because the system knows the exact load, displacement, rpm, injector flow, and amount of air entering the engine, it simply does that math just like every other mass-air system to achieve the desired AFR. The only tuning you need to do is adjusting the timing and desired AFRs for your engine combination...you don't need to do any tuning just to get the engine to run.
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post #15 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by vinylinterior89 View Post
Does the AC work with the Pro-m? I knew w everything should stay working when using something like a Tweecer, quarter horse or PMS. Those just seem like out dated systems and I don't know a lot about them. On those systems do you input the injector and MAF info and it creates a base tune and you adjust from there or do you have to create the whole thing on your own?
Yes, everything works as it did from the factory. Sounds like what you want and have Pro-M enter your info or watch the videos, it's easy

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post #16 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:22 PM
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My understanding of the self learn is that the ECU have a target a/f ratio they are trying to accomplish. It uses a wideband to montitor this. Based on what a/f the wideband is reading the ECU will adjust the fuel (I assume injector on time) to either add or remove fuel to achieve it's target a/f ratio.

The old EEC ecus do not use a wideband. So you set a the injetor on time and you have to watch monitor the a/f ratio yourself. Then do the math to see how much how far off you are from what you want to a/f ratio to be. Then you have to go back in and change the injector settings. Drive the car and see if the changes you were hoping to happen actually did happen and if not you repeat the process until you have achieved the desired a/f ratio.

Is my understanding correct on this? If not, please feel free to correct me
both use adaptive fueling

that is not self learning

fuel trims are generated to correct what is commanded, via 02 sensors

the prom is newer with new wiring and OBDII connectivity, which is nice

but you can get the stock eec to perform quite well, but it will require you to invest a lot of time in reading and learning

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post #17 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, everything works as it did from the factory. Sounds like what you want and have Pro-M enter your info or watch the videos, it's easy
Yeah it sounds like the Pro-m one is the closet to what I am looking for
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post #18 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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both use adaptive fueling

that is not self learning

fuel trims are generated to correct what is commanded, via 02 sensors

the prom is newer with new wiring and OBDII connectivity, which is nice

but you can get the stock eec to perform quite well, but it will require you to invest a lot of time in reading and learning
I agree with you on the fuel trims being corrected by 02 sensors. On the Pro-m & Holley there are wideband 02s that are used as inputs. These provide an exact a/f ration reading to the ECU. On the EECIV based systems they use the factory narrow band 02s sensors as inputs and those only show rich or lean not how rich or how lean so the EEC fuel trim corrections are not as calculated.

It is like using a test light vs a DVOM! A test light will show you if you have power a DVOM is going to tell you exactly how much power you have.

That to me is out dated technology on the EEC system. I think the EEC based systems have there place and can be used with great success. If I were building a car that I was just trying to get a good WOT tune I would really consider one, but since that isn't my goal I think a newer style ECU fits my needs better. I also feel like the EEC systems support is dying and in a few years if I change my combo I may be trying to find a old laptop on eBay with a certain operating software on it just to be able to get my car to run. Where with a newer style system I think that would be less likely to happen
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post #19 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 08:35 PM
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NB are MORE accurate around stoich

and fuel trims gathered in closed loop is applied to open loop

"are not as calculated'???

you dont understand how the input of NB sensors is used to calculate fuel mass........its a designed driven loop based on feedback error

that is how feedbacks work, WB dont give a fuel mass


also remember 02 feedback is just that, its reporting what has already happened

you can easily mess things up with placement of the sensor

either way if your fueling is not dialed in as close to 1 as possible that first WOT can be a disaster

i am not convinced use of the prom should be solely based on use of WB sensors

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post #20 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 08:51 PM
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either way if your fueling is not dialed in as close to 1 as possible that first WOT can be a disaster

i am not convinced use of the prom should be solely based on use of WB sensors
I can say that when using the Pro-M, I could shut off my WB correction and run it...I've never seen anything over 3% STFT, and 3% is rare. Still possible to have an issue, but I have pretty good confidence in it. However, my induction/MAF was tested and I have accurate MAF data. I also have accurate fuel injector data.



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but you can get the stock eec to perform quite well, but it will require you to invest a lot of time in reading and learning
That was MY dilemma...given the amount of hours it would take me to get the EEC-IV working properly, I ultimately decided I could make more money in OT with that time than an aftermarket EFI system would cost me. If I had nothing else to do other than tweek my EFI system, I may have purchased a quarterhorse and saved a bunch of money.
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post #21 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 09:32 PM
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your fuel trims are 3% at peak load and rpm?

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post #22 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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NB are MORE accurate around stoich

and fuel trims gathered in closed loop is applied to open loop

"are not as calculated'???

you dont understand how the input of NB sensors is used to calculate fuel mass........its a designed driven loop based on feedback error

that is how feedbacks work, WB dont give a fuel mass


also remember 02 feedback is just that, its reporting what has already happened

you can easily mess things up with placement of the sensor

either way if your fueling is not dialed in as close to 1 as possible that first WOT can be a disaster

i am not convinced use of the prom should be solely based on use of WB sensors
1) you must of missed my last paragraph where I gave other reasons why I don't think an EEC based system is what I want, not just based on 02 sensors.

2) I agree widebands don't give fuel mass, they give fuel ratio. They are an input to the ECU on what already happened. If the target A/F ratio an ECU is trying to achieve is say 12.0/1 and the wideband reports an A/F ratio of 13.2. the ECU will see it is 10% too lean it will add 10% to the injector on time. To try to correct the issue A narrow 02 will not do that. It will just say it is lean, ECU that used narrow 02s has a set amount of injector on time it will add to correct it, if still says it's lean it will add more injector on time, until then shows it's too rich then it will take some injector on time away. It is almost like trial and error until it is correct. The logic the older ECUs that had narrow bands didnt have the processing algorithms (calculations) like the wideband ECUs have. There is a reason all the manufactures switched from narrow to widebands for the pre-cat 02s. It is better technology.

3) Since you have some much knowledge on this subject, Based on the info I gave in the original post of what I am trying to achieve and use my car for, what engine management system do you think would best be suited for my needs?

You have yet to answer that in any of your posts. That is why I started this thread, so I can get peoples first hand experience on systems they have used them and seeing from there experiences which one will best suit my needs.

Thanks
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post #23 of 48 Old 12-05-2018, 11:27 PM
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i am not convinced use of the prom should be solely based on use of WB sensors
I believe you can opt for narrowband sensors with the Pro-M Setup.


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your fuel trims are 3% at peak load and rpm?
You know, it's been a long time since I've looked at a log so I dug one up from a WOT pull. However, because I was logging meant I was troubleshooting an issue and I don't recall what that issue was. I believe it a fuel injector failing but this log is 2 years old and who knows why I saved it.

That said, I guess I was off from what I remember (3%), but I wasn't far off. It seems I had a few instances where I hit about 5% correction at WOT which is enough to sway the AFR about half a point but nothing extreme to where I'd be concerned about blowing up the motor. Most of the log is under 4% correction. The correction was actually pulling fuel (vs fixing a lean condition), so even less to worry about I suppose.
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post #24 of 48 Old 12-06-2018, 09:31 AM
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1) you must of missed my last paragraph where I gave other reasons why I don't think an EEC based system is what I want, not just based on 02 sensors.

2) I agree widebands don't give fuel mass, they give fuel ratio. They are an input to the ECU on what already happened. If the target A/F ratio an ECU is trying to achieve is say 12.0/1 and the wideband reports an A/F ratio of 13.2. the ECU will see it is 10% too lean it will add 10% to the injector on time. To try to correct the issue A narrow 02 will not do that. It will just say it is lean, ECU that used narrow 02s has a set amount of injector on time it will add to correct it, if still says it's lean it will add more injector on time, until then shows it's too rich then it will take some injector on time away. It is almost like trial and error until it is correct. The logic the older ECUs that had narrow bands didnt have the processing algorithms (calculations) like the wideband ECUs have. There is a reason all the manufactures switched from narrow to widebands for the pre-cat 02s. It is better technology.

3) Since you have some much knowledge on this subject, Based on the info I gave in the original post of what I am trying to achieve and use my car for, what engine management system do you think would best be suited for my needs?

You have yet to answer that in any of your posts. That is why I started this thread, so I can get peoples first hand experience on systems they have used them and seeing from there experiences which one will best suit my needs.

Thanks
1) i didn't miss your last paragraph, it made no sense so was not worth commenting on
2)02 sensors, create a voltage based on differential 02 content, neither WB or NB report any a/f ratio at all. I agree that the use of WB allow for closed loop adaptive fueling during WOT on prom not avail on the eecIV but that doesn't mean the eecIV doesn't use closed corrections during OL fueling. Either MEthod still means you need to be on the rich side to begin with, during that first WOT run
3)I dont know enough of the prom system to have an opinion on choosing it over a eecIV or not, i like to understand circuit and system design and the challenge of tuning, but that is not for all

I can say, if you are doing a project, and dont have a reliable wiring harness, i think the prom is certainly a good choice just based on that alone.

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post #25 of 48 Old 12-06-2018, 09:38 AM
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BSFGUY,

those fuel trims at WOT is certainly very impressive, sounds like you have fueling dialed in

you are at the stage where you can start to pull or add fuel to find max power..

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post #26 of 48 Old 12-06-2018, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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1) i didn't miss your last paragraph, it made no sense so was not worth commenting on
2)02 sensors, create a voltage based on differential 02 content, neither WB or NB report any a/f ratio at all. I agree that the use of WB allow for closed loop adaptive fueling during WOT on prom not avail on the eecIV but that doesn't mean the eecIV doesn't use closed corrections during OL fueling. Either MEthod still means you need to be on the rich side to begin with, during that first WOT run
3)I dont know enough of the prom system to have an opinion on choosing it over a eecIV or not, i like to understand circuit and system design and the challenge of tuning, but that is not for all

I can say, if you are doing a project, and dont have a reliable wiring harness, i think the prom is certainly a good choice just based on that alone.
What I meant in that last paragraph was the EEC systems do not have as much support as they used to. The PMS for example Anderson only sells a replacement harness now a days. Before you could buy the hand held screen etc from them. Now you are on your own sourcing the replacement or repair. On Tweecer website it says computer require centain operating software. Windows 2000 and XP were listed as some. Let's say in 5 years I change my combo and I need to retune it. Finding a working computer that has windows XP may be next to impossible.

As far as the 02 sensors. Every sensor on a car works of voltage. Based on the voltage sent to the ECU by a wideband the ECU knows the exact a/f ratio. A narrow one only shows rich/ lean based off voltage and the voltage is a smaller operating voltage 1v vs 5v if I remember correctly. It has been a while since I had to do anything narrow 02s. To me a visual representation of how the 02s voltage is being analized by the ECU is the old stoichiometry gauges they had in Fast N furious just going Green/yellow/red- red/yellow/green vs an actually number being displayed by a wideband. Yes, I agree if you aren't rich on your first pull you are asking for issues with either system.


For me if I am going out to buy a new Engine management system for my car, it seems like a no brainier to go for one using 2010ish technology vs 1986 technology. Everyone has there own personal preference though.
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post #27 of 48 Old 12-06-2018, 01:24 PM
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I USE win 7 and win 10 is used by others, so you will have to update your opinion on operating system

As far as “GLOBAL” adjustments made by handheld “tuners” there is no fair comparison

Hand held tuning is not the same as opening memory addresses on a memory chip....you are on PID level with a laptop, and i think prom uses a laptop interface?

We can debate WB and NB usage, but that will get no where, the math is done within the chip on both anyhow

And the EECIV does not use NB info as in the fast and furious.......the strategy drive lambse around stoic for catalyst usage, the changes seen are then corrected for

It’s a precise and effective method of adaptive fueling, you can verify it with a third party WB as i and most do.
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post #28 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 04:28 AM
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I'm kind of interested in what the Holly users have to say...I see a ton of them used on Youtube but most of these guys are sending them off to professional tuners from what I can see.


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BSFGUY,

those fuel trims at WOT is certainly very impressive, sounds like you have fueling dialed in

you are at the stage where you can start to pull or add fuel to find max power..
I didn't even realize this was anything to be excited about...I figured it was normal. I did find another log which did show some minor funky stuff at Idle but honestly I think that's all due to the camshaft and lack of flow. Must be quick changes because it isn't observed on the gauge.
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post #29 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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I'm kind of interested in what the Holly users have to say...
I am too! I know people that have it and love it, they are just using them on LS swapped BMWs and like you mentioned they used it to get the car drivable and then had someone else do the tune on it. I'm curious how smoothly it works on a fox with trying to keep the stock gauges and not use there display and how it would work with AC etc.

My car is a 66k mile coupe with all VIN stickers etc on it. I don't want to pull the gaugues put in the display, if I ever go to sell i don't want to give someone ammo to start with there is no speedo how do I know the miles are original and all that. So my goal is to keep the int stockish as possible, but add a system i can use to make the car safer and more enjoyable to drive.
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post #30 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 08:20 AM Thread Starter
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I USE win 7 and win 10 is used by others, so you will have to update your opinion on operating system

As far as “GLOBAL” adjustments made by handheld “tuners” there is no fair comparison

Hand held tuning is not the same as opening memory addresses on a memory chip....you are on PID level with a laptop, and i think prom uses a laptop interface?

We can debate WB and NB usage, but that will get no where, the math is done within the chip on both anyhow

And the EECIV does not use NB info as in the fast and furious.......the strategy drive lambse around stoic for catalyst usage, the changes seen are then corrected for

It’s a precise and effective method of adaptive fueling, you can verify it with a third party WB as i and most do.
You have never said what EEC system you are using, Which one do you have?

I don't think a narrow 02 can't work efficiently. It has been proven it can.i just feel there is better technology out there and if I am going to spend money on buying an engine management I would like to get one I feel will work best for what I am trying to achieve. I an open to considering an EEC based system, but all you have done is try to convince me it is the best way to do it. Rather than give me info on which EEC systems you think would fit my needs and which ones still have a lot of support, as alot of them do not have the support they used to have like I have said about Anderson and the PMS.

I think a wideband is a better though. Based on what you have said I get the impression you don't think a wideband ECU can tell the exact A/F ratio.

A coolant temp sensor sends voltage, based on the volatge the ECU knows the exact coolant temp.

A intake air temp sensor sends voltage based on that voltage the ECU knows the exact air temp

A mass air flow sensor sends voltage to the ECU based on that voltage the ECU knows the exact air mass

A throttle position sensor sends voltage to the ECU, based on that voltage, the ECU knows the exact throttle angle.

A wideband 02 sends volt to an ECU, based on that voltage the ECU knows the exact A/F ratio

A narrow band 02 sends voltage to the ECU, based on that voltage the ECU can only tell if it is at stoichiometry, leaner than stoichiometry or richer than stoichiometry.
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post #31 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 09:01 AM
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i tell anyone who wants to pay attention what i use, try my sig

i am glad you understand that the sensors you cited create a a varying voltage

I am not going to tell you which system will be best for you, just giving you opinions and let you decide

if you think using WBs is better, that is your opinion, and that is fine

however, that opinion becomes more accurate as you accumulate more knowledge on its operation

i will give you an example of how things could get messed up

take the ACT, if its transfer is based on having in the intake runner close to the intake valve, and you move that said sensor to the maf, will the output be correct?

take that example and use it with the WB you want to use.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #32 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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i tell anyone who wants to pay attention what i use, try my sig

i am glad you understand that the sensors you cited create a a varying voltage

I am not going to tell you which system will be best for you, just giving you opinions and let you decide

if you think using WBs is better, that is your opinion, and that is fine

however, that opinion becomes more accurate as you accumulate more knowledge on its operation

i will give you an example of how things could get messed up

take the ACT, if its transfer is based on having in the intake runner close to the intake valve, and you move that said sensor to the maf, will the output be correct?

take that example and use it with the WB you want to use.
People's signs don't show up on my phone.

A simple I use this system and this what I like about said system would be more constructive.

I agree with you on the ACT thing. If any input signal is corrupt it will affect the outputs in a negative way. I think this is true to any engine management system regardless of type.
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post #33 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 02:37 PM
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Sigs show up on my phone (it doesnt you are correct) sorry

Tweecer/eecIV

I am not referring to a corrupt signal, reread what i typed

When talking about a WB location, where would you place them?

Placement is extremely important, how do you know where you placed them, is giving you an accurate measurement?

I am using factory engineered location........
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post #34 of 48 Old 12-07-2018, 05:42 PM Thread Starter
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Sigs show up on my phone (it doesnt you are correct) sorry

Tweecer/eecIV

I am not referring to a corrupt signal, reread what i typed

When talking about a WB location, where would you place them?

Placement is extremely important, how do you know where you placed them, is giving you an accurate measurement?

I am using factory engineered location........
I currently have a wideband on my car now. It is being used as just a gauge. I got it since I didn't trust the FMU setup. It is placed in the x-pipe, If i remember correctly, it's like 18" down from the header collector. I got the gauge from Bob Kurgan years ago and installed it in his recommend spot.

At that time I was going to get one of his mail order tunes, but life got in the way and with the car being drivable as is it got put on the back burner for about a decade haha. He no longer offers that, him like much of the foxbody guys he has moved on to focus more on the coyotes.

I understood what you meant I guess I pharsed it poorly. Yes, sensor placement can cause an inaccurate reading. If I do go with a Pro-M or Holley since the wideband replaces the factory 02s on those systems, I would consult with either place and see if just installing them in the factory locations is what they recommend or if I should put them in a specific location. I know when I watched an installation vid of the Pro-m they did install them in the factory spot.
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post #35 of 48 Old 12-08-2018, 08:53 AM
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And here lies the beuty of tuning

you can put the 02 sensors in a place that you think is the best location

and it still can be inaccurate, which is irrelevant, as long as it is repeatable

therefore you can TUNE, to an a/f that is best for your combo, not a number

you will use the 02 sensor as a reference
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