Is this a normal air:fuel ratio? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 28 Old 09-20-2018, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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Just got my new engine put together. 336 10.5:1, custom cam (225/229) AFR 195s Systemax with long tubes, catted hpipe and stock a9l EEC with bullet 75 calibrated for 36lb injectors. Runs kinda crappy. I know it’s common for complaints like poor idle cold or warm with bigger cams, etc. Haven’t driven it yet so don’t know about drivability but hooked up my AEM wideband and at idle it reads AFR of like 15-17. At times it’s off the chart lean, all I get is - - -. I did AEM’s test for the sensor with brake cleaner and it seemed good. Blip the throttle and it might go to 12:1 briefly so I don’t think there is anything wrong with the gauge but maybe there is? Does that sound normal for stock EEC under this type of situation? Fuel pressure is high 30s at idle. When I ran it open headers it smelled pretty rich to me. Now the hpipe is on so it’s harder to tell. Being that lean might explain why it runs so bad I suppose. I plan to do something to tune it but for now I’m still deciding which way to go. That’s a whole thread on its own. So what do you guys with tuning experience think?

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post #2 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 09:45 AM
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Wideband is in before the cats right? The reading is useless if taken after the cats.

If it is, yes that is too lean for a happy idle. That may not be all the reason that the idle isn't great, but it's going to contribute. Misfires will also read extremely lean but you can smell the raw fuel so the nose isn't always the best judge.


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post #3 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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Wideband is in before the cats right? The reading is useless if taken after the cats.

If it is, yes that is too lean for a happy idle. That may not be all the reason that the idle isn't great, but it's going to contribute. Misfires will also read extremely lean but you can smell the raw fuel so the nose isn't always the best judge.
Oh yeah WB is in the usual spot. I wonder why it’s so lean. I guess I need to drive it around a bit and see how it does with some load on it also.

Maybe a vacuum leak? Would that cause it to run that lean? Has around 10 in at idle which seems a little low but again maybe not for that size cam.
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post #4 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 12:29 PM
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Oh yeah WB is in the usual spot. I wonder why itís so lean. I guess I need to drive it around a bit and see how it does with some load on it also.

Maybe a vacuum leak? Would that cause it to run that lean? Has around 10 in at idle which seems a little low but again maybe not for that size cam.
A vacuum leak will absolutely make it run lean. When you're running a MAF it's imperative that air cannot enter the chambers without passing through the MAF meter. Another cause easily overlooked is if you're running PCV to the intake, but using an atmospheric breather to let fresh air in. That is also bypassing the MAF, so the fresh air into the crankcase needs to come from the air intake system after the MAF.

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post #5 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Oh yeah WB is in the usual spot. I wonder why it’s so lean. I guess I need to drive it around a bit and see how it does with some load on it also.

Maybe a vacuum leak? Would that cause it to run that lean? Has around 10 in at idle which seems a little low but again maybe not for that size cam.

A vacuum leak will absolutely make it run lean. When you're running a MAF it's imperative that air cannot enter the chambers without passing through the MAF meter. Another cause easily overlooked is if you're running PCV to the intake, but using an atmospheric breather to let fresh air in. That is also bypassing the MAF, so the fresh air into the crankcase needs to come from the air intake system after the MAF.
Yeah no breather. Put a 460 pcv in since some people on this site say it helps reduce oil getting into the intake. Hell if I know.

What’s the best way to detect a leak? I checked all the lines with a mityvac. Everything seems tight and sealed elsewhere. Don’t people spray carb cleaner around the engine and wait for revs to rise? It seems the eec would detect the lean condition and fatten it up though it has only been run a couple times so maybe it doesn’t react that quick?
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post #6 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 03:14 PM
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Yeah no breather. Put a 460 pcv in since some people on this site say it helps reduce oil getting into the intake. Hell if I know.

Whatís the best way to detect a leak? I checked all the lines with a mityvac. Everything seems tight and sealed elsewhere. Donít people spray carb cleaner around the engine and wait for revs to rise? It seems the eec would detect the lean condition and fatten it up though it has only been run a couple times so maybe it doesnít react that quick?
It will trim things over time but it works under a lot of assumptions that you are breaking, assuming you don't have the EEC customized somehow.

Yeah one way to test for vacuum leaks is spraying carb or brake cleaner along all intake gasket seams and all vacuum lines, the engine will rev up if you find one. Personally I prefer using a smoke tester. It fills the intake with baby oil smoke under light pressure and you'll see the smoke rise up out of any leaks. It's more fun to sit in a lawn chair with a beer for 20 minutes watching for smoke than bent over an engine that runs like crap spraying flammable aerosols and wondering if you found all the places to test.

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post #7 of 28 Old 09-21-2018, 05:40 PM
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Just got my new engine put together. 336 10.5:1, custom cam (225/229) AFR 195s Systemax with long tubes, catted hpipe and stock a9l EEC with bullet 75 calibrated for 36lb injectors. Runs kinda crappy. I know itís common for complaints like poor idle cold or warm with bigger cams, etc. Havenít driven it yet so donít know about drivability but hooked up my AEM wideband and at idle it reads AFR of like 15-17. At times itís off the chart lean, all I get is - - -. I did AEMís test for the sensor with brake cleaner and it seemed good. Blip the throttle and it might go to 12:1 briefly so I donít think there is anything wrong with the gauge but maybe there is? Does that sound normal for stock EEC under this type of situation? Fuel pressure is high 30s at idle. When I ran it open headers it smelled pretty rich to me. Now the hpipe is on so itís harder to tell. Being that lean might explain why it runs so bad I suppose. I plan to do something to tune it but for now Iím still deciding which way to go. Thatís a whole thread on its own. So what do you guys with tuning experience think?
WAS the engine at operating temp, 200f?
Reading wb numbers is useless unless you can see what the ecm is commanding

A cold start, the ecm can command 11-12, and the wb will read 14-15, it takes more fuel at cold start

You need to look at fuel trims to see what is happening, as the ecm uses the nb informed not wb

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post #8 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post

WAS the engine at operating temp, 200f?
Reading wb numbers is useless unless you can see what the ecm is commanding

A cold start, the ecm can command 11-12, and the wb will read 14-15, it takes more fuel at cold start

You need to look at fuel trims to see what is happening, as the ecm uses the nb informed not wb
Well it was at operating temp and up to it as well. It’s a factory tuned a9l. I have no idea what it’s supposed to be. That’s why I started this thread.
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post #9 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 12:57 AM
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fuel trims should be near zero

if the command lambse is the same as WB, then your fueling is good

if not, then you need to correct the fueling

quite simple

stock tune a9l has the wrong injector data, and you are using a trickery maf

i suspect it should not run very well.

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post #10 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 10:18 AM
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OP the ECU isn't commanding 17:1 at idle, so yeah you're lean like you think you are. 1st thing is make sure all the air getting in the engine is getting there through the MAF.

Barring that as the problem, I would suggest some solution that allows you to tune either that ECU or a different ECU that you can tune.


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post #11 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 11:19 AM Thread Starter
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OP the ECU isn't commanding 17:1 at idle, so yeah you're lean like you think you are. 1st thing is make sure all the air getting in the engine is getting there through the MAF.

Barring that as the problem, I would suggest some solution that allows you to tune either that ECU or a different ECU that you can tune.
Ok I just didn’t know what the computer would be shooting for as it could be lean for emissions purposes or something, hell if I know. I need to work on a smoke tester. Found some diy ideas on YouTube.

As for tuning I have a quarter horse that I tried 5 years ago but couldn’t get it working right so just unhooked it and gave up. I might be willing to go there again but maybe try deciphas a9l2 tune or get some other help. I’ve also been looking at the pro m and Holley, haltech, AEM, pimpxs etc. I’ll have to start a new thread for that. I’ve got some specific needs for a new ecu that most don’t care about.
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Ok I just didnít know what the computer would be shooting for as it could be lean for emissions purposes or something, hell if I know. I need to work on a smoke tester. Found some diy ideas on YouTube.

As for tuning I have a quarter horse that I tried 5 years ago but couldnít get it working right so just unhooked it and gave up. I might be willing to go there again but maybe try deciphas a9l2 tune or get some other help. Iíve also been looking at the pro m and Holley, haltech, AEM, pimpxs etc. Iíll have to start a new thread for that. Iíve got some specific needs for a new ecu that most donít care about.
you can download binary editor or tuner pro

get the stock a9l bin and gufb strategy

for free you can actually look what the ecm is commanding at various conditions

it will give you a rough idea

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post #13 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Ok I just didn’t know what the computer would be shooting for as it could be lean for emissions purposes or something, hell if I know. I need to work on a smoke tester. Found some diy ideas on YouTube.

As for tuning I have a quarter horse that I tried 5 years ago but couldn’t get it working right so just unhooked it and gave up. I might be willing to go there again but maybe try deciphas a9l2 tune or get some other help. I’ve also been looking at the pro m and Holley, haltech, AEM, pimpxs etc. I’ll have to start a new thread for that. I’ve got some specific needs for a new ecu that most don’t care about.
you can download binary editor or tuner pro

get the stock a9l bin and gufb strategy

for free you can actually look what the ecm is commanding at various conditions

it will give you a rough idea
So way back when I bought the QH I tried all that and followed all the instructions I could find and the car would barely start or idle and wouldn’t rev beyond maybe 1500. The fuel pump also ran constantly when the key was on which I have read means something is wrong (well yeah!). I pulled it out and then never got back to it. 🤷‍♂️

Half way assumed that since I had done exactly what the directions said that maybe it was a hardware issue.
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post #14 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 07:49 PM
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You may also want to try clocking the MAF, or if you have anything aftermarket going on before the MAF putting stock stuff on if possible is also worth trying. A MAF meter is somewhat particular about the airflow since it's only taking a sample from the stream, there's an assumption that the sample is representative of the stream as a whole. It's not too difficult to make this not true.

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post #15 of 28 Old 09-22-2018, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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You may also want to try clocking the MAF, or if you have anything aftermarket going on before the MAF putting stock stuff on if possible is also worth trying. A MAF meter is somewhat particular about the airflow since it's only taking a sample from the stream, there's an assumption that the sample is representative of the stream as a whole. It's not too difficult to make this not true.
Everything forward of the TB is stock except the MAF. And I had pro m calibrate it for that. 🤷‍♂️
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post #16 of 28 Old 09-23-2018, 12:00 AM
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So way back when I bought the QH I tried all that and followed all the instructions I could find and the car would barely start or idle and wouldnít rev beyond maybe 1500. The fuel pump also ran constantly when the key was on which I have read means something is wrong (well yeah!). I pulled it out and then never got back to it. 🤷‍♂️

Half way assumed that since I had done exactly what the directions said that maybe it was a hardware issue.
good

then pay someone to make it run right

you obviously do not have the time or patience to deal with tuning

no biggie, just open the wallet and hope.

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post #17 of 28 Old 09-23-2018, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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Don’t know if anyone is still following here.

I made a smoker. I have small leaks through the TPS and coming out between the electronics and the air meter housing and coming from the oil fill cap. All 3 leak pretty minimally so I don’t know how significant they are.
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post #18 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 07:47 AM
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Maybe, maybe not. The TPS would be most concerning, followed by the oil fill cap. The MAF, not at idle, maybe at WOT though.

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post #19 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe, maybe not. The TPS would be most concerning, followed by the oil fill cap. The MAF, not at idle, maybe at WOT though.
I tried 2 caps. Both don’t tightly seal. The TPS is new. If you look at them everyone except Ford makes them with a hole that goes all the way through. I’ve got an old Ford one I’ll put on. That may do it.

I’m kind of with you on the MAF. At low flow it won’t contribute much to what is going in the engine as the meter and filter are basically 0 restriction. At high flow it’s likely too small to make a lot of difference compared with what’s going through the meter. 🤷‍♂️

Also decided new O2 sensors couldn’t hurt. So we’ll try that as well. Battery on my QH tested good (not bad for 5 years) so I’ll get a hold of Moates and see if they’ll honor my old BE license. I’ve reloaded Windows on that laptop at least once since then.
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post #20 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 03:41 PM
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You can take the oil cap out of the equation by capping off the PCV vacuum for now.

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post #21 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 08:43 PM
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I tried 2 caps. Both donít tightly seal. The TPS is new. If you look at them everyone except Ford makes them with a hole that goes all the way through. Iíve got an old Ford one Iíll put on. That may do it.

Iím kind of with you on the MAF. At low flow it wonít contribute much to what is going in the engine as the meter and filter are basically 0 restriction. At high flow itís likely too small to make a lot of difference compared with whatís going through the meter. 🤷‍♂️

Also decided new O2 sensors couldnít hurt. So weíll try that as well. Battery on my QH tested good (not bad for 5 years) so Iíll get a hold of Moates and see if theyíll honor my old BE license. Iíve reloaded Windows on that laptop at least once since then.
you are at a crossroad

you can use BE or you can use tuner pro

tuner pro is very good, and you will have decipha's knowledge to help as that is what he uses

tuner pro is free

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post #22 of 28 Old 10-01-2018, 04:24 PM Thread Starter
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Ok something seems wrong. I dl’d TunerPro and gufb and deciphas adx and tried to load the factory tune via the QH. Per instructions I turned the key to on in order to “read chip” which it did, but the fuel pump ran the whole time. It’s not supposed to do that is it?

Also when I look at the MAF transfer table it has 30 entries all of which are 16 volts and 20763.71 kg/hr. That also seems wrong...
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Also, I opened deciphas a9l2 and I’m getting the same thing. Injector slopes are 112. What am I missing here?
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Ok something seems wrong. I dlíd TunerPro and gufb and deciphas adx and tried to load the factory tune via the QH. Per instructions I turned the key to on in order to ďread chipĒ which it did, but the fuel pump ran the whole time. Itís not supposed to do that is it?

Also when I look at the MAF transfer table it has 30 entries all of which are 16 volts and 20763.71 kg/hr. That also seems wrong...
why would you read the chip?

two forum sites now........

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post #25 of 28 Old 10-01-2018, 07:48 PM
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Also, I opened deciphas a9l2 and Iím getting the same thing. Injector slopes are 112. What am I missing here?
opened in what?

you know you have to actually add your specific info?

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post #26 of 28 Old 10-01-2018, 08:07 PM Thread Starter
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Also, I opened deciphas a9l2 and I’m getting the same thing. Injector slopes are 112. What am I missing here?
opened in what?
Both the bin I thought I saved from my a9l and deciphas a9l2 were opened in TunerPro. But I’m not sure the factory “tune” or settings or whatever were even saved or if that’s even how it works. This is why I’m asking. Clearly missing something.


And yes, 2 sites because of the quality of “help” I’m finding here...
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Both the bin I thought I saved from my a9l and deciphas a9l2 were opened in TunerPro. But Iím not sure the factory ďtuneĒ or settings or whatever were even saved or if thatís even how it works. This is why Iím asking. Clearly missing something.


And yes, 2 sites because of the quality of ďhelpĒ Iím finding here...
you need to do some leg work

read the instructions on it

you need to know the basics

how to


read
write
save
compare
you need to know the key words and definitions:strategy, catch codes
etc

if you cannot do those things, tuning is going to go nowhere

start here

load the correct strategy....gufb, gufx, cbaza whatever it is
then you open the calibration(tune) a9l, a9p, x3z whatever it is

they need to be correctly matched

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post #28 of 28 Old 08-12-2019, 01:40 AM
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Call Chris over at Pro-M, give him your credit card number and thank me later, donít even ask what it costs, itís worth it trust me...
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