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post #1 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
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ignition control

I'm wrapping up my blowthrough carb setup, SBF/5.0 MSD 6530 programmable ignition. I've got an 85GT duraspark distributor, centrifugal and vacuum advance are disabled. Could I have just used my EFI distributor set at say 32° and let the MSD control timing?


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post #2 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 09:44 AM
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is the msd expecting a

VRS

or

hall signal?


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post #3 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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It can use hall signal for sure, I need to read up on what VRS is, magnetic pickup?

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post #4 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 12:07 PM
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vrs, is sine wave

hall is a digital square wave

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post #5 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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I have the wiring instructions for the duraspark distributor. I see online it can be used with the EFI distributor as well. I'm just digging around to see if the EFI distributor will work with without the factory ECM, and use the MSD to control ignition timing. I need to look through some schematics.

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post #6 of 36 Old 06-09-2018, 04:08 PM
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factory ecm is not needed, the ICM is totally autonomous it makes the spark

the ecm is only used for changing the timing

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post #7 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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MSD tech says this won't work. Here's the layout of the things module, don't know why I couldn't wire to and from the plug to make the MSD box get the correct signal.

-Pip out
-Spout in
-Start signal in
-Run power in
-Coil negative
-Ignition ground

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post #8 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 06:23 PM
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what wont work?

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post #9 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, MSD tech says there is no way to make a Ford TFI distributor work with the MSD 6530 ignition without the presence of the Ford ECM itself.

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post #10 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 07:55 PM
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if you want the spark to advance and retard, yes you need the ecm

the digital msd uses the digital input, like the SPOUT output, where as the non digital will use the sine wave


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post #11 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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The MSD 6530 is fully programmable, with run curves, boost retard curves, ect. There are wiring instructions for the 87-93 mustangs, but does not show anything with the distributor, since it's designed to be used with an ECM. So....I'm looking into making a harness to make this work. The Ford TFI distributor seems to be a much higher quality piece than the duraspark unit I'm currently using.

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post #12 of 36 Old 08-30-2018, 10:52 PM
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it takes a digital input

that input needs to be satisfied

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post #13 of 36 Old 08-31-2018, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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The MSD 6530 using can accept hall effect. Or are there digital and analog sine wave? I've been doing some reading about electrical wave forms, it's actually pretty interesting.

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post #14 of 36 Old 08-31-2018, 06:10 PM
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the digital msd needs to have a digital input to tell it to advance or retard

the tfi does NOT do that, the ecm does

so if you don't car for advance or retard, just use the PIP output

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post #15 of 36 Old 09-01-2018, 02:00 AM Thread Starter
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I see, advance and retard functions are a must. So in short, yes it would work, just not the way I need it to.

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post #16 of 36 Old 09-01-2018, 10:20 AM
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Did you post that the digital msg has programmable advance and retard?

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post #17 of 36 Old 09-01-2018, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, my MSD is the digital 6AL2 programmable. I can program run timing curves, start retard curve, boost retard curves via map sensor.

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post #18 of 36 Old 09-01-2018, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
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The CMP sensor inside the distributor responds to a rotating metallic shutter on the distributor and produces a digital PIP signal. ... The SPOUT signal is an acronym for SPark OUTput, a digital signal generated by the PCM. The falling edge of SPOUT is ignored by the ICM.


I found this but couldn't copy the link, I could only download the entire PDF file. If the PIP signal is digital like this states, couldn't I use the pip for signal output to the MSD box. MSD box would then control timing curves?

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post #19 of 36 Old 09-02-2018, 01:43 PM
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I cannot see why not, it will be static at whatever you set the distributor base at

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post #20 of 36 Old 09-02-2018, 02:38 PM
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The PIP output is open collector. All it does is pull to ground. The Ford engine control has a pull up resistor.

You can make it any voltage you want within reason, depending on what you want it to pull up to, but you have to use falling edge for trigger. You cannot use the rising edge because of the cam sync gap.

I'm not sure if your MSD allows a falling edge, but you can very easily invert the PIP with an NPN transistor. Then the rising edge would be the trigger, like points.

My page has some waveforms and such....

Distributor Stabbing and Operation


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post #21 of 36 Old 09-02-2018, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomR View Post
The PIP output is open collector. All it does is pull to ground. The Ford engine control has a pull up resistor.

You can make it any voltage you want within reason, depending on what you want it to pull up to, but you have to use falling edge for trigger. You cannot use the rising edge because of the cam sync gap.

I'm not sure if your MSD allows a falling edge, but you can very easily invert the PIP with an NPN transistor. Then the rising edge would be the trigger, like points.

My page has some waveforms and such....

Distributor Stabbing and Operation
Came to reply and ya beat me to the punch.
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post #22 of 36 Old 09-03-2018, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
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Neat, I understand how the waveforms are, and the need for the NPN transistor (if MSD box can't use falling edge) I'm not clear yet on where to add the transistor to the PIP.

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post #23 of 36 Old 09-03-2018, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
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Neat, I understand how the waveforms are, and the need for the NPN transistor (if MSD box can't use falling edge) I'm not clear yet on where to add the transistor to the PIP.
Use the falling edge of the PIP to switch the transistor giving you an inverted signal/rising edge for the MSD.
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post #24 of 36 Old 09-03-2018, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Use the falling edge of the PIP to switch the transistor giving you an inverted signal/rising edge for the MSD.
Yes, but physically where does it go.

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post #25 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostup89 View Post
Yes, but physically where does it go.
Hmm, this questions means something isn't what you think it is but I'm having difficulty deciphering what.

Just to sum up. The shutter wheel in the distributor has physical rising and falling edges. The leading edge is falling, it is your crank signal and is regular while the trailing edge is rising, it is the cam signal and is irregular. The TFI provides this digitally and that digital representation we call the PIP. In a perfect world you'd just send the PIP directly to your MSD and program the MSD to use the regular falling edge, but the MSD can't be programmed like that and uses rising edge only. So you need to invert the signal so your regular signal is rising. To do this you condition the PIP signal by passing it through the NPN transistor first. Then the inverted signal output from the transistor goes to the MSD.

If there's some part in this summary you don't know how to do, highlight it and I can explain it further.
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post #26 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Where do I install the NPN transistor? All the transistors I see have 3 terminals.

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post #27 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
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Where do I install the NPN transistor? All the transistors I see have 3 terminals.
I see. It will intercept the PIP signal, it's a lot like hooking up a relay. The PIP signal will instead control the transistor on the Base, the transistor will draw 12v power at the Emitter and will show that 12V to the MSD using the Collector. The MSD will only see the 12v when the Base is grounded. So as the PIP signal goes low into the Base, you'll go High at the transistor's Collector. This is how you use the transistor to invert the signal.

We said NPN before but I think PNP makes more sense? Here's a diagram I stole from google and tweaked in paint. I'm not an electrical engineer though so there's probably a better way but I'm pretty sure this will work and at least very confident it won't cause damage even if it doesn't work because there really isn't any current involved here.

EDIT: Added a 100k 1/4 watt resistor across the Emitter and Base to ensure off is off.

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File Type: png pnp to invert pip.png (49.7 KB, 35 views)

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post #28 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, that's pretty much what I was looking for, the next thing is, what size of transistor would be needed, there's a few hundred different ones out there, LoL.

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post #29 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 05:08 PM
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This is all logical level stuff, no real current so you don't need anything of size. A 2N3906 is a staple PNP through-hole transistor.

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post #30 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 06:21 PM
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Technically, that's a pull down not a pull up.
This would be a pull up with an NPN open collector (much more common).


My DIYPNPF60 has the TFI circuit on the connector board.
No schematic, but description:

DIYPNP Ford 60 Pin Adapter Board Assembly
We've put a little step-up circuit on the F60 adapter board for TFI ignition control. This takes the 5 volt IGN signal, inverts it, and steps it up to 12 volts for TFI distributors.

I'll have to find the BOM for Q1A, R1A, R2A. Not shown on my BOM.
I think it's the following:
Q1A - 2N2222A
R1A, R2A - 1K 1/4W resistor

Circuit is in lower left corner of ECU.

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File Type: jpg IMG_1337.jpg (150.4 KB, 4 views)

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post #31 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 06:48 PM
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It's not a pull anything, it's just a ground triggered switching of 12v with the PIP flipping the switch.

EDIT: Do you even need a transistor to do this with a pull-up? Just run the PIP directly to the MSD and "T" in a 1k ohm resistor to 12v.

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post #32 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 07:00 PM
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I was using TomR's description: The PIP output is open collector. All it does is pull to ground. The Ford engine control has a pull up resistor.

For an NPN, one resistor connects 12V to the collector, the other resistor connects from the ignition to the base. The emitter is connected to ground. The output is at the collector.



EDIT: without knowing what's circuitry is in that MSD, can't say for sure if no transistor will work.
$400, that's crazy. I'd sell it.
https://www.holley.com/products/igni...rip/parts/6530

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post #33 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 07:06 PM
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Yeah you can use an NPN with a pull up, or use a PNP as a switch. Or just try a direct pull-up to 12v with 1k resistor.
That's probably what I would try first. Whatever floats your boat!

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post #34 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 07:17 PM
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NPN's are 100 times more common. I think it has something to do with the fabrication process being much easier.
Electrical Engineering 401 (too long ago for me to remember details).
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws...or/tran_1.html

If you're in to solid state physics, that's basically what it is.

Too technical for here, but...
Also, all the polarities for a PNP transistor are reversed which means that it “sinks” current into its Base as opposed to the NPN transistor which “sources” current through its Base. The main difference between the two types of transistors is that holes are the more important carriers for PNP transistors, whereas electrons are the important carriers for NPN transistors.

EDIT:
Don, I send you a PM on 06-28-2018. Either you missed the email notification or something else. Wasn't all that important, title was Fuel Injectors. Wherever you were, good to have you back.

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post #35 of 36 Old 09-04-2018, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe I'll just get by the rest of the year with the MSD ignition and duraspark distributor. Then start working on a Megajolt EDIS system.

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