What do I need to tune my rebuilt 302 with the 2.1 Kenne Bell? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 05-03-2018, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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What do I need to tune my rebuilt 302 with the 2.1 Kenne Bell?

Hello all,

Just like the title says, I am looking for some guidance on the best way to tune my kenne bell set up.

I have a rebuilt 302 bored .020 over, edelbrock performer aluminum heads, roller rockers, B303 cam, 42 lb. injectors, 255lph fuel pump. The Kenne Bell going on it is an old version 2.1 without the flowzilla inlet.

Am I better off finding a local guy to tune it locally via a chip? Or what would be a good starting point?

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post #2 of 22 Old 05-03-2018, 10:36 AM
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Better off going to a reputable shop and have them do it if you do not have tuning knowledge. It is a lot to learn trust me. LOL

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post #3 of 22 Old 05-03-2018, 10:59 AM
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There are many different ways to attack this. The most popular methods are of similar cost currently so a lot of it boils down to how involved you want to be in the process.

buying a chip and getting a local custom tune typically costs somewhere around 800-1000 from what I remember. This involves nearly nothing on your end and typically produces good results if you live in an area with good tuners. You'll pay a fee anytime you change the setup and you'll be at the mercy of the tuner's schedule, but it's the easiest method.

Buying a piggyback or stock ECU tuning system will probably cost anywhere from 500-800. This would allow you to either tune it yourself, if that is something you want to dive into (decently steep learning curve), or again pay a tuner to do it (add $400+). This is decent option as it allows you to change the setup without always having to buy matched MAF's and injectors, and often times produces good driveability pretty easily.

Buying a standalone is another popular method that will cost anywhere from 600-3000, of course depending on how many features and what brands you buy. They typically allow full control over every engine parameter and much more flexibility with tuning strategies, which greatly increases the difficulty of tuning so you'll either have to pay a tuner (add $400+) or you'll have to really want to learn how to tune an engine. Lots of people try this and fail but it's extremely rewarding and convenient if you actually learn it.

A couple standalone systems out there give you most/all of that flexibility but don't require the tuning aspect. You pay for the ease of use though, at roughly $2500 starting.

That's my quick attempt at a basic explanation of options. Again, just gonna boil down to how involved you want to be in the tuning process, or maybe your budget.
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post #4 of 22 Old 05-03-2018, 11:25 PM
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Tweecer RT or moates quarterhorse. I had fairly good luck using a Tweecer RT and decipha's A9L2 tune. I only needed to change some injector info and a few other things. But yes be prepared for a steep learning curve. EFIDynoTuning

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post #5 of 22 Old 05-05-2018, 12:41 AM
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Megasquirt 2 Plug and Play or Microsquirt works very well.
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post #6 of 22 Old 05-05-2018, 06:46 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for the input! Very much appreciated! Thank you 5.0thunder for clarifying the options I have on hand. It was very helpful.

To answer your question: how involved do I want to be in the process? I think I could run with anything. Actually I think I just want the most convenient way to tune it without denting the wallet too much. I do not want to pay $2500 for a stand alone system. I have seen a couple of those on the internet, pretty cool, but not something that I'd like to spend on. I suppose I would like to stick with a budget of $1,000. I dont want to spend too much when I am already drooling over the coyotes! LOL

So that brings me to the next dilemma:

I do not have much of tuning knowledge, but I think it is manageable with my computer skills/knowledge. I am not all that scared to tackle the tuning part, but I guess now my question is it all worth it to learn and spend on all that stuff and probably still not have the 100% perfect tune versus taking it to a tuner? (I am just assuming that we, DIYers, would not have the 100% perfect tune unless we have a dyno that we can run the testing? I know we can run the testing by driving it with the tuning software running on the laptop in the car, but is it really the same as a real dyno run/tune, where they measure all of the air/fuel stuff including the tailpipe monitoring?

There is Woodbine Motorsports in Woodbine, MD, which is kind of local to me. Joseph Jones runs the shop and he tuned my F-150 Harley Davidson with some supporting mods in the past. I did not have any issues other than idle problem for a short time which we promptly solved. I am located in Washington DC if you all were wondering.

Thanks again for the inputs!
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post #7 of 22 Old 05-05-2018, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Oh and I wanted to bring up another point:

I do not want to pay the shop to install the supporting mods because I can/enjoy doing them no problem and that would rack up the bill quickly. I am wondering how do I go from my house to the tuner if I do not have any base chip/tune for the mods I am putting into my motor? I suppose my fox wont run properly once I put in the 42 lb. injectors? I could have it towed to the shop but that wont be cheap due to Woodbine being 52 miles away from DC.

I think I will go ahead and reach out Joseph to see what he has to say about this.
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post #8 of 22 Old 05-06-2018, 08:57 AM
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After battling tuning my car and relying on a 30+ year old computer and EFI system I put a Holley HP EFI in my 358 T-Trim. By far the best thing I’ve ever done. You might want to look into it and really concider it. The tuning options are endless and it’s user friendly. I concider it cheap insurance for my motor because the failsafes built into it are great as well. Something to concider!! My car has never behaved and driven better!!

Stock block 306, V1 T-trim, AFM B-451 cam, TFS Twisted Wedge, Holley Systemax, A1000, Snow Meth, TKO 600, Team Z, Strange, MM, Lakewood and Moser helps me go forward fast.
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post #9 of 22 Old 05-06-2018, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBeaver View Post
Oh and I wanted to bring up another point:

I do not want to pay the shop to install the supporting mods because I can/enjoy doing them no problem and that would rack up the bill quickly. I am wondering how do I go from my house to the tuner if I do not have any base chip/tune for the mods I am putting into my motor? I suppose my fox wont run properly once I put in the 42 lb. injectors? I could have it towed to the shop but that wont be cheap due to Woodbine being 52 miles away from DC.

I think I will go ahead and reach out Joseph to see what he has to say about this.
On this, personally I would have it towed in. Common sense to me. You’d be pretty upset if something were to happen on the drive over. If the car even makes it. Then you’ll kick yourself in the ass for not getting a tow.

Stock block 306, V1 T-trim, AFM B-451 cam, TFS Twisted Wedge, Holley Systemax, A1000, Snow Meth, TKO 600, Team Z, Strange, MM, Lakewood and Moser helps me go forward fast.
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post #10 of 22 Old 05-06-2018, 12:02 PM
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JCBeaver,

a dyno is NOT needed for tuning

in fact, you are going to have all your trouble with drive ability at NON WOT conditions

part throttle transitions and closed throttle are THE hardest.......

make no mistake, if you tune yourself, it can take 100s of hours of logging if you are not up to speed on how the strategy works

you will spend 100s in fuel going no where, trying to tune

you run the risk of ruining your engine

i suggest your most econo method is the stock ecm and tuning device

there are no cheap shortcuts in tuning, tuners want to get paid, and they know when they are good, and charge top dollar.......and so they should.

just a few hints, good luck


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #11 of 22 Old 05-07-2018, 11:22 AM
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Pro m efi
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post #12 of 22 Old 05-07-2018, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBeaver View Post
I do not want to pay $2500 for a stand alone system.
Lol
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post #13 of 22 Old 05-07-2018, 05:48 PM
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I have a Kenne Bell 2.1L Flowzilla supercharged 5.0 and I run a stand alone Stinger Pimp ECU. You'll need a wideband (you'll need one regardless of tuning platform). I'm running 11psi and I love it. The tuning is relatively easy to figure out but it can be intimidating at first. I had a buddy help me out over the phone for initial start up/idle. Heck, I could give you my base tune since I'm running 42# injects and the same fuel pump.

-Matt

Kenne Bell Flowzilla supercharged & IRS swapped 90' LX 5.0
PiMP Engine Management
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post #14 of 22 Old 05-08-2018, 05:57 AM
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Lol
Then go old school. Set dizzy at 8 btdc, get an afpr, an msd with boost retard. Set spark plugs Gap at .027

I didn't see that you were running the b303 cam,. In that case, the b cam is a standalone by itself. No tuning needed.

If you have a hunting/surging problem after all that, you have fuel issues or a vacuum leak. A tune is a band aid.

Put it together correctly with good parts and I can guarantee it will run well. There might be some hp to be found with some tweaking of the fuel/spark tables but people who go to a tuner have other issues with their setup. Making them think they need a tune. Been there before.

$2500 is a steep price for a standalone I agree but it's worth every phucking penny.

Gl
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post #15 of 22 Old 05-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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JCBeaver,

a dyno is NOT needed for tuning

in fact, you are going to have all your trouble with drive ability at NON WOT conditions
A load bearing dyno (AKA a steady state dyno) can do a lot towards getting the non-WOT part of the map dialed in. However, some things such as acceleration enrichment are not generally tuned on a dyno.

Also, keep in mind the spark map is often the real secret to getting best power and drivability. You can get the full throttle timing dialed in by data logging at a dragstrip if you have no other resources; part throttle is really tough to get spot-on without a load bearing dyno.

Matt Cramer
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post #16 of 22 Old 05-11-2018, 05:14 PM
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i'll say transient fueling is more critical than spark for drive abilty

the dyno you speak has its limitations where as driving normally on the street does not

think parking

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #17 of 22 Old 05-15-2018, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbody817 View Post
I have a Kenne Bell 2.1L Flowzilla supercharged 5.0 and I run a stand alone Stinger Pimp ECU. You'll need a wideband (you'll need one regardless of tuning platform). I'm running 11psi and I love it. The tuning is relatively easy to figure out but it can be intimidating at first. I had a buddy help me out over the phone for initial start up/idle. Heck, I could give you my base tune since I'm running 42# injects and the same fuel pump.
I am leaning towards Stinger Pump ECU as well and I will definitely hit you up for the base tune if I get it. Which wideband did you get? Thanks
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post #18 of 22 Old 05-15-2018, 11:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
A load bearing dyno (AKA a steady state dyno) can do a lot towards getting the non-WOT part of the map dialed in. However, some things such as acceleration enrichment are not generally tuned on a dyno.

Also, keep in mind the spark map is often the real secret to getting best power and drivability. You can get the full throttle timing dialed in by data logging at a dragstrip if you have no other resources; part throttle is really tough to get spot-on without a load bearing dyno.
Quote:
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i'll say transient fueling is more critical than spark for drive abilty

the dyno you speak has its limitations where as driving normally on the street does not

think parking

Well noted! Thanks!
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post #19 of 22 Old 05-17-2018, 10:13 AM
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I am leaning towards Stinger Pump ECU as well and I will definitely hit you up for the base tune if I get it. Which wideband did you get? Thanks
I got this and I love it. No more "fresh air" calibrations and tricky wiring.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/AVM-30-4110

-Matt

Kenne Bell Flowzilla supercharged & IRS swapped 90' LX 5.0
PiMP Engine Management
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post #20 of 22 Old 05-18-2018, 12:17 PM
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I'm a big fan of the spartan widebands.

https://www.14point7.com/products/sp...a-controller-2

I used to use Innovate and did for a long time. They worked, I could get the job done, but they always gave me some trouble with noise. After trying the spartans I'm never looking back.

I have no experience with the AEM stuff.
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post #21 of 22 Old 05-25-2018, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
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I'm a big fan of the spartan widebands.

https://www.14point7.com/products/sp...a-controller-2

I used to use Innovate and did for a long time. They worked, I could get the job done, but they always gave me some trouble with noise. After trying the spartans I'm never looking back.

I have no experience with the AEM stuff.
This looks like an awesome unit that is made for megasquirt set up. So it is not entirely necessary to run a gauge for AFR? I am undecided on the gauges for now and this unit does not come with a gauge. I suppose during the testing I will be able to read the AFR on the laptop, correct?

Thanks
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post #22 of 22 Old 07-05-2018, 04:14 PM
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You don’t want to spend $2500 but you will eventually, pay now or pay later, I laugh every time I read one of these threads, buy a Pro-M and be done with it, never pay a tuner, make all the changes you want and never pay for a re tune or complain about part throttle issues, I just dont get it, I’m glad I bought one and all the other people are as well, it’s actually paid for itself with all the changes I’ve made to my car, god knows us car people never change anything so that $500 tune plus whatever the chip that was invented back in the 90’s cost you will last forever, it’s 2000 and 18 open your eyes and wake up!!! Or go find someone to “tune” your car, lol, good luck with that!!!
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