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post #1 of 31 Old 12-31-2016, 02:31 AM Thread Starter
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C&L Tuning Question

Guys or Gals,

I am in the middle of installing a Paxton Novi 1220SL in my 93 fox. I have decided to not use the fuel management unit that comes with this kit, and have opted to build up my fuel system instead so I have room to grow. I have installed bigger injectors, as well as put in a more powerful fuel pump. I am also thinking about getting a Megasquirt ECU to begin learning how to tune my own setup. I have a question for all you tuners out there about the MAF though. I previously purchased and installed a C&L 76mm MAF housing with a 19lb sample tube. This worked great for my mild build at the time, however, I am not sure if this MAF can be tuned for the bigger injectors I have now installed. I know nothing about tuning yet, but it seems to me that if the MAF housing is taking in more air, but faking out the ECU to work with the 19lb injectors, I could run into trouble trying to tune the the ECU with this MAF housing and sample tube of for the 47lb injectors I have now installed. My question is, can the C&L be tuned for the 47lb injectors at the ECU without changing the sample tube (keeping the 19lb sample tube installed), or do I need a new MAF? If I do need a new MAF, what do you reccomend, or should I go back to the stock one for now? Thanks.


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post #2 of 31 Old 12-31-2016, 12:01 PM
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The C&L with the 19# sampling tube will not be able to support the power 47# injectors are capable of supporting. The C&L will peg or stop reading the amount of air entering the engine. Same thing for the stock fox body maf. I use a PMAS maf and am very happy with it. The lightning maf and a Pro-M maf are also popular.


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post #3 of 31 Old 12-31-2016, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for your response Paulie. I do appreciate it. I have a couple more questions on this that have just popped in my head based on your response, and also based on my desire to learn about tuneing. Any help you could provide answering any of these would be awesome, as it is hard to learn this stuff just by reading on the internet. It is very easy to get confused.

First, let me explain my setup and thought process. My mods thus far are pretty simple. I have installed BBK long tube headers, a BBK off road x pipe, Magnaflow catback exhaust, Explorer intake, 65mm TB and spacer, and switched to an electric fan. Prior to my decision to install the blower, I was also running a March ram air kit feeding the 76mm C&L MAF (19lb sample tube) and C&L cast aluminum intake pipe. As stated above, I am now installing a Paxton Novi 1220SL, not using the FMU, and have installed the 47lb EV6 injectors with adaptors, as well as a Walbro 255 fuel pump. I have never been to a dyno (yes, I am a newbie), but know that I will need a tune. My estimates for wheel horsepower after the install (and by all means correct me if I am way off) is 320ish. I specifically bought the 47lb injectors so I have room to grow. Those suckers are expensive, and for a guy with a wife, to little kids, and a mortgage, I need to save my $$$, and don't want to keep buying injectors everytime I upgrade. According to a chart I found on LMRs website, these injectors will support 492 HP at the crank @ 85% duty cycle with forced induction applications. So here are my questions:

1. Why will the 19lb sample tube not support the power the 47lb injectors are capable of? I guess I am not understanding how this works.

2. Will the 19lb sample tube work in the meantime for my current setup (the 320ish hp this novi might get me), or would buying a bigger sample tube do the trick? Say for instance buying a sample tube for 42lb injectors (The biggest sample tube C&L apparently makes is 42lb), and tune the ECU from that starting point. I'm trying to save money right now because I just dropped a couple grand on the Novi. I think my wife would kill me if I needed to spend another couple hundred on another MAF right now.

3. Is question number two absurd, and more of a headache than I need. I would like to keep this simple. If I do install a Megasquirt and try to tune this car myself on the street. Will using the C&L with sample tubes only confuse the hell of me more. Should I just buck up and buy a new MAF.

4.What is the difference between the MAFs you suggested and the C&L. Do they not have a tube at all? How are they tuned?

5. Finally, should I forget the Megasquirt for now, and just get this car professionally tuned at a dyno? My buddy thinks I should try the Megasquirt and learn how to tune so I save money in the long run. I personally am worried about screwing something up and not having this car running in the spring. If I do go to the dyno in the spring, will they be able to tune the C&L with the 19lb sample tube for my current setup, or will they send me away?

Thanks so much.

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post #4 of 31 Old 01-01-2017, 03:08 PM
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1) A maf measures the amount of air entering the engine. It does this by passing the air through a small passage or sampling tube. The calibration or sampling tube will determine the maximum amount of air the maf can measure. The ECM can only read a maximum of 5 volts from the maf. A maf calibrated for 19# injectors will support about 835 kg/hr of air flow at 5 volts. Your engine making 320 rwhp will be injesting more than 835 kg/hr. So a maf calibrated for 19# injectors will not work for your combo.

2) Yes a sampling tube for 42# injectors will work for you

3) Megasquirt is a speed density based system. It does NOT use a maf. It uses a map sensor instead

4) The mafs I suggested do not have changeable tubes. The calibration is handled in the electronics. The maf sensor is the most important sensor. Having a good quality maf makes getting good drivability much easier. The C&L mafs are not considered to be very good. I would consider the PMAS and Pro-M mafs to be much better than the C&L.

5) Tuning your own vehicle with any system is going to be a huge learning curve no matter what system you use. Unless you or your buddy already have experience tuning, be prepared for that. It took me a good year of reading and learning before I really had a good grasp on tuning the factory ECM and I started with a good knowledge of how all the sensors worked.

One final recommendation, if you decide to have a professional tune, I would ask your tuner what maf he prefers. Some tuners prefer to only work with certain mafs.

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post #5 of 31 Old 01-01-2017, 03:38 PM
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Good explaination of mafs MAF / EFIDynoTuning

Tons of good reading on DIY tuning www.EFIDynoTuning.com - FREE Custom Tuning Software

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post #6 of 31 Old 01-01-2017, 06:59 PM
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^^ x2
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post #7 of 31 Old 01-01-2017, 07:29 PM Thread Starter
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Wow! Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of my questions. I do very much appreciate it. Your answers cleared a lot up for me on how this stuff works, and helped me make some decisions:

1.) I have decided I need a new MAF. My wife will get over it, lol. Now that I understand how the sample tubes work, I fully agree that what I have will not do the trick. With that being said, I also agree with you that going with a higher quality MAF is the way to go rather than messing with this C&L and a 42# sample tube. I have already contacted both PMAS and PRO-M via email, explained my setup, and asked for their advice on which MAF to go with. Hopefully I will hear back from them early this week. I will also take your advice, and call the tuning shop I will be going to, to see what they suggest. One thing is still confusing me though, you stated, "The mafs I suggested do not have changeable tubes. The calibration is handled in the electronics". I have noticed on several sites, including PMAS and PRO-M, they offer MAFs that are already plug and play for certain injector sizes. How are they doing that electronically without the tubes? Don't you need to work with the injector slope values in the ECU to attain this, or are they changing the electronic sensor itself? Also, I have not found anywhere that offers a plug and play setup for 47# injectors. It seems that once you go over 42# they don't make them. Since I will be running 47# injectors, what do I do in this case? Do they offer a housing with some kind of blank slate electronic sensor that can be tuned in the ECU for my injectors when I go to the dyno? I am assuming PMAS or PRO-M will answer this for me as well, but I figure you may get back to me before they do.

2.) The second thing I have decided, is to stay away from Megasquirt and self tuning for now. Don't get me wrong, I am very very interested in learning this stuff, and will certainly read up on it (thank you for the links by the way), but I had a feeling that a big learning curve was involved, and was skeptical when my buddy suggested it. He has been teaching himself now for about a year with HP on Chevys, and is doing pretty good I guess, but I know for a fact he has never tuned a supercharged car. My guess is that supercharged cars are even more complicated, and you probably want to make sure you know what you are doing when you start tuning one. Anyway, for now I will let the professionals tune it so I can enjoy my car this summer, and then spend the time reading about tuning this summer once I finally have time after graduating grad school this spring.

What do you think? Wise decisions?

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post #8 of 31 Old 01-02-2017, 03:09 PM
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Yes they use different sensor or electronics instead of changing the sampling tube.

There are 2 ways of dealing with larger injectors. You can use a maf calibrated to the injectors you are using. This fools the ECU into thinking there is less air entering the engine and the ECU commands less fuel but the injectors are larger so in theory you get the correct amount of fuel. The larger the injectors the more likely you are to have problems with this approach. The other way is to get a universal meter that flows and reads the amount of air the engine consumes. You enter the mafs transfer function into the ECU and the ECU knows the exact amount of air entering the engine. Until you program or tune the ECU for the universal maf the engine will probably not run well or at all.

They really don't make a maf calibrated for 47# injectors so you might as well get a universal meter and get a tune. You can use a meter calibrated for 42# or larger injectors and just input the actual maf transfer function into the ECU by tuning and it will function just like a universal meter.

I use a PMAS MH95-3000 and am very happy with it. Again I would ask your tuner for his recommendation. Also make sure you find a competent tuner.

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post #9 of 31 Old 01-02-2017, 05:40 PM
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not tuning

and using old tech like a 'calibrated' maf for inj size, no such thing,

will lead to timing issues, like headgasket, as LOAD will be wrong
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post #10 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 08:01 PM Thread Starter
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@ Paulie: Sorry for the late reply. It has been a busy couple of days. Paulie again, thank you for all the info. This makes perfect sense now. I am still waiting to hear back from PMAS and PRO-M, but we are just getting back from the holidays, so I expected a slow response time. I will also call the tuner tomorrow as well. In the meantime though, I have been browsing both of their websites, and I have to admit they both look good, but I do like the look and the price of the PMAS better. I will certainly check out the one you're running. One other thought crossed my mind today, and I am curious what you think about it. You said, Megasquirt was a speed density setup. It seems like it is fairly simple to make the necessary changes for speed density. I have also read that a speed density setup is better when running a blower because the ECU can actually see boost since the measurements are taken after the supercharger rather than in front of it, like the draw through MAFs we have been talking about. I know it would mean more money, but since I am interested in learning about tuning, would it be a wise move to get the Megasquirt now and move to the speed density setup? I would still take the car to the dyno and have the Megasquirt professionally tuned, but this would give me a base tune to work off of later when I am ready to start tuning, and also a tune I can revert back to if I mess something up. Thoughts?

@indy2000: Hey indy good to hear from you again. I would love to hear your thoughts on the above question as well. I would appreciate any advice I can get. I really want to do this right, and have a nice setup in the end that I can be proud of.

Thanks guys.

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post #11 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 08:19 PM
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unless this is a pure drag car

forget speed density

you want sequential, maf EFI.

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post #12 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting. I'm kind of new to this stuff. Can you explain your reasoning for the MAF. I have read arguments for both, but have read a lot of arguments for the speed density with a blower. As far as the car is concerned, it is not a daily driver for me. This is purely a for fun car. As as I own two Foxbody's, one of which is stock (my cruiser), the car we are talking about does not necessarily have to be able to cruise. I am not overly concerned with this car about gas mileage or anything, and I will not be taking it on any long trips (although I would still like it to be somewhat streetable). I will admit, although I have never done it, I do dream of taking it to the track one day.

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post #13 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 08:40 PM
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You haven't really described the goal of the car, 'fun' not so fun, 'no long trips' 'no cruising' , 'maybe track time'

very confusing.

there are tons of write-ups, that argue one way or the other.

suffice to say, once you read them, and decide what's best for your needs

90% of the time maf is the choice,,,,,,,, Maf is the way to measure air precisely.

you only need to see what OEM trends are, regardless of the emission argument.

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post #14 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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Fair enough. I apologize I have not described the goal of the car very well. I only drive it in the summer around town, and occasionally to work about a 20 min drive away. Its stored in the winter, and only sees about 3000 miles a year. It also sees an occasional street race when some high school kid thinks his car with a stupid wing and a fart can has something over the Mustang. I do hope to take it to the track eventually, again just for fun, not for any sort of competitions or anything. I just would like to know what she can do, and we have an awesome track here in Brainerd, Minnesota. My goal is to reach 400WHP. My hope is this blower install will put me around the 320ish range. Please correct me if you think this number is way off. I have never had it dynoed, so I am really just guessing. All in all though, I do understand your point about the MAF measuring air more precisely. I have read this as well, but again, I have also read that once you add the supercharger an SD tune is the better choice. Either way though, I will take your advice under consideration when I make my final call. Thanks for the input.

@Paulie: Your Thoughts?

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post #15 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 11:22 PM
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I don't see the logic,

if the maf is more precise

adding a supercharger, having less precise measuring of air is, better?

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post #16 of 31 Old 01-03-2017, 11:45 PM Thread Starter
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Hey, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just repeating what I read. I'll try to relay what I read as best I can, but forgive me if I mess this up. I'm learning here. The theory I guess is that if you max out the MAFs ability to read the incoming air, and they said this actually occurs in the ECU, not the MAF itself, the ECU essentially becomes blind. It cannot see the boost entering the motor. In high performance applications (not saying mine is one of these) where this can occur, it is safer to use speed density because the ECU can still see the boost coming into the engine during these conditions, and continue to adjust the AFR.

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At the moment I'm indifferent and undecided. I'm seriously considering the Megasquirt again only because I like the idea of having a professional tune on it so later when I learn more about tuning, I can use it as a comparison and backup if I mess up. After reading more about the Megasquirt, it seems it can do either MAF or SD. I figure with how easy it is to switch to SD I might try it. If I don't like it, I can always buy a MAF and switch right back. Hey, then I might actually have enough experience comparing the two, I can hop back on this forum and have a real opinion. In any case I see real solid arguments for both. I'm getting the idea they each have there pros and cons, and it really depends on the specific application.

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post #18 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by drw4338 View Post
Hey, I'm not arguing with you, I'm just repeating what I read. I'll try to relay what I read as best I can, but forgive me if I mess this up. I'm learning here. The theory I guess is that if you max out the MAFs ability to read the incoming air, and they said this actually occurs in the ECU, not the MAF itself, the ECU essentially becomes blind. It cannot see the boost entering the motor. In high performance applications (not saying mine is one of these) where this can occur, it is safer to use speed density because the ECU can still see the boost coming into the engine during these conditions, and continue to adjust the AFR.
I'm not arguing with you either, giving you my opinion, and just question your question, that did not sound logical.

The maf is more precise at measuring air, than a calculated air mass from baro, and temp.

It is in NA, and forced induction

The ecu does not see boost, and it does not adjust afr, you can run open loop if you want,,,,,,,, it uses air mass to calculate load and deliver correct fuel mass.

There was an issue, in the beginning with the maf, being scaled in the stock strategy, that has long since been corrected, by some smart people, is a non issue now

If you select a maf, that reaches and exceeds 5volts, you picked the wrong maf.

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Originally Posted by drw4338 View Post
At the moment I'm indifferent and undecided. I'm seriously considering the Megasquirt again only because I like the idea of having a professional tune on it so later when I learn more about tuning, I can use it as a comparison and backup if I mess up. After reading more about the Megasquirt, it seems it can do either MAF or SD. I figure with how easy it is to switch to SD I might try it. If I don't like it, I can always buy a MAF and switch right back. Hey, then I might actually have enough experience comparing the two, I can hop back on this forum and have a real opinion. In any case I see real solid arguments for both. I'm getting the idea they each have there pros and cons, and it really depends on the specific application.
Selecting an engine management system, is a personal choice.

All of them, require a certain amount of understanding of inputs/outputs, math and logic.

some find it a steep learning curve, others not.

one thing, tuning for WOT power is easy,,,,,,the rest takes a lot of time,,,,,,transient fueling will be the most difficult to get.

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post #20 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not arguing with you either, giving you my opinion, and just question your question, that did not sound logical.

The maf is more precise at measuring air, than a calculated air mass from baro, and temp.

It is in NA, and forced induction

The ecu does not see boost, and it does not adjust afr, you can run open loop if you want,,,,,,,, it uses air mass to calculate load and deliver correct fuel mass.

There was an issue, in the beginning with the maf, being scaled in the stock strategy, that has long since been corrected, by some smart people, is a non issue now

If you select a maf, that reaches and exceeds 5volts, you picked the wrong maf.

Very well put, and I fully agree with this.

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post #21 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Selecting an engine management system, is a personal choice.

All of them, require a certain amount of understanding of inputs/outputs, math and logic.

some find it a steep learning curve, others not.

one thing, tuning for WOT power is easy,,,,,,the rest takes a lot of time,,,,,,transient fueling will be the most difficult to get.

Also good input. So two questions to throw your way I guess:

1.) What do you think of the Megasquirt ECU? Any experience with it, or know someone who has?

2.) If you were in my shoes and wanting to learn tuning, would you suggest I put the Megasquirt in now and get that professional tune on it like I discussed, which will provide me a comparison and backup down the road, or would you stick with the stock ECU for now, and have them chip it?

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Nevermind, I went back a looked at their web page, and I misread the description. Megasquirt appears to only be speed density. I guess my questions are irrelevant. Sorry Indy.

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post #23 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 04:12 PM
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I'll throw a stick in the spokes, Anderson PMS? Easy to use, just need a good Wideband. Can handle everything you need, get a maf sensor for it also. Just my 2cents.....
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post #24 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by drw4338 View Post
Also good input. So two questions to throw your way I guess:

1.) What do you think of the Megasquirt ECU? Any experience with it, or know someone who has?

2.) If you were in my shoes and wanting to learn tuning, would you suggest I put the Megasquirt in now and get that professional tune on it like I discussed, which will provide me a comparison and backup down the road, or would you stick with the stock ECU for now, and have them chip it?
the MS, looks good as far as I can tell, it was really a DIY thing but has grown to more of what most expect in a tuning device...

I sometimes work with one original founders of MS, back in the import tuner days

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post #25 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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the MS, looks good as far as I can tell, it was really a DIY thing but has grown to more of what most expect in a tuning device...

I sometimes work with one original founders of MS, back in the import tuner days
I really thought it looked good also when I found it online. But ofcourse as mentioned before it forces you to switch to SD.

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post #26 of 31 Old 01-04-2017, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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@JFraser27: Hey, thanks for joining the conversation, and the input. I did actually check out the Anderson PMS. I saw it was being sold by LMR. I have always had good luck with the products I have ordered from them. I personally know almost nothing about any of the tuners, but the reason I was interested in the Megasquirt over the PMS, was that MS is a complete replacement ECU that directly connects to the factory harness, and is sized to fit in the stock location. I thought it would be less hassle than a piggy back system. Also, if I'm understanding how the piggy back works, it is intercepting sensor signals prior to the ECU and then tricking the ECU to get it to do what you want. I'm really trying to avoid all of that faking the system stuff. I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it just feels better to me to have a fully standalone ECU.

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post #27 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 12:38 PM
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I agree with Indy, selecting an engine management system is a personal choice. They all have pluses and minuses. I have not used Megasquirt. When I looked into tuning my car I was not really impressed with Megasquirt and decided to tune the factory ECU with a Moates Quarterhorse.
Again it's your decision. I'll just say the factory ECU with a quality MAF and a good tune will have no problem running your car even with the blower and will have plenty of room to grow. There really is no limit to what the factory ECU can support with proper tuning, however if I went past about 600rwhp I'd start looking into a Holley or Fast system.

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post #28 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 07:28 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Paulie. I agree with you and Indy as well. I have talked with PRO-M, PMAS, and the guy who will be doing the tune. After hearing from my tuner that the Megasquirt is batch fire, I am sticking with the stock ECU. He thinks that is best for my current mods as well. Indy mentioned that it would be better to have sequential also. I have also decided on a MAF. PMAS recommended the MH80-1800. I really like it and the price. Thank you both so much for all the advice. You guys are great, and have really helped me on this one. I especially appreciate all the education. I feel confident now that I will have a good setup.

1993 LX 5.0 Convertible
1990 GT Convertible
2014 GT
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post #29 of 31 Old 01-10-2017, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drw4338 View Post
...Megasquirt appears to only be speed density...
Not true. You can use SD or MAF or both at the same time (my current tune).
MS3 is fully sequential.
There are many different models, takes some time to sort it out.
As for the C&L, it works for me as a blow-thru, so the sample tube does not match the injector. C&L exchanged the proper tube for my configuration. He sold the company to MAC a couple years ago, so no more technical advice from the guy who invented it about 25 years ago. Yesterday, I found the flow curves for all the sample tubes on the Tweecer Yahoo Group. These are real as measured on a flow bench at C&L.

Megasquirt uses Tuner Studio as the user interface. You can install it without the MS & see how you like it. It's what sold me.
http://tunerstudio.com/

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #30 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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I apologize, and should clarify my quote above. The specific Megasquirt I was interested in (MSpnp2) is apparently only SD and batch fire.

1993 LX 5.0 Convertible
1990 GT Convertible
2014 GT
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post #31 of 31 Old 01-13-2017, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
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I apologize, and should clarify my quote above. The specific Megasquirt I was interested in (MSpnp2) is apparently only SD and batch fire.
Apparently only to you.
Uses internal MAP sensor can be used on both cars with factory MAF or speed density.
https://www.diyautotune.com/product/...d-mustang-5-0/

MSPNP2 uses the Microsquirt Module which is the same as the DIYPNP-F60 uses.

Both are batch fire (bank to bank fuel control) vs fully sequential. Doesn't make all that much difference, since engine is port injected not direct injection.

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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