Wideband Reading During Crank/Start? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 08-11-2016, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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Wideband Reading During Crank/Start?

I need to get the AFR during the brief window that it runs before dying. I've wired it hot at all times, but it still goes to cycle the heater when it cranks. Can I get it to read in that timeframe by manually cycling the heater?

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post #2 of 11 Old 08-12-2016, 08:11 AM
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What wideband is it?

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post #3 of 11 Old 08-12-2016, 08:36 AM Thread Starter
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It is an Innovate MTX-L.
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post #4 of 11 Old 08-12-2016, 08:50 AM
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Cars normally have two accessory device power lines providing continuous power in run or in run and accessory, but drop off during "start". These lines intentionally interrupt heater, wiper, radio, and other things during start.

Be sure you are on the true engine 12V power line that is normally common to fuel pump and ignition when on run and start.

As for the wideband....my Innovate reset below a certain battery voltage. When my battery would go below 9-10V it would reset. I never measured the exact voltage, but I had it on the engine run line (that had power start and run) and it would occasionally reset in cranking.

Try pulling the starter wire off the starter and seeing if the Innovate resets on start without the battery being loaded. Maybe you have it wired wrong. Otherwise, you might have to power it from a temporary battery.


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post #5 of 11 Old 08-12-2016, 08:53 AM
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By the way, you will not get a useful cranking or initial start mixture reading anyway. If that is what you are trying to do, it won't work even if the wideband runs. That's because the pipes will be full of cold gas. It won't be useful for mixture until the hot exhaust totally fills the pipes.


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post #6 of 11 Old 08-12-2016, 10:04 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomR View Post
Cars normally have two accessory device power lines providing continuous power in run or in run and accessory, but drop off during "start". These lines intentionally interrupt heater, wiper, radio, and other things during start.

Be sure you are on the true engine 12V power line that is normally common to fuel pump and ignition when on run and start.

As for the wideband....my Innovate reset below a certain battery voltage. When my battery would go below 9-10V it would reset. I never measured the exact voltage, but I had it on the engine run line (that had power start and run) and it would occasionally reset in cranking.

Try pulling the starter wire off the starter and seeing if the Innovate resets on start without the battery being loaded. Maybe you have it wired wrong. Otherwise, you might have to power it from a temporary battery.
It stays powered just fine. I've got it jumpered to the hot at all times box under the hood. I'm assuming as soon as the relatively cool air starts moving across the sensor it requires it to re-heat to get a reading, and by that time the engine has died.

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Originally Posted by TomR View Post
By the way, you will not get a useful cranking or initial start mixture reading anyway. If that is what you are trying to do, it won't work even if the wideband runs. That's because the pipes will be full of cold gas. It won't be useful for mixture until the hot exhaust totally fills the pipes.
That's exactly what I'm trying to get. For some reason my transfer function is way out of the box (believe it to be overestimating, making it way rich based on smell/plugs), so I'm trying to get an idea of how far off it is so my tuner can scale it to the point it at least runs, to get more data.

If you've got an idea on how to get it, I'm all ears.
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post #7 of 11 Old 08-13-2016, 09:06 AM
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What MAF, and tuning software are you using? It's also not good on the sensors to be warmed up via o2 heater, then cold engine cranked on. The cold air blast on the hot sensor can cause damage prematurely.
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post #8 of 11 Old 08-13-2016, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WickedSnake00 View Post
For some reason my transfer function is way out of the box (believe it to be overestimating, making it way rich based on smell/plugs), so I'm trying to get an idea of how far off it is so my tuner can scale it to the point it at least runs, to get more data.

If you've got an idea on how to get it, I'm all ears.
You won't be able to do what you are trying to do with an oxygen sensor. They require around 600-800C temperature. Cold air will not hurt the sensor at all. Moisture hurts sensors by depositing salts and other airborne contaminants on the sensor element as the moisture evaporates or boils off the surface, and metallic contaminants also hurt the sensor element.

Cold dry air does not matter, except the senor will not read cold air correctly.

Even if the heater maintains that heat, the sampled air has to be entirely from the combustion process. If the engine misfires at all or the pipes have not almost filled with burned exhaust gas, any reading is completely useless.

The only way I can think of to calculate cranking is to look at injector duty when cranking and calculate the approximate duty for a ball park mixture mixture at that cranking air volume passing through the engine. That's already been done in OEM fuel tables.

Once that is done, you have to adjust the baseline in actual cranking tests until it starts reliably. There might be a way to measure the cranking fuel and air ratio directly, but I'm not aware of it. Whatever the method might be, you are talking laboratory setups. A traditional wideband will never work. A traditional wideband will NOT tell you air/fuel ratio in any significant misfire situation. (This is why people **wrongly** think a fuel cut RPM limiter causes an engine to go lean. The sensor can say 20:1 and the actual mixture in active cylinders might be 10:1.)


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post #9 of 11 Old 08-13-2016, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Even if the heater maintains that heat, the sampled air has to be entirely from the combustion process. If the engine misfires at all or the pipes have not almost filled with burned exhaust gas, any reading is completely useless.
I'm aware of that, but I'm pretty much grasping at straws here. It does run long enough without misfire I hope it would work. Figured I'd give this a shot (and the tuner insists it should work) but failing this I pretty much have to send the intake and MAF out to get calibrated, or completely throw in the towel and get a better supported MAF like an HPX, which is looking increasingly likely by the day.

Quote:
The only way I can think of to calculate cranking is to look at injector duty when cranking and calculate the approximate duty for a ball park mixture mixture at that cranking air volume passing through the engine. That's already been done in OEM fuel tables.

Once that is done, you have to adjust the baseline in actual cranking tests until it starts reliably. There might be a way to measure the cranking fuel and air ratio directly, but I'm not aware of it. Whatever the method might be, you are talking laboratory setups. A traditional wideband will never work. A traditional wideband will NOT tell you air/fuel ratio in any significant misfire situation. (This is why people **wrongly** think a fuel cut RPM limiter causes an engine to go lean. The sensor can say 20:1 and the actual mixture in active cylinders might be 10:1.)
That's where the rub is. It doesn't run long enough to get the wideband to read, and sure doesn't run long enough to get a datalog, so I can't get the fuel calculations either. The only other way I could think would be to run it with the MAF unplugged where it's stable, with a known AFR, but then have to create a jumper for the MAF to record as a secondary analog input.
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post #10 of 11 Old 08-13-2016, 02:32 PM
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Maybe you need to go to a forum where people deal with your computer. I think you have something other than a MAF calibration issue.



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post #11 of 11 Old 08-14-2016, 10:08 AM
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"Do not pre-warm the sensor before starting the engine, simply start the
engine as normal. Allowing the sensor to pre-warm before starting the
engine will increase the possibility of damaging the sensor from shock-
cooling." Right off innovate Motorsports instruction manual, I suppose other makes and models could very.
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