I'm done with the A9L chips and Quarterhorse..time for aftermarket ECU..Input ? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 04:34 AM Thread Starter
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I'm done with the A9L chips and Quarterhorse..time for aftermarket ECU..Input ?

After dealing with nasty cold & hot starts, bucking for years, tuners, dyno runs and buying this Quarterhorse along with BE and EA..I'm gonna dump it all and finally go with a standalone aftermarket ECU. These 25 year old EEC's that came in the Foxes are just too dated for mods.

I've been looking at the P.I.M.P, Megasqurit and on the deep end of the scale is the Pro-M setup. Any input ? I know the Pro-M setup is quite a bit more money then the others.

The car is your basic street Fox...306, H/C/I, all the normal goodies. I just wanna be able to drive enjoy the car without being at the mercy of a tuner and wasting months of my time researching the secrets of tuning the A9L with the Quarterhorse.

TIA guys !


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post #2 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 08:34 AM
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Are you still going to be using a tuner or will you be doing it all yourself now?

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post #3 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 08:54 AM
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To me, it looks as though you have already answered your own question.

Using the PIMP/megasquirt requires that you either spend a lot of time learning how to tune, and/or that you rely heavily on a tuner. You made it pretty clear that you do not want to do either of those.

The Pro-M system will allow you to easily do this on your own.
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post #4 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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From what I was researching, it seems as though the Megasquirt/PIMP are must more tuning friendly then our old EEC's? I know more useless info about GUFB scalers/functions and FN this and FN that. There's up to date info on tuning with these Aftermarket EECs, where the old OEM code was never officialy release to the public and there's still quite a few unknown code in it.

There's thousands of $ wasted on trying to tune my old Fox ECU, what's another $2k on the Pro M?.. Lol
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post #5 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 11:04 AM
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You can get an MSPNP installed in one of these cars in less than half an hour, and it should fire up on the base tune with your mods. See this link for an illustrated install guide.

MegaSquirtPNP by DIYAutoTune.com

Tuning it will be as simple as entering spark advance numbers in the spark table and moving the VE table numbers up or down. Get the registered version of TunerStudio and a wideband, and you can even have the laptop figure out what those VE table numbers should be for you. While a dyno is going to give you best results for tuning the spark table, you can adjust the spark table at a dragstrip test and tune night by playing back the data logs and seeing what timing numbers give you the fastest acceleration, which is labeled RPMDot in the data logs.

You can also download the tuning software here and check out an example project to get a better feel for the software.

EFI Analytics Software Downloads | tunerstudio.com

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post #6 of 46 Old 03-14-2016, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
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Matt thanks for the post! I was checking that out on YouTube, there's a bunch of vids on tuning with it. Seems much more tunable and user friendly.

My main concern is the driveability and manners of the car. I want to simply start in the morning and drive. After running to the store, come out and restart the car without a long cranking time and it barely catching and then it trying to find an idle... You know the simple things.. Lol

Also I've already had a wideband installed for a couple years now at the "request" of the first tuner as well
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post #7 of 46 Old 03-15-2016, 10:44 AM
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The drivability will only be as good as the quality of the tune, regardless of what standalone you have. If you've just got bolt ons and the stock injectors, the base tune's startup settings are likely to be fine out of the box, and if you can't get the drivability you describe, email me at [email protected] to get things dialed in.

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post #8 of 46 Old 03-17-2016, 09:26 PM
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I have the same setup as you. 306, H/I/C, 24lb injectors. It idled like crap with C&L meter and 24lbs on stock A9L. Mind you i never drove it other then a drive around the block when i bought the car in January so i cant really tell how it did daily driving, but the hunting idle, had to rev it to stop from stalling out in slow speed manuvers etc

Installed EFIsource Microsquirt, came loaded with stock tune, all i had to do was connect 3 wires from stock BAP sensor into the provided MAP sensor, the stock 302 tune was already loaded and in 32f weather it fired up my mustang with no issues once i altered injector size in the tune. The Microsquirt IMO is better if you're going to use a basic setting without getting crazy with lots of inputs and outputs. I also use the MS to control my electric cooling fan, but thats about it. Its really hard to beat for $475. If you find that you just dont like MS and all this tuning, at least you're not out as much money.

A day of driving around monitoring afr's and tuning the fuel map, it idles and drives much better than the stock A9L.
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post #9 of 46 Old 03-19-2016, 11:18 AM
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thinking that changing hardware is going to solve your tuning problems

will result in just emptying your wallet faster.......

there isn't anything in the QH that is not allowing to tune for drive ability.

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post #10 of 46 Old 03-19-2016, 10:05 PM
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I'll buy your Quarter Horse.


Is buying a used Quarter horse a bad idea?


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post #11 of 46 Old 03-19-2016, 11:57 PM
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yes indeed it is,,,,that is why you should buy it.

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post #12 of 46 Old 04-01-2016, 09:00 PM
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Tuner

If you have a QH and wideband already; use it. Contact Willie at Dirty Dirty Racing and get tuned for $150.00. Your tune should be a piece of cake for him if all your sensors and such are in good working order. I have a finicky SN95 with a 347 and Willie tuned it to run like a new car. My AODE also had to be tuned.

CHP/CPR (Coast High Performance) / (Custom Performance Racing Engines)347 lasted a whopping 500 miles due to poor machining, metal debris in main bearings, damaged cam bearing and a balance job that was off 64ozs!
Buyer Beware.
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post #13 of 46 Old 04-07-2016, 08:33 PM
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MS or Pimp hands down over the QH. Tried both only have one left..... the MS.

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post #14 of 46 Old 04-07-2016, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris94GT View Post
MS or Pimp hands down over the QH. Tried both only have one left..... the MS.
Can either one tune an auto? Also; do they datalog?

CHP/CPR (Coast High Performance) / (Custom Performance Racing Engines)347 lasted a whopping 500 miles due to poor machining, metal debris in main bearings, damaged cam bearing and a balance job that was off 64ozs!
Buyer Beware.
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post #15 of 46 Old 04-07-2016, 09:35 PM
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I can understand the frustration, but having looked at the MS2 and MS3 source code, I'm sorry... it's a joke. There's no way you'd ever get better driveability with a MS system, or any aftermarket system for that matter. Failure to properly tune the EEC-IV is a lack of knowledge/expertise on the tuner's part. I do sympathize with the OP, however... there is a steep and long learning curve to becoming a good tuner with the EEC-IV.

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post #16 of 46 Old 04-07-2016, 10:02 PM
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If you put a Holley system in, like the HP, it will auto tune and run like a champ. I have not had one bit of trouble (other than an initial ground loop issue because I grounded to the battery negative) with the Holley.

It has a few quirks, like most systems, but nothing major. Like they call the PSIG they actually use "PSIA", which misled me. I programmed PSIA and nothing worked right, then I learned it was really PSIG and was not PSIA. The fuel cut off limiter sucks. But other than that, it is great.

I would never ever go back to an A9L, and wish I would have bought the Holley years ago. I could have saved thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of time.


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post #17 of 46 Old 04-08-2016, 08:57 AM
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Can either one tune an auto? Also; do they datalog?
You can tune a car that has an auto with them, but the AOD version on Fox bodies is mechanical; the ECU can't adjust it. There is an option to use a MicroSquirt as a transmission controller for later electronically shifted transmissions.

MS3s can log to an internal SD card or external laptop, all other versions log to external devices only

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post #18 of 46 Old 04-08-2016, 11:49 AM
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I didn't have any luck using an aftermarket transmission controller on my custom built 4R70W behind the 408 in my '71 Mustang, so I ended up converting to EFI using EEC-V. I paid $25 for the strategy definition for CDAN4 along with $200 in junkyard parts, including the harness and coil packs. Couldn't be happier with the transmission control. Ford has a lot of levers for tuning their electronic transmissions and the aftermarket stuff I've seen doesn't even scratch the surface, which is what you need for great driveability.
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post #19 of 46 Old 04-08-2016, 01:36 PM
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I didn't have any luck using an aftermarket transmission controller on my custom built 4R70W behind the 408 in my '71 Mustang, so I ended up converting to EFI using EEC-V. I paid $25 for the strategy definition for CDAN4 along with $200 in junkyard parts, including the harness and coil packs. Couldn't be happier with the transmission control. Ford has a lot of levers for tuning their electronic transmissions and the aftermarket stuff I've seen doesn't even scratch the surface, which is what you need for great driveability.
I have to agree. The transmission tuning is by far the most complicated aspect of my tune. Binary Editor has in the neighborhood of 300 different parameters to adjust the AODE/4R70W.

CHP/CPR (Coast High Performance) / (Custom Performance Racing Engines)347 lasted a whopping 500 miles due to poor machining, metal debris in main bearings, damaged cam bearing and a balance job that was off 64ozs!
Buyer Beware.
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post #20 of 46 Old 04-08-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
You can tune a car that has an auto with them, but the AOD version on Fox bodies is mechanical; the ECU can't adjust it. There is an option to use a MicroSquirt as a transmission controller for later electronically shifted transmissions.

MS3s can log to an internal SD card or external laptop, all other versions log to external devices only
Very nice. These units sound like a nice option for a Fox car. That being said; the A9L computer is a very capable platform. It all comes down to personal preference and how willing one is to learn.

CHP/CPR (Coast High Performance) / (Custom Performance Racing Engines)347 lasted a whopping 500 miles due to poor machining, metal debris in main bearings, damaged cam bearing and a balance job that was off 64ozs!
Buyer Beware.
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post #21 of 46 Old 05-03-2016, 10:08 PM
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I bought the PRO M system. I wish I would have gone a different way. I spent the extra money so I wouldn't have to pay to get it tuned by pro. Well a long story short. I'm taking the car in May 16th to get it tuned anyway.
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post #22 of 46 Old 05-03-2016, 11:15 PM
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What are you admitting?

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post #23 of 46 Old 05-04-2016, 09:14 AM
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I can understand the frustration, but having looked at the MS2 and MS3 source code, I'm sorry... it's a joke. There's no way you'd ever get better driveability with a MS system, or any aftermarket system for that matter. Failure to properly tune the EEC-IV is a lack of knowledge/expertise on the tuner's part. I do sympathize with the OP, however... there is a steep and long learning curve to becoming a good tuner with the EEC-IV.
That sums it up IMO. Tuning became my new hobby rather than driving the car for over six months. Without participating in forums online it would have been much longer. Took me only a few days to get it running decent. Several months before I was truly satisfied with driveability on my combo. I enjoyed the learning process and the result in how my car drives is outstanding. Ford PCM, QH, Binary Editor or Tuner Pro give you nearly unlimited capability to make fine tune corrections. I completely understand it is not for everybody. Anyone who just wants their heavily modded car to run right and doesn't particularly care why should hire a tuner. It will be far less frustrating in most cases, and possibly less expensive in the end.

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post #24 of 46 Old 05-04-2016, 12:30 PM
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That sums it up IMO. Tuning became my new hobby rather than driving the car for over six months. Without participating in forums online it would have been much longer. Took me only a few days to get it running decent. Several months before I was truly satisfied with driveability on my combo. I enjoyed the learning process and the result in how my car drives is outstanding. Ford PCM, QH, Binary Editor or Tuner Pro give you nearly unlimited capability to make fine tune corrections. I completely understand it is not for everybody. Anyone who just wants their heavily modded car to run right and doesn't particularly care why should hire a tuner. It will be far less frustrating in most cases, and possibly less expensive in the end.
Assuming you find a competent tuner who actually takes the time to dial in the drivability.

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post #25 of 46 Old 05-04-2016, 09:55 PM
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Assuming you find a competent tuner who actually takes the time to dial in the drivability.
I'm in awe of any tuner if they can truly dial in the countless parameters of driveability during a couple hour tuning session.

94GT-T5 Fordstrokers DIY 347, TW190 FAC-Ported Victor EFI-FTI Cam-90mm LMAF-85MM TB-42s-LTs-4.10s QH tuned. 12.10 @119.50 NA.

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post #26 of 46 Old 05-04-2016, 10:09 PM
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I'm in awe of any tuner if they can truly dial in the countless parameters of driveability during a couple hour tuning session.
Agreed. Tuning takes time. More time than one is willing to pay at the dyno.

CHP/CPR (Coast High Performance) / (Custom Performance Racing Engines)347 lasted a whopping 500 miles due to poor machining, metal debris in main bearings, damaged cam bearing and a balance job that was off 64ozs!
Buyer Beware.
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post #27 of 46 Old 05-07-2016, 04:18 PM
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I bought the PRO M system. I wish I would have gone a different way. I spent the extra money so I wouldn't have to pay to get it tuned by pro. Well a long story short. I'm taking the car in May 16th to get it tuned anyway.
What is the matter with your Pro M system? What is your combination? I thought the self correcting nature of the computer made it a real plug and play setup?
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post #28 of 46 Old 09-05-2019, 07:10 PM
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This is an old post but you saved me some money. thanks. A few years later has your opinion changed any??

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post #29 of 46 Old 09-05-2019, 07:12 PM
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How has your experience with Holley HP been so far? I'm researching a replacement for my A9L.

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post #30 of 46 Old 09-05-2019, 10:12 PM
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are you looking for plug and play, self learning system?

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post #31 of 46 Old 09-06-2019, 07:02 AM
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Yes, I'm between Holley Hp, or the MSPNP2 that LMR offers. I'M not expecting magic plug and play from either. But is the holley worth the extra expense?

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post #32 of 46 Old 09-06-2019, 07:13 AM
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I'm running an 89 stock block, si trim making 10# boost, edelbrock rpm heads, gt40 tubular intake, 30# injectors. Either system would allow me to eliminate the fmu and msd boost retard because it's all in the tune correct? I have a 340 in the tank and no trex pump installed.

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post #33 of 46 Old 09-06-2019, 10:21 AM
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none of that would warrant going to a different engine management system

what features do you need that you cant'd find with a9l?
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post #34 of 46 Old 09-06-2019, 11:42 AM
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I had no trouble tuning the 306 with the Kenne Bell on it and a mild cam using the TwEECer. The engine size being the same as stock & under normal driving conditions, there wasn't much to it other than getting a decent MAF and it's associated transfer function. A few other tweaks for a larger TB and it ran excellent.

When I switched to the 427 & street-unfriendly cam, I thought I could just change the displacement and a couple other parameters and it would be OK. The off-idle & light-load tuning with this stupid cam was annoying and I ended up half-assing it by reducing timing to minimize bucking. It ran acceptably after these tweaks, but I had been slowly buying used a used HP and associated cabling. I made the main power cable and lucked into a half-price dual-sync distributor (eliminates ground issue and it is short so I can fit a Hi-Ram or my old GT500 supercharger over it if needed.) I was still ready to sell the HP if it didn't provide easier/better tunability with this grouchy cam. A few tweaks to IAC and fueling and I was able to get good tip-in response and reasonable below 2k RPM operation (oh, and 10 degrees more light-load timing which allows for a cooler engine.) The key is targeting a richer mixture under the light-load conditions to compensate for the exhaust gas dilution caused by overlap at lighter loads. Not easy to do with the A9L which targets 14.7:1 (you can offset the switching of the O2 sensors or run open loop I suppose, but it's tricky.) Holley HP is easy because it uses wideband feedback, thus you can command any ratio you want from idle to peak RPM. I've decided to keep the HP, it also has additional capabilities that allowed me to remove a ton of patch wiring needed to log certain parameters. Removing the 32 year old harness for a new clean looking setup was nice also.
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post #35 of 46 Old 09-06-2019, 01:03 PM
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I've had or tuned Tweecer, PMS, QH, FAST, MS, and Holley EFI. Holley easily gets my vote. Not saying that the other systems won't do everything you need but when I weigh the things that are important to me, Holley wins. No experience with the Pro-M system.

I just bought another car that had been tuned with QH. Ran fine and made good power. No real driveability or starting issues. Drove it for 5 minutes after I got it home and then began the process of installing a Holley EFI system. I like their system that much but also know that I like to fix things that ain't broke.
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