Pro-M, Holley, or PIMP pros and cons? - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 36 Old 07-10-2015, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Pro-M, Holley, or PIMP pros and cons?

I am wtb a new EMS for my supercharged 94. What are the pros and cons everyone is finding with their systems?

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post #2 of 36 Old 07-11-2015, 07:44 AM
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I'm in the process of installing a Pro-M right now, so far everything has gone smooth, customer service has been great, which is very important and means a lot when you are spending that type of money. Replacing the harness seemed a little overwhelming at first but it actually was very easy, I just installed mine yesterday and I had the harness installed in under 2 hours, I didn't break anything or get pissed off or frustrated once. I went with the coil on plug setup, I was concerned initially with how I'd get the coils mounted. I ended up buying some brackets on ebay and welded them on to my valve covers. I was able to order a set of custom wires from Firecore 50 with different length and boots for each wire, their customer service was top notch, ask for Bob if you ever deal with those guys.

There has been only one problem so far and it's not really a huge deal but worth mentioning so you don't have the same issue and that's your distributor, I have an aftermarket distributor and they have issues with the shutter wheels and hall effect sensors. You'll need to measure the teeth with a dial caliper to confirm they are within a certain range, not a big deal but I wasn't made aware of this until my order shipped out. Had I been made aware of this at the time of purchase I would have dealt with the problem sooner. It's just going to delay the final outcome but not a big deal and I'm glad I can let the next guy know to be aware of the issue.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions and hopefully I can help you out.

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post #3 of 36 Old 07-11-2015, 08:16 AM
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If you want a complete ready to run efi system, get the pro m.

There isn't anything wrong with the others but the pro m comes with the harness for YOUR car. Building s harness is a lot of work

I put my pro m on layaway when I started tearing into my shortblock. Now that the motor is almost done it is almost paid off. I put the correct injectors and maf on layaway with it.




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post #4 of 36 Old 07-11-2015, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. I also want to go with the coil on plug setup. I already have 90lb injectors but I currently only run a map sensor no MAF. I had been running a AEM EMS.
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post #5 of 36 Old 07-11-2015, 01:37 PM
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in my opinion if you are good with cumputers and navigating the software and can build your own harness/wiring, i would go with the holley dominator. i am not computer smart, that said the pro-m was right fit for me. no need to get deep into the software but can if you want. and is fairly easy to navigate.
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post #6 of 36 Old 07-11-2015, 05:36 PM Thread Starter
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I think I can do the Holly. Wiring doesn't bother me and I'm pretty good at it lol. I know a couple people that are running the holly I could go check out theirs. I am just wondering if any of the systems have a true advantage or the other.
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post #7 of 36 Old 07-12-2015, 01:18 PM
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PiMP is megasquirt. I don't know about Stinger's value-add to Megasquirt but typically the pro of megasquirt is the low cost, the con is your own brain, patience, and research is the best support you're going to get. That said, their support might be top notch but I don't know.

Stinger also offers a couple plug and play harness options, either a traditional harness or a modular one which the other guys actually don't offer, and modular is a better approach IMO if your sensors might be in different locations for various reasons. Bascially everything that needs a connection has its own mini-harness so you can run that particular length the way that makes the most sense. Also excellent for the "hide the wiring" guys.

With stinger you're looking at something under 1300 with the harness. Pro-M is right around 2000 and their reputation for support is very good (Note: A guy in another thread quoted 2700 bucks but I don't know what made his more expensive than what I see on their website).

Go with a megasquirt kit and you're around in for around $600 but you're also basically 100% BYOBrain for support.

So be honest about your own abilities and get the one that fits you best. They are all very capable systems.

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post #8 of 36 Old 07-12-2015, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry458 View Post
I am just wondering if any of the systems have a true advantage or the other.
To this question, I would think about what your needs are exactly and then see what can meet your needs.

Trying to compare and contrast like that won't get you very far, but if you say "I need staged injection" it can be pretty easy to figure out if this or that can do it or not.

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post #9 of 36 Old 07-12-2015, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info. The pro m is sounding real good I just need to find out a few more things about it then I'll be ready to make a decision.
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post #10 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 09:53 AM
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The Pro-M kit cost $2700 which included my wide bands and the coil on plug option which include the 8 coils and distributor cap cover and the associated changes to the harness

$399 for the coil on plug option, I think the wide bands were $300, I also paid $100 to have them input the tune.

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post #11 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 10:27 AM
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Got a pic of the distributor cap cover?

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post #12 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 10:40 AM
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post #13 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 11:00 AM
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Ahh, that's pretty neat. Best one I've seen. I haven't decided yet if I'll get/make a cover or swap for a later model cam sensor.

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post #14 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 06:14 PM
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what are your 90 lb injectors, high or low impedance? pro-m doesn"t support low impedance injectors. you would have to switch to id1000"s or similar high impedance injectors.
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post #15 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Ahh, that's pretty neat. Best one I've seen. I haven't decided yet if I'll get/make a cover or swap for a later model cam sensor.
What would be the benefit of a later model cam sensor vs what pro-m supplies?
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post #16 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 08:00 PM
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What would be the benefit of a later model cam sensor vs what pro-m supplies?
Well I run megasquirt so whatever pro-m supplies isn't really an option for me.

The Pro-m setup that turboLXstang is running uses the factory TFI for a crank signal just like the factory ECU did.

I've opted to migrate to a trigger wheel on the crankshaft. I don't know if Pro-m supports that or not. If not, then a later model cam sensor is not an option for Pro-m because you need the factory vane window unmodified for the crank trigger.

If I decide to make the switch to sequential spark and fuel I need a cam signal. My options are to either run the later model cam sensor or,

Modify the stock distributor vane wheel to have a single tooth, and then if I want it to look good find a replacement for the distributor cap.

The benefits for me to running the later model cam sensor is that they don't require modification and I don't need to run a whole TFI module just to extract the cam signal.

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post #17 of 36 Old 07-13-2015, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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what are your 90 lb injectors, high or low impedance? pro-m doesn"t support low impedance injectors. you would have to switch to id1000"s or similar high impedance injectors.
It's been 4 years since I bought them and we put resistors inline for the AEM to run them. I can't remember which ones they are at this moment.

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post #18 of 36 Old 07-14-2015, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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I've let my car sit untouched for 3 years now. I'm a little fuzzy on all the details but I have receipts for everything so I can reference some of the items to clarify. About 4 years I took my car to the track for the first time. I made a few passes but the clutch wouldn't hold up. I sent it back to the tuner/shop that had been tuning on it and was just going to let them put a new twin disc in. After months of issues the clutch was finally in a few other parts. Then I was told that the AEM EMS had an issue and they had sent it back to the company for some testing and work. I have never seen the AEM system since then. That was a little discouraging so I haven't worked on anything. Now I have my own garage to use and I'm married and had a baby boy I am ready to wipe the dust off and put this car back on the street.

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post #19 of 36 Old 07-14-2015, 09:37 AM
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That's one thing about this game that always bugged me, the thieves are everywhere.

Good luck breathing life back in to the car. Time, persistence, and patience and it will happen.

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post #20 of 36 Old 07-14-2015, 05:03 PM Thread Starter
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That's one thing about this game that always bugged me, the thieves are everywhere.

Good luck breathing life back in to the car. Time, persistence, and patience and it will happen.
Thanks

I have a few changes I want to do. Like sell the 6 speed setup and put in a auto, change over to coil on plug, and remove the solid lift setup and go back to hydraulic to make it more street friendly.

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post #21 of 36 Old 07-14-2015, 05:06 PM
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6 speed to auto? that's just crazy talk

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post #22 of 36 Old 07-14-2015, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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6 speed to auto? that's just crazy talk
Less fun but way faster lol

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post #23 of 36 Old 07-15-2015, 10:11 AM
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Less fun but way faster lol
Tell you what, ship me the 6 speed, and once you've realized your mistake I promise I'll make it way less expensive for you to go back than the next guy would.

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post #24 of 36 Old 07-15-2015, 12:22 PM
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if you added resistors they are low impedance. right converter automatics are fun too!
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post #25 of 36 Old 07-15-2015, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Tell you what, ship me the 6 speed, and once you've realized your mistake I promise I'll make it way less expensive for you to go back than the next guy would.
everything has a price lol

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post #26 of 36 Old 07-16-2015, 11:37 PM
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I bought the Pro-M, COP, MAF and Injectors. I can probably do any system but as I get older I wanted ease of install and tuning. Pro-M offers that with their setup.

My install is delayed as I have to do some interior electrical work first, suspension upgrades along with frame connectors and torque box mods.
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post #27 of 36 Old 07-17-2015, 07:50 AM Thread Starter
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I bought the Pro-M, COP, MAF and Injectors. I can probably do any system but as I get older I wanted ease of install and tuning. Pro-M offers that with their setup.

My install is delayed as I have to do some interior electrical work first, suspension upgrades along with frame connectors and torque box mods.
Let me know how it works

I may try to do some internal work first and maybe an auto before I buy and install a system.

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if you added resistors they are low impedance. right converter automatics are fun too!
The reason injectors are made low-Z is to speed the response time, and make response time windows when they open and shut very small. This allows a large injector to be accurately used at low duty cycles, because the opening and closing time becomes smaller compared to the open time.

Resistors are dumb, but cheap, way to use low-Z injectors and not damage electronics. I can go into the technical reasons why, but the bottom line is resistors always slow the opening time of injectors significantly. They also make the injector less stable in opening and closing rates as fuel pressure, manifold pressure, voltage, and temperature changes.

The proper way to use low-Z injectors would be to add a simple external peak and hold current buffer to the electronics. I'm not sure if anyone makes them, but it would really just be a few $2 transistors on a heat sink plus some smaller cheaper parts. I would guess retail would be less than $200 for a high quality splice-in buffer system.

As for the differences between Holly and other systems, some systems do not sequence the injectors. The just random or batch fire injectors. This is not an issue at WOT or heavy loads, but it can be an issue at light loads and idle. It is made worse as injectors become larger.

At WOT and at heavy loads, or any case where injector on-time is high, you can get away with lots of sloppy stuff. When the opening time closes down, timing and opening and closing rates become important.

An all out race car only driven to the starting line and at WOT can get away with all sorts of stuff, but I would never use a non-sequential EFI system on the street (especially with large injectors).


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post #29 of 36 Old 07-17-2015, 01:51 PM
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The proper way to use low-Z injectors would be to add a simple external peak and hold current buffer to the electronics. I'm not sure if anyone makes them
Peak&Hold Injector Driver Board for Megasquirt


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post #30 of 36 Old 07-17-2015, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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The old AEM wouldn't support my injectors without a $350 dollar box, the guy tuning the car said he could use the resistor and work fine. I never did the research into why it worked. I think we were at about 40% duty cycle. The new system will be able to run them or I won't get it. Thanks for the info!

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The old AEM wouldn't support my injectors without a $350 dollar box, the guy tuning the car said he could use the resistor and work fine. I never did the research into why it worked. I think we were at about 40% duty cycle. The new system will be able to run them or I won't get it. Thanks for the info!
It will work, but "fine" is questionable. It is probably OK at high duty with most injectors. You are making a good choice to avoid that nonsense.

Let's assume you have 5 ohm injectors and 14.5 volt battery. A typical saturated transistor would drop about .8 volts over a wide range of current, so you have 14.5-.8 = 13.7 to deal with.

I'm just going to make up numbers. Let's say the injector is 5 ohms, and the wiring loop resistance .5 ohms, and your tuner uses a 4.7 ohm resistor to get up closer to the 10-15 ohms of a hi-Z injector.

Add the resistances:

.5+ 5+ 4.7 = 10.2 ohms

Divide available voltage by total resistance:

13.7/10.2 = 1.34 amps

Now multiply that answer, 1.34, times any resistance and you have the voltage across that component.

1.34 * 5 = 6.7 volts

You are running the injector on 6.7 volts.

What this does is slow the injector opening significantly, speed the injector closing slightly, and make the injector more sensitive to voltage supply, temperature, and pressure changes.

Running injectors on reduced voltage at opening, which is what the resistor does, is stupid. A proper circuit would apply full voltage to snap the injector open smartly, and then fold back to a reduced hold current, then do a normal release. It costs about 50 bucks in parts and materials to do that, so it would probably cost a few hundred out the door from a manufacturer.


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post #32 of 36 Old 07-17-2015, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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That makes sense. I had never really even thought about it. That's good information to know. its been a long time since I have made a board and it was a really simple piece. I guess I need learn a little more about them and try my hand at some of this stuff. I seen a few over your pieces and they looked real nice.

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post #33 of 36 Old 07-18-2015, 11:55 AM
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It will work, but "fine" is questionable. It is probably OK at high duty with most injectors. You are making a good choice to avoid that nonsense.

Let's assume you have 5 ohm injectors and 14.5 volt battery. A typical saturated transistor would drop about .8 volts over a wide range of current, so you have 14.5-.8 = 13.7 to deal with.

I'm just going to make up numbers. Let's say the injector is 5 ohms, and the wiring loop resistance .5 ohms, and your tuner uses a 4.7 ohm resistor to get up closer to the 10-15 ohms of a hi-Z injector.

Add the resistances:

.5+ 5+ 4.7 = 10.2 ohms

Divide available voltage by total resistance:

13.7/10.2 = 1.34 amps

Now multiply that answer, 1.34, times any resistance and you have the voltage across that component.

1.34 * 5 = 6.7 volts

You are running the injector on 6.7 volts.
Thanks for this post Tom. When I read it I thought "that can't be right" but it lead me to some homework and sure enough, it's right. I didn't realize that each component in a circuit "used up" some of the available voltage and it's only the current that remains constant for each element.

Also, Terry, you should be able to adapt the above drivers that I linked to work with any ECU, and they're a little under $50 each fully populated for 4 injectors, so you're looking at around $100 and some hook-up time to properly drive peak & hold injectors if whatever you buy won't do it out of the box.

The instructions available apply to megasquirt but if you understand what the instructions are having you do; They hook up the same way to any ecu (am I repeating myself? I think I am. /post) .

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post #34 of 36 Old 07-18-2015, 09:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Thanks for this post Tom. When I read it I thought "that can't be right" but it lead me to some homework and sure enough, it's right. I didn't realize that each component in a circuit "used up" some of the available voltage and it's only the current that remains constant for each element.

Also, Terry, you should be able to adapt the above drivers that I linked to work with any ECU, and they're a little under $50 each fully populated for 4 injectors, so you're looking at around $100 and some hook-up time to properly drive peak & hold injectors if whatever you buy won't do it out of the box.

The instructions available apply to megasquirt but if you understand what the instructions are having you do; They hook up the same way to any ecu (am I repeating myself? I think I am. /post) .
I checked them out, thanks for the link I didn't study how the worked just breezed throw that stuff. I'm a little ways out from buying anything yet. I do love all the knowledge I'm gaining from these post.

94 GT Iris Clearcoat metallic
347, YSI @14psi, T56 Magnum, Aeromotive fuel system,
Trick flow heads and intake, 660rwhp 600+rwlbft
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post #35 of 36 Old 07-20-2015, 08:44 PM
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i also use to have the aem ems in my car and within the last year went installed the pro-m along with a 92mm meter and swapped out my low impedance 83s for a set of ID1000s. motor is a 333 with a 5 speed and a ysi

i looked at all the systems as well and kept going towards the pro-m. after speaking with people with the system and talking to chris i knew it was for me.

the car literally could not run better and i have not touched anything on the tune that came with the computer. cold starts, warm starts, drive ability, wot... the car just runs fantastic.

it really is that simple. no worry about tuning for weather anymore or padding the ve table on a pulley change etc etc. i have a thread somewhere that i need to update and put some videos in. i have been enjoying my car again and it has seen the road more now with the pro-m then it has in the last 10 years.

chris really does go above and beyond with customer service.

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93 GT
66 Coupe

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