Pro-M overhead 4-bb MAF sensor (inside air cleaner, no elbow) - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 33 Old 12-26-2014, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Pro-M RETRO-look EFI w.overhead-MAF-sensor (not w. elbow)

Hi all,

i have ordered the Pro-M EFI complete Hot-Rod System, the one with aluminium spider, 4-barrel throttle body and a MAF-sensor that is set-up to sit within the air cleaner, directly above the tb.

As it is a project in progress it will still take a while to get this engine fired up or even drive.

I don`t know since when this set-up with the overhead sensor is available, but i am curious if someone around here has it and wanting to share his experience, or knows about.



That shows where i am so far, the sensor is not mounted yet as there will be a shaker hood that has to be built from scratch.

So if anyone with experience about that intake / sensor wants to share i would be glad.
Cheers

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post #2 of 33 Old 12-31-2014, 11:15 AM
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I am interested to see that sensor mounted just to see what it looks like. Also would like to read your take on how it all runs. Have thought about this very setup.

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post #3 of 33 Old 12-31-2014, 01:44 PM
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I'd love to see more pics of this setup as well. I'm looking into doing the complete Pro-M setup on my car, but would have to pull off the stuff I already have on there to make it cost effective...

I have an Accufab 4150 on top of a modified victor junior right now, but the Pro-M stuff uses Ford sensors for IAC and things like that instead of the GM ones.

1993 Cobra #235. Stage 2+ TFS TW heads from TEA, Stage 1 TFS cam, etc.....

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post #4 of 33 Old 12-31-2014, 01:53 PM
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I have thought about this setup also a while ago.. I do not have first hand experience. But a few things come to mind. First what kind of resolution is obtainable? WOT shouldn't be hard to tune but what about idle and cruse? Would simply changing the air cleaner housing change the flow curve of the MAF?

Second is how big of an air restriction is it?
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post #5 of 33 Old 12-31-2014, 02:33 PM
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After looking at the picture of it, I'm curious how much height it will add to the air cleaner and the restriction as well....



I may have to start looking into the SD systems if it adds too much height to the engine, I'm already going to have to get a cowl I'm guessing but don't want a 5" one if I can prevent it.

1993 Cobra #235. Stage 2+ TFS TW heads from TEA, Stage 1 TFS cam, etc.....

Fordstrokers built 427w on the engine stand, soon to be in the car !!!!
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post #6 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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** Happy New Year to you all **

I hope on progress soon, so that i can supply more pictures. But for the very moment i have a hold on the project.

For the height of the set-up - as how i got the descripition the sensor is sitting inside of the filter assembly itself.

To quote Pro-M :

".... The Pro-M Racing Stage 2 On Throttle Body Mass Air Meter is custom designed to work with the Pro-M Racing 1000 CFM Throttle Body.
The Stage 2 Meter is calibrated for use with 36# / HR fuel injectors and larger, and works with the Pro-M EFI Engine Management System.

With this Stage 2 On Throttle Body Mass Air Meter you will receive an aluminum mounting ring and the Pro-M Racing patented Frequency to Voltage Converter.
The radiused opening and center air foil allow for excellent air flow and minimal pressure drop.
It's unique design allows it to be hidden inside a typical 4 barrel universal air cleaner assembly, allowing you to maintain the vintage carbureted look. ..."

For restriction, Pro-M is saying they set-up the parts so that there are no issues about losses, it just has to be properly sized.
There has been a video in i think three parts, where the owner of Pro-M answered that question and explained the system.
Michael Plummer on here has a thread on it.
Maybe he chimes in here.

Bender - the tb comes with idle control motor already mounted.
The reviews that i have seen on here the owners seem to be very satisfied with idle and low rpm cruise and overall driveability.
Though none of them had that exact 4-barrel set-up and sensor.

From my own research it seems to me that a big part of the sweetness of the MAF-Efi vs the Speed Densitiy-systems is the real-world driveability, with perfect idle and cruise control, like stock motors and ECM´s even when using on performance engines.

As it measures the incoming air instead of guessing it by TPS-information and programmed fuel tables like with the SD-systems, the MAF-systems are said to be more forgiving when it comes to changes on the engine like air-cleaner or exhaust etc.
So my guess is changes on air cleaner housing wouldn`t be an issue.

I have swapped out my beautiful 102mm-Nick Williams throttle body and 102mm composite F.A.S.T.-intake for that Pro-M set-up, so i am really hoping to get the best out of it.....

For a complete Vintage look it would have been even better to eliminate the sequential injectors and use a wet intake, but because of functionality i don`t want to go that far.
I rather hope that i am able to somewhat hide the fuel rails underneath the shaker scoop assembly.
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post #7 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 12:39 PM
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I just sent them an email to discuss things further, but my problem is that I was originally going to be going with an AEM standalone, but the ease of use and the entire new engine harness is drawing me to the Pro-M unit. The problem I'm running into is I already have many of the components so I need to find out what my best plan of attack will be.



I know I'll have to sell the AEM EPM to go with the Pro-M COP setup, but I already have the coils that I bought, but their COP setup comes with 8 coils. I already have a Victor Junior intake I spent a good chunk of change having converted to EFI, but would I be better off going with their intake. I already have an accufab 4150 TB but it has GM sensors on it, so would I have to sell the Accufab piece to buy one of theirs to work with their unit, etc....

1993 Cobra #235. Stage 2+ TFS TW heads from TEA, Stage 1 TFS cam, etc.....

Fordstrokers built 427w on the engine stand, soon to be in the car !!!!
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post #8 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Sweet looking engine !

Oh yeah, i know what you mean, these things happen during projects... i have a long list of parts that i changed out during the build...
Most of it already sold, like Sidepipe-headers, Brake calipers as i changed colors, Steering-rack as i changed the system, Cold air intake for the manifold, already programmed ECM, fuel rails (wrong color again), this and that...
Now only the 102mm-Intake and tb left.

For manifolds, Pro-M tested the one that i have and found out it has better flow than the Victor Junior, but i don`t know if that applies only to the LS- Engine that i have.
Maybe they had tested yours also, i would ask them.
When ordering the kit, there was the choice if we wanted to use the one they offer, or another.
We opted for the one they had tested best for results.
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post #9 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 04:29 PM
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My stock 89 mustang 4 cylinder is SD. Runs and drives fine. Even at 190k.

One has to question why OEM's switched to MAF? Performance, fuel economy, engine wear, reliability..?
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post #10 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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Sure SD will do it`s job with a good tune on it.

There are Pro`s and Con`s on both systems, i only found the MAF-system suits my needs better.
I had the impression if peak output is not the main goal the MAF is a good choice for a street car, also i am glad i don`t have to pay the tuner for day`s-long creating of fuel tables, or trying myself and make the engine go boom...

Some also say the MAF-system is more accurate down low and has better response at low and mid range rpm, that would be valid for most street driven cars.

Some profs did good explanation on both...:

MAF vs. SD (MAP) :

Electronic Fuel Injection Mass Flow vs. Speed Density- Car Craft Magazine
if the links doesn`t work insert this to your browser :

hot rod magazine electronic fuel injection mass flow vs. Speed Density

( https://www.xcceleration.com/sd-vs-maf.htm )

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post #11 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easygear View Post
Sure SD will do it`s job with a good tune on it.

There are Pro`s and Con`s on both systems, i only found the MAF-system suits my needs better.
I had the impression if peak output is not the main goal the MAF is a good choice for a street car, also i am glad i don`t have to pay the tuner for day`s-long creating of fuel tables, or trying myself and make the engine go boom...

Some also say the MAF-system is more accurate down low and has better response at low and mid range rpm, that would be valid for most street driven cars.

Some profs did good explanation on both...:

MAF vs. SD (MAP) :

Electronic Fuel Injection Mass Flow vs. Speed Density- Car Craft Magazine
if the links doesn`t work insert this to your browser :

hot rod magazine electronic fuel injection mass flow vs. Speed Density
( http://<font color="Red"><font size=...</font></font> )

That is a good read.. The first disadvantage of the MAF is "sensitive to changes to the intake plumbing". This is where I question a MAF on top of a 4150 TB. Typically with a standard MAF application there are basic rules. One being no bends directly in front or behind the MAF. I'm sure you have heard of clocking a MAF.

So with clocking in mind with a meter directly over a 4150 TB... Think of where your primary throttle blades are in relation to the MAF. Not necessarily the housing but where the MAF actually meters the air. Now what happens when the secondary throttle blades start to open? Now add a single or dual snorkel air cleaner assembly used on a lot of old mustangs... I see ton of variables here. But then again maybe Pro-M has all this figured out.
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post #12 of 33 Old 01-01-2015, 06:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bender4601 View Post
But then again maybe Pro-M has all this figured out.
I truly hope for that, there must be a trick with it. To date they are the only ones to offer that.

Usually the MAF-sensor cannot be located like that one.
Here is what the GM crate engine control system instructions have to say about the MAF-sensor-position (I guess Ford and Chevy Engines do not differ much on that):

"......Ensure the MAF Sensor is mounted in the middle of a minimum 6 inch
length of 4 inch diameter tube, and is a minimum of 10 inches from
the throttle body....."
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post #13 of 33 Old 01-02-2015, 05:34 AM
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I was asked to contribute to this thread by Easygear because he thought I might have more information that may be helpful. First of all, I have no actually experience with this type of setup or parts. So I don't feel I can contribute anything more to the discussion. I do know Chris Richards has this type of setup on his own Mustang, so questions will be best answered by him. The information posted in this thread seems reasonable enough, granted I may not agree 100% with the posted links on MAF vs. Speed Density Pros and Cons but that's just my opinion.

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post #14 of 33 Old 01-02-2015, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Michael,

Looks like the 4-barrel-meter is something new, as info on it is not around yet.
If you don`t mind sure i am interested in your opinion or experience regarding the different EFI-systems, and from previous posts before in here, i think some other guys eventually are too.
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post #15 of 33 Old 01-02-2015, 03:53 PM
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The 4-barrel-meter is not new. I'd say it has been around for at least 8 years. Google "mass flo efi maf"..
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post #16 of 33 Old 01-02-2015, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks bender, i knew the names fusioned but never had the idea to search the 4-barrel maf via the previous "mass flo"-brand name....

I thought it must be of newer date, must have overlooked that somehow . . .
but that maybe is because it is not that long ago since i swapped carbs.

ERStettin and TealCobra may get the install pictures from there

Small-Block Chevy EFI System - Direct-Port Injection Kit Install - Hot Rod Magazine

1967 Ford Mustang EFI Conversion - FordMuscle


Modern Fuel Injection System For Carbureted Vehicles - High Performance Pontiac Magazine
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post #17 of 33 Old 01-05-2015, 01:26 AM
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Nice, going to have to give them a call when I get back and find out more about this for my application.
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post #18 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 09:41 AM
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Bump

I am going to be using a Pro-M on throttle body system on my new 363 in a '95 Mustang. So I want to bring this thread back to life. Will have some pictures of the engine with the throttle body, air cleaner, and MAF shortly.

Jay
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post #19 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 01:06 PM Thread Starter
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Jay, how did you find the thread - i have recently looked this section of the forum but than noticed that there is no page listing where you can flip through previous pages to surf older threads.
Did i miss something or is it true here on this board you cannot check for older threads, just only look the one page that shows up ?
Never have seen that before.

My build is still in progress, so no newer pictures, but here i have some web pictures of the 4-barrel-type set-up :

( Collection of reviews on the PRO M 4-barrel EFI, initially appeared in 2005 under the previous brand name QR and MASS-FLO )

initial introduction and product details :
MASS-Flo EFI System - Induction Replacement - Cobra Replicas - Hot Rod



comparison with Demon carb, but previous initial real world driving tune:
Modern Fuel Injection System For Carbureted Vehicles - High Performance Pontiac Magazine



Dyno test, shaker scoop install :
Installing A Mass-Flo EFI System - High Performance Pontiac Magazine


some more reports, if you like to read just copy it and paste to your browser :

Small-Block Chevy EFI System - Direct-Port Injection Kit Install - Hot Rod Magazine

1967 Ford Mustang EFI Conversion - FordMuscle

Modern Fuel Injection System For Carbureted Vehicles - High Performance Pontiac Magazine
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post #20 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easygear View Post
Jay, how did you find the thread - i have recently looked this section of the forum but than noticed that there is no page listing where you can flip through previous pages to surf older threads.
Did i miss something or is it true here on this board you cannot check for older threads, just only look the one page that shows up ?
Never have seen that before.
Google search; able to leap tall buildings with a single bound, more powerful than a locomotive!

Jay
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post #21 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 02:43 PM
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With the seeming abundance of speed density systems out there, I'm not sure how many folks will be willing to sacrifice some airflow potential for the benefits of a mass airflow system.

Actually having a measured quantity of air mass entering an engine is, however, more accurate than depending on calculated fuel tables, and it's nice for the end user not having to dyno tune the system when changes are made to the set-up. I do realize some of the newer SD systems are also capable of self tuning.

Interestingly, although Pro-M only rates their throttle body at 1000 CFM, Accufab (whom actually manufactures the Pro-M bodies) rates the same 1-3/4" butterfly throttle bodies at 1215 CFM.

https://www.accufabracing.com/thrott...-throttle-body

I don't have hard numbers (airflow vs. pressure drop) but have read the on throttle body MAF flows 1000CFM. I do know that it is an 85mm opening (less of course the center bridge) and I specifically asked how much horsepower it was capable of supporting. I've been told the single configuration (Pro-M also has a dual set-up for higher powered apps) is good to about 700 HP.

I had originally intended to use a carb hat and cold air tubing to pipe to a fender mounted MAF. I abandoned that idea since my research has pointed me to believe that a carb hat is heavily detrimental to naturally aspirated power levels. Surprisingly, I figured the big problem would be poor distribution to the short side radius cylinders, but in actuality it appears that restricted airflow is the culprit. Again, I have no hard numbers, just what information I have been able to eek out from various internet searches.

I found an air cleaner that fits the Pro-M throttle body perfectly, clears the throttle linkage, and IAC motor quite handily, and I think it even looks real nice. Stupid cheap as well. I will be getting the MAF early next week and will post some pics of how it interfaces with the air cleaner. Bottom plate of this cleaner has a 1'' "hump" in it all the way around but the filter base is at the carb flange height, so it's just a shade taller than the height of the filter element.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sd...00-w/overview/

Edit: I just did what one does when they assume too much, I truly have no knowledge of whom actually manufactures the Pro-M billet TB.

Jay
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post #22 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Google search; able to leap tall buildings with a single bound, more powerful than a locomotive!

Jay
Google search is one thing, but how about surfing in a forum like usual ? I was just wondering why the option does not exist to look older threads.
Obviously not because of Server capacity, as the thread still exists, so i don`t get the reason for ?
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 04:13 PM Thread Starter
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Don`t forget to swap out the filter element when you use that filter in the link, as Pro-M`s MAF sensor requires you to use a higher filter element.

If you need more cfm you can still add some, within limited range, when you are using a spacer with your tb ( given there`s enough space under your hood ).

How much power are in your plans ?
The Pro-M set-up with the 1000 cfm-throttle-body is said to easily support 2 horsepower per cubic inch with a free flowing single plane manifold.
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post #24 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petmotel View Post
Accufab (whom actually manufactures the Pro-M bodies) rates the same 1-3/4" butterfly throttle bodies at 1215 CFM.

https://www.accufabracing.com/thrott...-throttle-body
That`s interesting, where did you find that ?
I have only seen billet throttle bodies from Accufab, like the one in you link.

Pro M does not use billet tb`s, they have a cast tb, made from A-356 heat-treated alloy. ( Stable-Cast process eliminates pin holes and porosity that could cause vacuum, fluid, and pressure leaks, compatible with blow-through superchargers and turbochargers.)

The actual throttle bodies still show the original "Mass-Flo" Logo like the initial ones that they had contracted Palmer Foundry to make them, i was thinking Palmer still makes them today for Pro-M.
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-26-2015, 06:14 PM
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I might be assuming too much, but the black anodized TB is machined billet, reads Pro-M, and looks identical to the Accufab except for the Ford TPS, and IAC. I would guess they still have a stock of the silver Mass Flo units. I paid the premium for the black anodized billet piece.

Mass Flo EFI 1000 CFM Throttle Body with TPS and IAC

I'm hoping to be making about 600 flywheel HP. For a corner carver, however, a flat power band is more a priority for me than peak power. Engine is about 11:1 static compression, mechanical roller cam.

Jay
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 11:28 AM
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That mass flow throttle body doesnt look close to the accufab throttle body, linkage is different, and the whole body of it is different.

On my 700hp NA combination, the 4150 throttle body was holding the combination back. It might be OK with some of the smaller intakes, but on my intake, it provided enough restriction to create 2" of vacuum at WOT past peak torque, the 4500 shows very close to 0" of vacuum now.

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427ci SBF -- 9.86 at 136mph
http://youtu.be/2GKQ2xpZraU

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post #27 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 02:26 PM
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That mass flow throttle body doesnt look close to the accufab throttle body, linkage is different, and the whole body of it is different.

On my 700hp NA combination, the 4150 throttle body was holding the combination back. It might be OK with some of the smaller intakes, but on my intake, it provided enough restriction to create 2" of vacuum at WOT past peak torque, the 4500 shows very close to 0" of vacuum now.
Since I don't want to be responsible for disseminating bad information, I will state that I do not know whom actually manufactures the Pro-M anodized TB. I will edit above post to indicate this

That of itself does not explain the difference in CFM ratings between two very similar TBs with the same size butterflies.

Is your 700 HP engine the 427 CID in your sig? If so, that could certainly move a lot of air. In addition to the throttle body, did you use an adapter to the 4500, thus increasing plenum volume?

In any case, I'm interested in seeing how well this system does with a fairly aggressive small block 8.2" deck build. The throttle body surely does not look like it would be more restrictive than the MAF in this system. Were this a drag racing machine, I probably would have just went with a carburetor.

Jay
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by petmotel View Post
Since I don't want to be responsible for disseminating bad information, I will state that I do not know whom actually manufactures the Pro-M anodized TB. I will edit above post to indicate this

That of itself does not explain the difference in CFM ratings between two very similar TBs with the same size butterflies.

Is your 700 HP engine the 427 CID in your sig? If so, that could certainly move a lot of air. In addition to the throttle body, did you use an adapter to the 4500, thus increasing plenum volume?

In any case, I'm interested in seeing how well this system does with a fairly aggressive small block 8.2" deck build. The throttle body surely does not look like it would be more restrictive than the MAF in this system. Were this a drag racing machine, I probably would have just went with a carburetor.

Jay
Where did you see throttle blade size for the Pro-M throttle body? CFM ratings can vary by settings on the flow bench and the type of fixture used to adapt it to the bench... I would go with the blade size you think you need rather than the advertised CFM. I think with an aggressive 8.2 deck motor limited by a 4150 flange you are going to want the largest blades you can to limit restriction.

Accel has some interesting options, a friend used the 2 blade one on his 420ci dart and that was making close to 700 hp also.
http://www.efisupply.com/images/dfi/dfi4bbl.pdf

On my combination, when i switched from the 4150 to 4500, i did not use an adapter, i actually milled .950'' off of the intake and opened the flange up to a true 4500 hole, so i actually lost plenum volume, my intake already had minimum 4" of area at the center cylinders, and 4.3" at the corners. The switch was worth a solid 20-30rwhp over the 4150. The peak RPM's also were also within 100rpm between the two and it picked up power and tq everywhere.

Street car with a 5 speed
427ci SBF -- 9.86 at 136mph
http://youtu.be/2GKQ2xpZraU

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post #29 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 07:38 PM
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Yes there are lots of options, that is not what this thread is about. It's about the TB mounted MAF system from Pro-M. I already have the Pro-M TB, that's how I know what size the butterflies are. I also have the Pro-M computer, and the wiring harness.

Just to be sure, the computer is very sophisticated. It is capable of any type of processing one might want, it will do SD as well as anything out there if one was to want to go that route.

I'm currently uploading some pictures of the top end, showing some of the details I've worked out in my particular installation. Should be getting the MAF Mon. or Tues., so I should have the rest of the details ironed out next week.

Jay
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 08:02 PM
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A couple of pics showing a couple details along with the throttle body, throttle linkage and return springs, and the filter, and filter base.

coolant temp sensor.jpg

DSCN0731.jpg

DSCN0734.jpg

throttle linkage.jpg

fuel rail feed.jpg

Jay
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post #31 of 33 Old 03-27-2015, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Easygear View Post
Google search is one thing, but how about surfing in a forum like usual ? I was just wondering why the option does not exist to look older threads.
Obviously not because of Server capacity, as the thread still exists, so i don`t get the reason for ?
On the bottom of the Engine Management Systems page, there is a menu of display options. Set it to display threads going back farther than the default setting. You may take it all the way back to the beginning if you so desire.

Jay
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post #32 of 33 Old 04-01-2015, 08:01 PM
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I've got the Pro-M stage 2 on throttle body MAF installed now, and I took some measurements, and photos.

ID of the unit is 3.375", center bridge is .625" inches wide for a total open area of about 6.9 square inches. As a point of reference, their 80mm MAF (which has nothing protruding into it's airstream) has an open area of about 7.8 square inches.

Height of the unit is 2.25" not including the extra height of the center bridge. With my air cleaner which is listed as flat at the base, and the top which has a .375 inch rise above the MAF, it gives me 1.375" of clearance between the top of the MAF, and bottom of the cleaner lid with a 3" filter element. Total height is 13" from manifold base on the block to top of air cleaner with the 3" filter element. I've decided to use a 3" Boss hood, I believe I should be able to use a 4" filter element for a total of 2-3/8 inches of clearance.

Photos to follow.

Jay
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post #33 of 33 Old 04-01-2015, 08:22 PM
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MAF top.jpg

MAF bottom.jpg

MAF side.jpg

I glued the MAF to the filter base with RTV. Took the pins out of the plug so I could use a small grommet to route the lead through the filter base rather than the humongous grommet that came on it.

Jay
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