Anyone experiment with larger injectors on SD system? (Adding displacement) - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 06-03-2014, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Question Anyone experiment with larger injectors on SD system? (Adding displacement)

I have a 5.0 SD setup on my F150 (and my 87 Stang), and I want to increase the engine size from 302 to 408. I know the biggest thing with SD is keeping the idle smooth, then everything should fall into place just fine so long as I can increase the fuel to match the increase in air...

If this works on my truck, I might just do it on the Stang too... It won't kill me not to run a lumpy cam on a purely street driven car if I have the cubes to make it go.

The truck has an electronic transmission that is not supported by any factory MAF system, so without going to an expensive Baumann controller stacked on a MAF ECM, it pretty much has to stay SD.

Anyway, if I run larger injectors, will the SD ECM run them just like the stock 19s, but since they are larger injectors, they will add more fuel???

I know this seems overly simple, but it sounds reasonable. Am I missing something?

I did the math, and if you enlarge the 19# injectors by the same percentage as the increase in engine size, and I come up with 25#s. So, if my theory holds true, 24s might just work. Assuming that the injector rating means that they add that much more fuel with the same signal received from the ECM as compared to the 19s.
Thoughts?


1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #2 of 11 Old 06-03-2014, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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I have a set of 24s, and a set of 30s... so experimenting is not a problem.
I just want to make sure that I won't hit a dead end that I cannot overcome if I go through with this. It would be an expensive dead end.


1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #3 of 11 Old 06-03-2014, 11:36 PM
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Put a two bar map on it and some 39# injectors from a terminator.

1989 LX 5.0 - 333 Mexican block, Eagle 4340 neutral3.25" crank, Probe SRS 9cc dome .040 psitons AFR 185 Comp heads, FTI HR cam 239/244 613/613, Edelbrock Victor 5.0, 90mm TB, BBK 1 3/4, C4 and 4500 Circle D converter, 4.10 gears

2012 GT/CS 5.0 - Yellow Blaze Tri-Coat metalic, A6, HID.
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post #4 of 11 Old 06-04-2014, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Put a two bar map on it and some 39# injectors from a terminator.
In laymans terms, what will that do for me?
What is the difference between the stock MAP and a "2 bar"?
Will the 2 bar plug in and function with the stock ECM without conflict?

Thanks!
Dave

1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #5 of 11 Old 06-04-2014, 07:25 PM
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Stock map is 1bar or 1 atmosphere.

If you put a 2 bar map on, it would cut the VE table in half and this cut the required fuel in half. Thus a 39# injector should be within the limits of adaptive control when paired with a 2 bar map

You could even a run a blower up to 14.7 psi in theory.


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1989 LX 5.0 - 333 Mexican block, Eagle 4340 neutral3.25" crank, Probe SRS 9cc dome .040 psitons AFR 185 Comp heads, FTI HR cam 239/244 613/613, Edelbrock Victor 5.0, 90mm TB, BBK 1 3/4, C4 and 4500 Circle D converter, 4.10 gears

2012 GT/CS 5.0 - Yellow Blaze Tri-Coat metalic, A6, HID.
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post #6 of 11 Old 06-04-2014, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Chuck View Post
Stock map is 1bar or 1 atmosphere.

If you put a 2 bar map on, it would cut the VE table in half and this cut the required fuel in half. Thus a 39# injector should be within the limits of adaptive control when paired with a 2 bar map

You could even a run a blower up to 14.7 psi in theory.


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I have since Googled the subject, and it seems that the "bar" is the limits of the MAP's ability to function, and doesn't affect what it reports to the ECM. 2 and 3 bars are used on boosted applications for their ability to read pressures beyond 1 atomosphere, not for any ability to "double" readings. The readings are exactly the same, they just read over a wider range.

Therefore your theory of doubling info sent to the ECM is incorrect. It's the same info, the MAP just has the ability to read twice the range of pressure than a 1 bar. Not of any use to a non-boosted engine.

1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #7 of 11 Old 06-04-2014, 07:54 PM Thread Starter
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My dyno tune guy says the best way to tune stock SD for changes in displacement is simply finding the injector size that gets close, and then using an adjustable FPR to make the fine tune.

This way the factory tune can be used just fine, so long as the camshaft is chosen for smooth idle, but more importantly high vacuum.

So it sounds like I am on the 'right track'.

1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #8 of 11 Old 06-05-2014, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
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The readings are exactly the same, they just read over a wider range.
True, but the voltage scale of the output is cut in half. Regardless of the MAP sensor, they all output on a 0-5V scale.

1989 LX 5.0 - 333 Mexican block, Eagle 4340 neutral3.25" crank, Probe SRS 9cc dome .040 psitons AFR 185 Comp heads, FTI HR cam 239/244 613/613, Edelbrock Victor 5.0, 90mm TB, BBK 1 3/4, C4 and 4500 Circle D converter, 4.10 gears

2012 GT/CS 5.0 - Yellow Blaze Tri-Coat metalic, A6, HID.
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post #9 of 11 Old 06-05-2014, 09:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Chuck View Post
True, but the voltage scale of the output is cut in half. Regardless of the MAP sensor, they all output on a 0-5V scale.
Interesting... but why do I only find guys using them for boost?
I'd be interested to hear about people using them on n/a engines.

1987 GT 5.0/T5/3.55 [My Toy]
1990 F150 Lariat 5.0/E4OD/4.10 [My DD]
1981 Fairmont Futura 5.0/T5/4.10 [Son 1]
1994 GT 5.0/AODE/4.10 [Son 2]
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post #10 of 11 Old 06-12-2014, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratio411 View Post
Interesting... but why do I only find guys using them for boost?
I'd be interested to hear about people using them on n/a engines.
Because boost guys need the added range or they peg the sensor, you dont really need them for an NA car. Hes suggesting that MAP sensor as an alternative to try in order to use larger injectors. In a way, its like using a Mass Air thats calibrated for an injector size.

Cutting the MAP scale in half(going to a 2 bar), lets you run an injector thats twice as large. In theory!


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post #11 of 11 Old 06-12-2014, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratio411 View Post
My dyno tune guy says the best way to tune stock SD for changes in displacement is simply finding the injector size that gets close, and then using an adjustable FPR to make the fine tune.
Thats a long ways away from what I think the proper or best way is. Cheaper.....yes, best....not a chance.

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