Need a little help picking the right tuning system - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 04-20-2014, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Need a little help picking the right tuning system

Car is 86 EFI with A9L NA 347 street car, was going to get an autometer wideband, 42# injectors, 90mm lightning MAF, 75mm TB

I was dead set on the Quarter Horse until I heard how much is involved and seen alot not have success with it. Its still an option and if I go that route I will be buying the book. What about Anderson PMS series 4, I can buy one used for around the same price I would have in the QH. Im not trying to spend 2K on the Pro M. Im trying to stay around $600 but I can save up a little more if its worth it.

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post #2 of 11 Old 04-21-2014, 02:18 AM
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I would suggest finding out what your local tuner uses. I understamd the pro m kit is pricey I know that first hand. The systems cheaper in cost will have a steeper learning curve. Just do research on different systems check out their tuning software and see if you can become comfortable with them.

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post #3 of 11 Old 04-23-2014, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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How about the Megasquirt 2 ive been reading up on it and seams to be easier to use then the QH
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post #4 of 11 Old 04-24-2014, 02:43 AM
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Are you looking for more of a plug and play or something you have to do a complete setup and tune on? Are you going to run other things off of the system such as fans, nitrous, or a 2 step ect.? Some of these systems have plenty of user support and others dont. That is something else to look into. I personally went with pro m. If you want more info on mega squirt look up a guy know here with the screen name mr. Minnis. I personally know him and he has been working with mega squirt. He has had a few issues but it's been more of the vehicle issues not the software from what I understand.
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post #5 of 11 Old 04-24-2014, 11:53 AM Thread Starter
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Plug and play, car is NA on Nitrous. I will be running a dual contour fan. I am going to try the PiMP system, I just bought off a respected member 92rochp.
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post #6 of 11 Old 04-25-2014, 11:47 PM
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How about the Megasquirt 2 ive been reading up on it and seams to be easier to use then the QH
Haven't used Megasquirt, but I doubt it's any easier than QH. Explanation to follow:

I am proficient with the QH and I think it's easy. The one thing that seems to confuse people the most is just figuring out how the EEC thinks so you know what to change. But I think you have to figure that out with any method of self-tuning. The Megasquirt may have a simpler internal logic than a stock EEC (or at least the option to set it up that way), but that may mean reduced drivability. If it's a race car, who cares? If stock, then the QH seems to be better. It gives you all the capability of the stock EEC (and you can in fact revert tune to stock anytime), fully customizable.

The only other area that I see as a hangup is that you need a definition file for each EEC processor strategy. If you have an oddball car, that's a problem. If you have a Mustang with an A9L, no problem at all. Even so, there is a choice - freebie or paid version. I have heard the paid version is better fleshed out (more parameters editable), and clearer.

The Quarterhorse datalogging is great and VERY helpful for any kind of drivability problem. Even not tune related.

Since there are some technical questions you are sure to have, I recommend asking about support before you buy the QH from any given vendor. You can actually give pretty good support by emailing datalogs, if you are dedicated.

You also don't absolutely need a wideband O2 for self-tuning, though it's nice to have. This becomes more necessary when you have an MAF with an unknown transfer curve (or combination of MAF and intake that is untested).

A lot of the stuff that seems to trip people up with the QH (how do I handle load, what injector values do I use, etc.) is actually just as hard with other methods! They just seem to have better written help files.

Oh, by the way ... You also need a software program called Binary Editor. This works great, but support can be a little dodgy. If you buy it, ask questions upfront. I strongly recommend buying the dongle so you can reinstall the program if anything happens to your computer.

Oh, one other thing - if you don't have a Windows laptop, figure in the cost of a simple used one to the total cost of going this route.

I like the QH for sure! Best $400 I ever spent on a modification.
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post #7 of 11 Old 04-26-2014, 07:38 AM
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Haven't used Megasquirt, but I doubt it's any easier than QH. Explanation to follow:

I am proficient with the QH and I think it's easy. The one thing that seems to confuse people the most is just figuring out how the EEC thinks so you know what to change. But I think you have to figure that out with any method of self-tuning. The Megasquirt may have a simpler internal logic than a stock EEC (or at least the option to set it up that way), but that may mean reduced drivability. If it's a race car, who cares? If stock, then the QH seems to be better. It gives you all the capability of the stock EEC (and you can in fact revert tune to stock anytime), fully customizable.

The only other area that I see as a hangup is that you need a definition file for each EEC processor strategy. If you have an oddball car, that's a problem. If you have a Mustang with an A9L, no problem at all. Even so, there is a choice - freebie or paid version. I have heard the paid version is better fleshed out (more parameters editable), and clearer.

The Quarterhorse datalogging is great and VERY helpful for any kind of drivability problem. Even not tune related.

Since there are some technical questions you are sure to have, I recommend asking about support before you buy the QH from any given vendor. You can actually give pretty good support by emailing datalogs, if you are dedicated.

You also don't absolutely need a wideband O2 for self-tuning, though it's nice to have. This becomes more necessary when you have an MAF with an unknown transfer curve (or combination of MAF and intake that is untested).

A lot of the stuff that seems to trip people up with the QH (how do I handle load, what injector values do I use, etc.) is actually just as hard with other methods! They just seem to have better written help files.

Oh, by the way ... You also need a software program called Binary Editor. This works great, but support can be a little dodgy. If you buy it, ask questions upfront. I strongly recommend buying the dongle so you can reinstall the program if anything happens to your computer.

Oh, one other thing - if you don't have a Windows laptop, figure in the cost of a simple used one to the total cost of going this route.

I like the QH for sure! Best $400 I ever spent on a modification.
Curious what your experience is with other EMS systems out there, because if you haven't used them you can't really compare and recommend one over the other. Your words "I haven't used Megasquirts, but I doubt it's any easier than QH"

I can appreciate that you like what have and you think it's easier to use. I have had both and can say without a doubt that QH is much harder to understand and use. Anyone here on these forums who has used both agrees with that. You are recommending something that basically been decoded by hackers which some of it is guess work. Many of the definitions and the relationship between the various functions scallers and table are not completely understood. Yes the system does work in capable hands, but by no means is this easy to use and understand.

Did you have any help tuning your car with QH? How long did it take to understtand that just on the idle strategy alone there must over 50 or more functions tables and scallers that all interact with each other to get the idle to work properly under all conditions. Ford engineers wrote a very complex strategy that was no ever supposed to be decoded and for an end user like us to try and understand. Just take expample of the IAC valve control, do a search and see how many ways that can be affected and hues what they all relate to each other so if you change one the others need to be compensated for. The guys who do this for a living (professional tuners) don't learn this stuff overnight and are worth there salt when it comes to understanding the Ford EEC. Guys like us the end user are more likely to only scratch the surface of what is really going and never really get to understand how to get there car running properly.

The aftermarket EMS systems are less complex on the surface because, they are made to be understood by the normal person not engineers like the ford EEC. The strategies are also less complicated because they are not made to figure in such things as ford engineers did like emissions, warranty, longevity and much more in there design to make run an OEM car. They simply are made to control spark, fuel air via load and use much simpler idle strategies.

I did get my car to run with QH, but after long sessions reading posting searching for help and with help trying many things, lots of data logging and reviewing. But in the end I only scratch the surface and never got the car running well under all conditions.

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SOLD 92LX Dart 363 KB2.8LC Custom A2A with Stinger PIMP EMS 11.4 ET trap 138 MPH no Dyno time.
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post #8 of 11 Old 04-26-2014, 09:39 AM
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regardless which ECU you choose they all serve the same purpose, they are nothing more than a simple calculator

the stock fords are a little more involved because they are approached more form an engineering standpoint, the aftermarket ecu's are really simple and basic, thats "ok" but some of the higher level control the factory ecu's offer is nice to have for that 'extra' fine tuning, not saying others can't but its hard to compete with an auto manufacturer such as ford which has been at the fore front of engine management control since the early 1980s

as for ford's idle strategy, its pretty simple, I have a write up with in depth details of not only how it works but how to dial in your tune as well, I even have a "mechanical idle control" lockout, which makes the ecu control idle similar to a carb and eliminates 99% of all idling issues from ever even being possible

btw, if you have turbo/supercharged vehicle, the base tunes you can use with the QH will make your life much easier than any other tuning solution

EFIDynoTuning / Index

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post #9 of 11 Old 04-26-2014, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the help guy I decided to go with Stingers PiMP, seams to be more user friendly and got a good deal on a used one so if it doesnt work out I can sell it
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post #10 of 11 Old 04-27-2014, 12:44 AM
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Curious what your experience is with other EMS systems out there, because if you haven't used them you can't really compare and recommend one over the other. Your words "I haven't used Megasquirts, but I doubt it's any easier than QH"

...

Did you have any help tuning your car with QH?

...

The aftermarket EMS systems are less complex on the surface because, they are made to be understood by the normal person not engineers like the ford EEC. The strategies are also less complicated because they are not made to figure in such things as ford engineers did like emissions, warranty, longevity and much more in there design to make run an OEM car. They simply are made to control spark, fuel air via load and use much simpler idle strategies.

I did get my car to run with QH, but after long sessions reading posting searching for help and with help trying many things, lots of data logging and reviewing. But in the end I only scratch the surface and never got the car running well under all conditions.
I haven't owned and used the other ones because I didn't need anything besides the QH. However, I do follow along with the different systems to a certain extent, because I am interested. I have seen several threads recently that sounded a lot like, "Wow, the *** system is great! All I had to do was plug it in and I was ready to go! Oh, and I had to enter a whole mess of data about my car's engine size, camshaft, fuel injectors, MAF, and some other stuff. Then it worked great!"

Which, to me, sounds exactly like what you have to do with the QH. So how is it that much easier?

When I bought my QH, I got a base tune with it, and the tuner gave me remote help by looking at data logs that I sent to him by email. What I realized over time was that I was overthinking things. It's way easier than it looks. Of the few hundred functions in the EEC, you only need to mess with about a dozen. After reviewing what the tuner had changed, I ended up starting from stock and doing a more detailed tune that worked a little better for me.

There certainly is a lot more complication in a factory EEC than in a Megasquirt (though I understand that you can turn certain functions on or off to suit you with the Megasquirt). But they aren't thrown in for fun. They serve a purpose. If you don't want the advanced idle and emissions control, then maybe Megasquirt is for you.

Also, with MS, you have to be okay with soldering your own EEC together from a kit and troubleshooting it yourself. Or paying several times that for a plug & play kit. Or paying a few times more than that for a "self-tuning" kit.

I like the MS, don't get me wrong. I just think there's a lot of misinformation about the QH system going around.

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post #11 of 11 Old 04-27-2014, 07:32 AM
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I'm glad your happy with QH, and a good experience with it. How does your car start cold and hot, without issue? can you drive it immediately with no without bucking or stalling? Is your idle rock solid under all conditions? If so than you did a very good job and I commend you.

My experience and many others that I messages with on the EECtuning forums had lots of idle, stalling, declutch, hard starts cold and the list goes on. Search my same user name over there and you will find I was in a sea of crap drowning with many others. Yes my car ran I was able to get that done, but not well under all conditions by any mean.

When you say you read other threads about PNP systems that claimed to be great and easy to use but you still had to enter all kinds of data??? What do you expect that it will plug in and know your engine size inj used ect. Of course you have to enter engine data, every EMS made requires this information. The most sought after feature in an EMS is if it's user friendly and easy to use and produces quality drivability with ease. WOT tuning is the easy part.

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SOLD 92LX Dart 363 KB2.8LC Custom A2A with Stinger PIMP EMS 11.4 ET trap 138 MPH no Dyno time.
"The sound is unnatural and not of this world, like a screeching velociraptor with the flames of hell licking it's ass"
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