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post #1 of 148 Old 04-12-2014, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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Choosing EMS for a daily driver?

Any thoughts on an EMS that is up to the rigors of daily driving?

I need to retain dash function, climate controls, etc...


Quote:
Originally Posted by hondatech
One does not simply collect wins at the dragstrip. Victories there are guarded by more than just rear wheel drive... There is torque there that does not sleep. Not with 10,000 RPM could you do this, this is folly...
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post #2 of 148 Old 04-13-2014, 08:42 AM
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You might say what year of car.


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post #3 of 148 Old 04-13-2014, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, the car is an 89 5.0 Mustang.

I was looking at the Pro-M set up, and I like that it retains all the functions of the dash, HVAC, etc...

I bought the car with some mods that were never tuned for (cam, injectors, etc...) and while I have a local tuner that can do a great job for me, I hate the idea of being at their mercy every time I make a change or mod the car.

The car is nothing crazy. I just want a nice driver, something that I can use everyday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondatech
One does not simply collect wins at the dragstrip. Victories there are guarded by more than just rear wheel drive... There is torque there that does not sleep. Not with 10,000 RPM could you do this, this is folly...
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post #4 of 148 Old 04-13-2014, 11:43 PM
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PiMP EMS
MSPNP 2

Both fairly inexpensive and plug an play.

Just another slow mustang with a single turbo....
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post #5 of 148 Old 04-14-2014, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neat View Post
Sorry, the car is an 89 5.0 Mustang.

I was looking at the Pro-M set up, and I like that it retains all the functions of the dash, HVAC, etc...

I bought the car with some mods that were never tuned for (cam, injectors, etc...) and while I have a local tuner that can do a great job for me, I hate the idea of being at their mercy every time I make a change or mod the car.

The car is nothing crazy. I just want a nice driver, something that I can use everyday.
Purchase, install, enter in parameters, start, drive, enjoy, and you'll be happy you spent your money, on something that works.

Just spoke with someone yesterday, who is amazed at how well their car drives with the Pro-M EFI system. I asked him to post his experience on the Corral either in this forum, my thread or both. Hopefully, he gets his write up done in a few days.

Just make sure you have no vacuum leaks, good injector data (high & low slope values), and a proper calibrated mass air meter.

Thanks
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post #6 of 148 Old 04-14-2014, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neat View Post
Any thoughts on an EMS that is up to the rigors of daily driving?

I need to retain dash function, climate controls, etc...
The computer isn't involved in any of the dash function, climate control, cruise control, etc. on your car so that's a non-issue.

If you're just looking for something that can handle daily driving with a cam and injector swap, all of them can. If that's all you need I'd make the decision based on cost at that point.

If you have some more specific requirements then it's time to look at what capabilities the different systems offer and which one is going to fit your needs best.

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post #7 of 148 Old 04-14-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neat View Post
Sorry, the car is an 89 5.0 Mustang.

I was looking at the Pro-M set up, and I like that it retains all the functions of the dash, HVAC, etc...

I bought the car with some mods that were never tuned for (cam, injectors, etc...) and while I have a local tuner that can do a great job for me, I hate the idea of being at their mercy every time I make a change or mod the car.

The car is nothing crazy. I just want a nice driver, something that I can use everyday.
Tell us about the current mods. For a DD, you're better off with the Ford EEC-IV, if it's within the scope of the mods.

BTW, in spite of what others might say, there is no such thing as plug & play. It more like plug, & play, & play some more and some more, etc, etc.

Remember, your car is now 25 years old. Many things will need replacement, but parts are available and reasonably priced, for the most part.

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post #8 of 148 Old 04-14-2014, 11:26 PM
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I personally ordered the pro m system myself. I haven't been able to use it yet for many of reasons but it is a true plug and play system. And even if you want to have a custom tune for it just give your information to Chris at pro m and he can Wright your tune and pre load it before shipping.
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post #9 of 148 Old 04-14-2014, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
Tell us about the current mods. For a DD, you're better off with the Ford EEC-IV, if it's within the scope of the mods.

BTW, in spite of what others might say, there is no such thing as plug & play. It more like plug, & play, & play some more and some more, etc, etc.

Remember, your car is now 25 years old. Many things will need replacement, but parts are available and reasonably priced, for the most part.
Im not sure how you can say this? Its more like, plug & play, and then get a tune / tune it yourself...

Just another slow mustang with a single turbo....
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post #10 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 12:11 AM Thread Starter
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The motor is nothing special, just an NA 306 with a cam and 24 lb. injectors.

I hate the idea of being chained to a tuner as I change the car, so the SCT setup is out.

Then, I started looking at the quarter horse, or TwEECer set up. Both of them remind me of the painful road I took when I started burning my own chips for the 91 Corvette in my signature. Countless hours of com port problems, handshake problems, hex address issues, and just general frustration. Sure, I figured it out, and got the car ironed out, but I have no desire to go through that process again.

At that point, the cost started to go up pretty significantly. I wasn't sure where to go, so I asked here. I'm not made of money or anything, but $1000, $1500, or $2500 on the set up isn't going to make or break me - I'm more concerned about it doing what I want it to do.

This is my first Mustang, so I wasn't sure if the AC call signal came through the ECM; or what, if any, of the factory gauges were driven via the ECM.

Anyway, my goals are a car that drives nice, has AC, all the normal car functions, is something I can take my boss or clients to lunch in, etc... Just a nice driving car. However, if I decide to change the cam, or intake, or whatever, I want to be able to make the tuning adjustments myself. Beyond that, while I'm sure a dyno tune at a competent shop will yield great results, it's not realistic to expect the tuner to drive the car for weeks and dial in every little thing. That's something that an owner would do, and something that I want to do.

I just want to be able to tune my own car without having a bunch of software problems. On the Corvette in my signature, it was one kind of software to datalog, another to read the chip, another to edit the file, another to burn, etc... It all eventually worked, but most of the time the hardware and software was developed by another hobbyist. And while that stuff works, support is tough, and trying to get in touch with someone who wrote the software in their spare time from their basement is incredibly frustrating when all you want is the car to run properly.

Hopefully that makes sense to you guys. I feel like I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself, but that's all I got for now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hondatech
One does not simply collect wins at the dragstrip. Victories there are guarded by more than just rear wheel drive... There is torque there that does not sleep. Not with 10,000 RPM could you do this, this is folly...
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post #11 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 09:31 AM
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I've had a great experience with the megasquirt product. If you like to get your hands dirty, you can't beat the price of an assemble-it-yourself ms2 kit on a v3.0 board with an adapter harness. You'll need a wideband too, everything will run you about $600. This is what I run.

Kit
MegaSquirt-II Programmable EFI System PCB3.0 - Kit w/ BLACK CASE DIYAutoTune.com

Mod for your IAC valve
PCBv3 -- PWM IAC Valve Control (TIP120) 'Mod-Kit' DIYAutoTune.com

Adapter cable
Megasquirt V3.0/3.57 to Ford Mustang 5.0 Adapter Cable DIYAutoTune.com

Stimulator, this acts as a virtual engine to test your ECU build with.
MegaSquirt Stimulator v2.2 - UnAssembled Kit DIYAutoTune.com


If you want something you can plug in and start tuning with, the MSPNP is an excellent choice.
MegaSquirtPNP G2 EEC4A8 for 86-93 Ford Mustang 5.0 DIYAutoTune.com

The software you use to tune is tunerstudio. It is free for the "lite" version, which does not omit anything that prevents you from configuring any settings. The full version opens up some time saving features, like an "autotune" capability that can dial in your fuel map on the fly. You can get it here, and you can install it and poke through it now without having a megasquirt ECU.
EFI Analytics TunerStudio | tunerstudio.com

Truth be told, these systems are overkill for what you need but I think you already understand that.

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post #12 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 07:14 PM
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If you know how to solder & have built electronic kits before, this is the one I got: DIYAutoTune.com Megasquirt Kits / Assembled Engine Management Systems, Wideband o2 Sensor Systems and tuning products

No modifications to factory harness or hardware. BTW, it does not fit inside the passenger side kick panel. I mounted it under the glove compartment along with a wide band controller module.

This version is assembled & ready to take the place of the factory EEC inside the kick panel.
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post #13 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
I've had a great experience with the megasquirt product. If you like to get your hands dirty, you can't beat the price of an assemble-it-yourself ms2 kit on a v3.0 board with an adapter harness. You'll need a wideband too, everything will run you about $600. This is what I run.
seijirou,
No disrespect to you, so please don't be offended. Your knowledge is far superior to mine, and I do enjoy reading your posts. You have helped countless, and I do mean countless number of people who can't seem to get their cars to start, idle correctly, or even drive properly on this Engine Management forum. But yet you still recommend others to buy a system that has a huge learning curve.....why? Price should not be the deciding factor when buying parts, especially when you can't even enjoy driving your car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Black87Gt View Post
PiMP EMS
MSPNP 2
Both fairly inexpensive and plug an play.
Black87Gt,
How can you recommend a system when you have no prior experience with it? Granted, you made your decision to purchase it but it's far from plug and play system but I do wish you the best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
BTW, in spite of what others might say, there is no such thing as plug & play. It more like plug, & play, & play some more and some more, etc, etc.
Blown88GT,
I'm surprised. You have one of these systems, not sure which one but are you not still fighting drivability issues with your car? How long have you had your system? Does it idle like a stock car when cold or hot? Is the drivability like stock? Has it really been all play for you? Yet, you still recommend it....why?

Granted, there is a place for a low cost EMS but in my opinion it's really designed for people who have an above average understanding on Engine Management Systems. Some of the biggest turn-offs I see with these systems is the constant software updates to correct problems. The very confusing lineup of systems and versions. Go to this web page for this update, go to this web page for this service pack, etc. Software updates should be about new features and not service packs to fix existing problems. Man, I could go on and on but I'll end it here. My rant is over, and I welcome your comments, and no offense will be taken.

Thank you
Michael Plummer

849rwhp and 771rwtq SAE
ProCharger D1 and Snow Performance Water/Methanol
Pro-M Racing EMS

Last edited by Michael Plummer; 04-15-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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post #14 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 10:20 PM
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I understand what the op is saying these are things I looked for in my efi system before purchasing. But I also needed a new engine harness since I was doing a conversion from a v6 to a v8 and really didn't want to mess with 20 year old wiring plus I no longer had the time to mess with sorting out the harness on what I needed and didn't need. So once again the pro m was my choice. My efi system will be here on Thursday if you would like I can post a pic of the complete system i ordered. I didn't get anything extra so it will be of the base kit if you're interested.
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post #15 of 148 Old 04-15-2014, 10:50 PM Thread Starter
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A local Mustang shop here in NC will supply and install the MSPNP, do the initial tune (both dyno and street), and give me a run through of how to use the software for $1500. To me, that seems like the most reasonable option.

Thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondatech
One does not simply collect wins at the dragstrip. Victories there are guarded by more than just rear wheel drive... There is torque there that does not sleep. Not with 10,000 RPM could you do this, this is folly...
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post #16 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neat View Post
A local Mustang shop here in NC will supply and install the MSPNP, do the initial tune (both dyno and street), and give me a run through of how to use the software for $1500. To me, that seems like the most reasonable option.
Thoughts?
Sounds like money was a deciding factor, and that's okay because the system will work in the hands of a capable tuner. Now when changes are needed (camshaft, heads, etc.) how much are you going remember from a "run through" you had maybe months or years ago? In the end, this may have been the best option for you based on location of the shop, price and your comfort level using a VE based system.......Good luck with it.

I paid $2200 for my Engine Management System, and trust me that's a lot of money but in the end I got what I was looking for, an EMS designed, and written by Ford Engineers. Just added a new camshaft, long tube headers, etc. and no tuning changes were needed, it's the beauty of a mass air based EMS. The only downside, I'm not as engine management tech savvy like others, there's not much to do except download new software updates for new features.

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post #17 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neat View Post
A local Mustang shop here in NC will supply and install the MSPNP, do the initial tune (both dyno and street), and give me a run through of how to use the software for $1500. To me, that seems like the most reasonable option.

Thoughts?
That's a pretty good price for an MSPNP, installation, and tune as long as the shop does good work. An EMS is only as good as the tune that's on it.

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post #18 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 10:30 AM
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seijirou,
No disrespect to you, so please don't be offended. Your knowledge is far superior to mine, and I do enjoy reading your posts. You have helped countless, and I do mean countless number of people who can't seem to get their cars to start, idle correctly, or even drive properly on this Engine Management forum. But yet you still recommend others to buy a system that has a huge learning curve.....why? Price should not be the deciding factor when buying parts, especially when you can't even enjoy driving your car.
Michael,

No offense at all and I'd argue that you honor me too much!

The simple answer is that I don't actually think the learning curve is huge.

Now let me qualify that statement a bit. The way I see it, there are 2 parts to a successful implementation.

Part 1 is the use-case. If your use-case will be to use the factory ignition and RPM system (TFI) and and batch/bank fire fuel injection, the configuration for the ECU to work is really very simple. I think the challenge is often finding the relevant and accurate information of what exactly to do for this use-case, and this is attributed as a huge learning curve. There are different Megasquirt hardware options, but they aren't as "right and wrong" as it may seem. I definitely suggest certain hardware over others but any of them will actually work, and work well enough that at the end of the day the driver almost certainly couldn't tell the difference.
As your use-case expands the learning curve will grow. Sequential fuel injection, COP ignition, traction control, boost control, launch control, and more. Lots to learn there, but you don't need any of that. The OP in this thread certainly doesn't need any of that. His factory harness, an adapter harness or PNP, a pre-assembled ECU configured for a mustang already (available as a PNP or as a pre-assembled "full board" Megasquirt), and he's all done with Part 1.

Part 2 is tuning. At this point everything works, tuning is getting those things to work in harmony with the engine and the other tune-able parameters. In my opinion, the learning curve here is the same as any other standalone. You just can't tune an engine perfectly with any system if you don't understand how engines operate, what the purpose of the different tune-able parameters are, and how the difference parameters influence and dance with each other. This part does have a massive learning curve, I'm just on the surface and probably always will be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Granted, there is a place for a low cost EMS but in my opinion it's really designed for people who have an above average understanding on Engine Management Systems. Some of the biggest turn-offs I see with these systems is the constant software updates to correct problems. The very confusing lineup of systems and versions. Go to this web page for this update, go to this web page for this service pack, etc. Software updates should be about new features and not service packs to fix existing problems. Man, I could go on and on but I'll end it here. My rant is over, and I welcome your comments, and no offense will be taken.

Thank you
Michael Plummer
You're right. The biggest turnoff to Megasquirt is difficulty in finding the information that you need to know for what you want to do, and a support base that just can't compare to the "big boys" with their big price-tags.

The firmware update process could be more streamlined. You're not getting the firmware for the ECU and the software for your laptop in the same place. There's nothing to ping you that new firmware is available unless you find and subscribe to a forum thread.

To your point, there's a whole separate learning curve for the operation and maintenance of the system. So it's not going to be for everybody but in today's world, I still don't think it's that bad. We use computers and have smartphones with apps for this and that. I don't see it as any worse or unwieldy. To update your firmware, there's an app for that. To tune your ECU, there's an app for that.

Anyhow. I probably seem like a fan-boy though I try not to be. I think MS is a fine choice for some people and if I think it will work for someone my intention is only to point it out as an option and to help them find the info they need out of the forest of info they don't. If it seems I'm trying to cram it down people's throats I apologize.

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post #19 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
Purchase, install, enter in parameters, start, drive, enjoy, and you'll be happy you spent your money, on something that works.

Just spoke with someone yesterday, who is amazed at how well their car drives with the Pro-M EFI system. I asked him to post his experience on the Corral either in this forum, my thread or both. Hopefully, he gets his write up done in a few days.

Just make sure you have no vacuum leaks, good injector data (high & low slope values), and a proper calibrated mass air meter.

Thanks
Michael Plummer


Hi, Mike. Just posted. Anyone intestered in a writeup of the Pro M system can visit my thread here https://forums.corral.net/forums/engi...l#post13245353

I will be adding more to it including pics and will answer anyone's questions there regaring my experiences thus far.

Thanks,

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post #20 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 01:06 PM
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This is another great discussion here, and maybe an opportunity to think about how we, the novice tuner thinks about tuning or lets say getting your modified engine to run well. Most people here who are asking the question as to which PNP system is best, are looking for a system that plugs into the stock harness and with support from the designer of the ECU through tech forums and tuning manuals to get there car running.

Inputs and controls are something for sure to be considered, however the biggest task on hand is to learn how the software works with the ECU and apply that to get a engine that runs well under all conditions, like an OEM tuned motor. I think this is what we all strive for with a tuning system and where we meet the biggest challenges as well.

Now back to the term PNP. The only system out there that I know of that can claim it's a true PNP is the PRO-M system. Michael Plummer and others on the Corral have proven that, but to the moment Michael is the best example and has it well documented. Other ECU makers claim PNP, but in reality it means something to the effect that you can plug it in to the stock harness and works with OEM sensors but no doubt a steep learning curve is hidden in all of PNP promised by the ECU makers. I really see this as a fundamental issue of changing ones attitude and understanding and experiences with what's on the market for aftermarket ECU and tuning software. To Include myself in this understanding, it's almost like changing your religion, and not easy to do. I have talked with Michael many times and Chris at PRO M trying to understand and fashion the idea that a system that properly calculates load via a properly calculated MAF with an ECU designed around it could truly be PNP, "PLUG AND PLAY" and emphasis be on the play! Could it really be that simple, it's was hard for me to believe, and I imagine many others doubt this as well. I think the proof is in the pudding in Michael Plummers case.

I built my own car and it's motor and designed a unique system and have strived to tune it via so called PNP systems know for over 8 years. I started with the piggyback Anderson Ford PMS, then had help tuning via SCT chip through mail order tune, then 2 years with the A9L EEC and Quarter Horse, and now with a Megasquirts based system. With all of these systems there was a learning curve and support forums to help you along your way, and good help can be hard to find out there, as many people just claim they know what there doing and add to the confusion. Usually the Tech people are very good, but is it truly PNP if tech forums are needed with endless threads with people looking for answers sometimes never solved? I know I have spent countless hours with techs creating threads driving with my laptop, idling in the driveway, driving my neighbours crazy tuning cold starts and idle transitions.

My point to the OP is this, with all the other systems out there you will spend a lot of time trying to figure out why your car won't run well until you start to learn the complexity of the system and tuning. In capable hands, meaning an experienced tuner, I'm sure this can be accomplished sooner, but is that why most of us by a PNP system?

My hats off to the people at PRO-M for offering a breath of fresh air with a true PNP system. I've been on the cliff many times in the past years tuning with other systems, and not for lack of trying have not achieved the drivability and reliability offered by the PRO-M ECU. I have finally thrown in the towel and will be going to the PRO-M system and am currently waiting for my kit. I will be following up here and on other forums with my new PNP experience.

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post #21 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 07:01 PM
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This is another great discussion here, and maybe an opportunity to think about how we, the novice tuner thinks about tuning or lets say getting your modified engine to run well. Most people here who are asking the question as to which PNP system is best, are looking for a system that plugs into the stock harness and with support from the designer of the ECU through tech forums and tuning manuals to get there car running.

Inputs and controls are something for sure to be considered, however the biggest task on hand is to learn how the software works with the ECU and apply that to get a engine that runs well under all conditions, like an OEM tuned motor. I think this is what we all strive for with a tuning system and where we meet the biggest challenges as well.

Now back to the term PNP. The only system out there that I know of that can claim it's a true PNP is the PRO-M system. Michael Plummer and others on the Corral have proven that, but to the moment Michael is the best example and has it well documented. Other ECU makers claim PNP, but in reality it means something to the effect that you can plug it in to the stock harness and works with OEM sensors but no doubt a steep learning curve is hidden in all of PNP promised by the ECU makers. I really see this as a fundamental issue of changing ones attitude and understanding and experiences with what's on the market for aftermarket ECU and tuning software. To Include myself in this understanding, it's almost like changing your religion, and not easy to do. I have talked with Michael many times and Chris at PRO M trying to understand and fashion the idea that a system that properly calculates load via a properly calculated MAF with an ECU designed around it could truly be PNP, "PLUG AND PLAY" and emphasis be on the play! Could it really be that simple, it's was hard for me to believe, and I imagine many others doubt this as well. I think the proof is in the pudding in Michael Plummers case.

I built my own car and it's motor and designed a unique system and have strived to tune it via so called PNP systems know for over 8 years. I started with the piggyback Anderson Ford PMS, then had help tuning via SCT chip through mail order tune, then 2 years with the A9L EEC and Quarter Horse, and now with a Megasquirts based system. With all of these systems there was a learning curve and support forums to help you along your way, and good help can be hard to find out there, as many people just claim they know what there doing and add to the confusion. Usually the Tech people are very good, but is it truly PNP if tech forums are needed with endless threads with people looking for answers sometimes never solved? I know I have spent countless hours with techs creating threads driving with my laptop, idling in the driveway, driving my neighbours crazy tuning cold starts and idle transitions.

My point to the OP is this, with all the other systems out there you will spend a lot of time trying to figure out why your car won't run well until you start to learn the complexity of the system and tuning. In capable hands, meaning an experienced tuner, I'm sure this can be accomplished sooner, but is that why most of us by a PNP system?

My hats off to the people at PRO-M for offering a breath of fresh air with a true PNP system. I've been on the cliff many times in the past years tuning with other systems, and not for lack of trying have not achieved the drivability and reliability offered by the PRO-M ECU. I have finally thrown in the towel and will be going to the PRO-M system and am currently waiting for my kit. I will be following up here and on other forums with my new PNP experience.
Do keep us posted with the result. I have a 1993, 1.5KB and PMS4.I am looking to change to the Pro-M system with my 1.5 KB
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post #22 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Plummer View Post
seijirou,
No disrespect to you, so please don't be offended. Your knowledge is far superior to mine, and I do enjoy reading your posts. You have helped countless, and I do mean countless number of people who can't seem to get their cars to start, idle correctly, or even drive properly on this Engine Management forum. But yet you still recommend others to buy a system that has a huge learning curve.....why? Price should not be the deciding factor when buying parts, especially when you can't even enjoy driving your car.



Black87Gt,
How can you recommend a system when you have no prior experience with it? Granted, you made your decision to purchase it but it's far from plug and play system but I do wish you the best.



Blown88GT,
I'm surprised. You have one of these systems, not sure which one but are you not still fighting drivability issues with your car? How long have you had your system? Does it idle like a stock car when cold or hot? Is the drivability like stock? Has it really been all play for you? Yet, you still recommend it....why?

Granted, there is a place for a low cost EMS but in my opinion it's really designed for people who have an above average understanding on Engine Management Systems. Some of the biggest turn-offs I see with these systems is the constant software updates to correct problems. The very confusing lineup of systems and versions. Go to this web page for this update, go to this web page for this service pack, etc. Software updates should be about new features and not service packs to fix existing problems. Man, I could go on and on but I'll end it here. My rant is over, and I welcome your comments, and no offense will be taken.

Thank you
Michael Plummer
He asked for suggestions for a plug an play system, i gave him 2 cheaper options. I never stated i had experience although i will shortly. Not everyone has $2200 to drop on an EMS, and you keep making it seem as though MS is subpar when it is far from it. Many people have cars running MS that put down huge numbers, and run the times. Its all preference and how much money you have to spend.

Im happy with the decision i made to go with a MS based EMS.

Just another slow mustang with a single turbo....
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post #23 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 08:03 PM
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Cost always sways us, and many times for worse not for the better. In my experience when I was looking for a PNP ECU, the top players like BIG Stuff were in 3k range and I steered towards the less expensive MS based PIMP for $700 and this was coming from Quarter Horse. With both like said above great power numbers were achieved as most know WOT tuning for max power is not the hard part. I would dare say most of the users like myself struggled to get a really consistent and street able driving car. The challenge to the novice tuners is taming the idle to stay on target, getting cold and hot starts under control and low load idle to drive transitions to work and drive well. It's not that it can't be done and also not untrue that many have tried and failed. Many claim and have claimed to include myself at times that it drives well only to justify there efforts and also because sometimes you lose sight of what it's supposed to run like. I know I personally settled despite many efforts with sub par drivability and claimed its good enough. Drivability is highly subjective experience and many of us I think use our very keen denial mechanism to bury the fact that we have fan the peddle to get it to start or let out the clutch on decel to keep the motor from stalling. I know I have.

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SOLD 92LX Dart 363 KB2.8LC Custom A2A with Stinger PIMP EMS 11.4 ET trap 138 MPH no Dyno time.
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post #24 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Michael,
Anyhow. I probably seem like a fan-boy though I try not to be. I think MS is a fine choice for some people and if I think it will work for someone my intention is only to point it out as an option and to help them find the info they need out of the forest of info they don't. If it seems I'm trying to cram it down people's throats I apologize.
Never thought you were trying to cram anything down people's throat so no need to apologize. I just hope the people at Megasquirt and alike recognize your contributions to their forums, and present you with a FREE updated system of your choice for all your efforts. If I added up the man-hours in just the past year alone, you have in answering, and helping users with their systems, they would be getting off cheap by giving you a FREE system.

I'll leave you with this: They do not have the resources necessary to run an engine at an OEM level. So why would anyone expect it to drive-like stock.

They = Aftermarket EMS companies
Resources = Calibration parameters, knowledge base, money, thousands of man-hours, R&D, etc.

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Last edited by Michael Plummer; 04-17-2014 at 05:41 AM.
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post #25 of 148 Old 04-16-2014, 08:57 PM
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He asked for suggestions for a plug an play system, i gave him 2 cheaper options. I never stated i had experience although i will shortly. Not everyone has $2200 to drop on an EMS, and you keep making it seem as though MS is subpar when it is far from it. Many people have cars running MS that put down huge numbers, and run the times. Its all preference and how much money you have to spend.

Im happy with the decision i made to go with a MS based EMS.
I think you mis-read what I said about your experience.
I agree with you, you don't have any experience, is what I said.

Never said the system was subpar. In the hands of an experienced tuner it will work but it's not for people with little experience. It has a steep, and immense learning curve, and that is based on what I have seen locally, and what I have read on this engine management forum. WOT is nothing for any EMS, its about drivability on public roadways that's the problem, and a true test for guys like me, and maybe you too.

Trust me, I agree with you 100% on the cost of the Pro-M EFI, it's not cheap and my bank account is $2195 lighter. But in the end, I got what I needed, OEM drivability. Again, I wish you the best of luck with your new EMS.

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post #26 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 10:16 AM
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This has been a good read.

It is intresting to compare the $2200 Pro M system to the $840 MS gen 2 PNP to the $650 MS2 v 3.57 pnp (please add 500 to the Megasquirt for a new EFI harness and 180 for a wideband). If you build your own MS the prices are lower. I am not sure if the Pro M system will use a factory MAF or not.

Other vendors also have products that also fit into this class. I am sure Bigstuff3, Holley and Fast have an adapter to plug into the Ford's 60 pin conector.

All three of these systems in the first paragraph are fully capable of running a daily driver without any issues. There is adavages and disadvanges for each system:

The MS systems cost less, in turn you will spend more time setting it up. There is a tune for a starting point for the GEN 2 pnp, however you will want to tune the starting, idle and driving. I believe both MS units will run the MAF algorithm, if that is important.

Since you can assemble a MS unit, that introduces another varible for problems. Did you build it to support the hardware your car has (TFI, 2 Wire IAC, etc)? Is everything put together correctly. I purchased my unit assembled to avoid these problems.

Sure a lot to learn, isn't there with everything ? I've never had any issues with downloading the firmware or tuner studio updates. They are constently adding features or fixing bugs. The MS can be used on anything, I mean anything, any engine you want computer control over spark or fuel can run one.

The Pro M is the most complete MAF system I have seen. You can read trouble codes with a OBD 2 scanner. The harness itself is worth its weight in gold. I asked about buying one of their harnesses that had the LS2 coils connectors and they told me no. From the posts I have read it is a install, setup the flow curve and go. It does cost you though. How much is your time worth.

I will say that if I didn't have my MS3X, I'd get a Pro M

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post #27 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 11:14 AM
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The Pro M is the most complete MAF system I have seen. You can read trouble codes with a OBD 2 scanner. The harness itself is worth its weight in gold. I asked about buying one of their harnesses that had the LS2 coils connectors and they told me no.
My Pro-M harness included connectors for LS2 coils. All I had to do was mount the coils and custom make the sparkplug wires. I cut the ends off my Ford wires and installed LS terminal ends on them.

John

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post #28 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 11:41 AM
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My Pro-M harness included connectors for LS2 coils. All I had to do was mount the coils and custom make the sparkplug wires. I cut the ends off my Ford wires and installed LS terminatal ends on them.

John
I am not one to invent the wheel. I was being lazy. I wanted the harness by itself, no ecu.. I was going to cut the ecu connectors off and use their harness for my MS3X. I was willing to pay for it so i didn't have to deal with rewiring my car to replace my factory harness. I wanted the one with ls2 coil connections becuase that is what i was running.

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post #29 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 11:42 AM
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...
Blown88GT,
1. You have one of these systems, not sure which one
2. but are you not still fighting drivability issues with your car?
3. How long have you had your system?
4. Does it idle like a stock car when cold or hot?
5. Is the drivability like stock?
6. Has it really been all play for you?
7. Yet, you still recommend it....why?
...
1. See my sig., (DIYPNPF60)
2. Only certain hot start conditions.
3. 4 months.
4. Idles very well, cold or hot.
5. Yes.
6. No, less & less as not making progress with hot start issue. Learning a lot.
7. EEC-IV, A9L wouldn't stay running until engine warmed up. A9L doesn't support 400hp without intervention (chip, tune, etc).

I have no desire to spend $10k+ on a 26 year old car, just so it drives & feels like a new one. I would rather buy a 2015, instead, & I have the ability to pay cash. If you do stupid things with your money, that's up to you.

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post #30 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
1. See my sig., (DIYPNPF60)
2. Only certain hot start conditions.
3. 4 months.
4. Idles very well, cold or hot.
5. Yes.
6. No, less & less as not making progress with hot start issue. Learning a lot.
7. EEC-IV, A9L wouldn't stay running until engine warmed up. A9L doesn't support 400hp without intervention (chip, tune, etc).

I have no desire to spend $10k+ on a 26 year old car, just so it drives & feels like a new one. I would rather buy a 2015, instead, & I have the ability to pay cash. If you do stupid things with your money, that's up to you.
I don't think your being completely honest about your cars drivability and how the MS has run your motor. I spent over a week helping you troubleshoot your hot start problems. After looking at your VE table it was apparent you were driving a basically unmodified VE table that you got from somewhere, and it only went up to 100 load so it would never be able to control fueling above that for a boosted application which you have. I helped you generate a proper VE table that would be more realistic for your setup. The next day you told me you used it and went for a drive and got into boost, a big risk as the VE table was only a starting point.

My point here is that I'm not sure you have really spent the time tuning or have the tuning knowledge or experience to pass judgment on a tuning thread or forum. You can't start your car hot unless you flood clear first, you run a unknown VE table into boost and say your car drives like stock?

I think this is another clear example of bad information passing around forums from people who are trying to justify there own choice and experience.

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SOLD 92LX Dart 363 KB2.8LC Custom A2A with Stinger PIMP EMS 11.4 ET trap 138 MPH no Dyno time.
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post #31 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 01:43 PM
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A local Mustang shop here in NC will supply and install the MSPNP, do the initial tune (both dyno and street), and give me a run through of how to use the software for $1500. To me, that seems like the most reasonable option.

Thoughts?
X2

Having local support for a specific system could be priceless.. If your tuner is comfortable with the MS system and is confident in it meeting your goals I say go with it.

As previously mentioned an EMS is only as good as the person tuning/installing it.
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post #32 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 02:13 PM
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I'll leave you with this: They do not have the resources necessary to run an engine at an OEM level. So why would anyone expect it to drive-like stock.

They = Aftermarket EMS companies
Resources = Calibration parameters, knowledge base, money, thousands of man-hours, R&D, etc.
Couldn't agree more.

I watched a documentary a while ago about one of Ford's racing programs and their first go at electronic fuel injection. They used an engine dyno and measured absolutely everything going on; thing's I'd never thought to measure and even now can't recall.
You can get an excellent tune on a load-bearing chassis dyno but you can't compete with that. The best mod for enjoying your hotrod is realistic expectations IMO.

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post #33 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 03:09 PM
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I'll leave you with this: They do not have the resources necessary to run an engine at an OEM level. So why would anyone expect it to drive-like stock.
Because getting good drivability is a lot easier than jumping through all the hoops you need to pass factory emissions standards. A couple hours on a dyno can get the fuel and spark tables to the point you'd get excellent drivabilty (although you may need some adjustments to cold start settings and such if you run into conditions you weren't able to duplicate on the dyno). Making the car be its own emissions test is a totally different ballgame. And dyno tuning usually doesn't include very much trying to hit OEM levels of emissions targets.

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post #34 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 04:32 PM
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No disrespect, but I perosnally think that a few hours on the dyno could be a rather optimist time value in order to end up with excellent drivability - depending on the level of modification. Can it be done? Certainly. In three hours? Maybe, but I've never seen it happen with my car. As I mentioned in another thread, I got my car to what I considered to be an "acceptable" level, but never stock, and that was after several hours of dyno tuning, not a few. What's more, change a couple of things, and you're back to the dyno to get drivability "acceptable" again.

Even if I'm willing to accept that you only need a few hours to get a good tune, after you factor in the cost of 3 hours of dyno time, 3 hours of a tuner's time, and then all the ruturn trips if you're someone who can't leave things alone... the cost of a truly PNP EMS doesn't seem that bad anymore.

I can't speak for engine management systems other than Pro-M's because I haven't used them, and I will not trash talk any of them. I'm sure many of them are good -with some being better than others. My only intention posting here is to address the question from the original poster asking about a system for the street. I've put in Pro-M's and so far couldn't be happier with the drivability that I achieved on own in my garage with the car on jackstands over the winter.

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post #35 of 148 Old 04-17-2014, 05:41 PM
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Because getting good drivability is a lot easier than jumping through all the hoops you need to pass factory emissions standards.
Agreed, but who was talking about emissions? We're talking about drivability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
A couple hours on a dyno can get the fuel and spark tables to the point you'd get excellent drivabilty (although you may need some adjustments to cold start settings and such if you run into conditions you weren't able to duplicate on the dyno).
I'm not sure if the most accomplished OEM tuners would make a claim like that, never mind achieving "excellent" drivability.

Good drivability with a system such as yours is achieved through many many hours of tweeking out on the road, and it's a lofty goal for all but the most accomplished of tuners. I can honestly say that because I've seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
Making the car be its own emissions test is a totally different ballgame. And dyno tuning usually doesn't include very much trying to hit OEM levels of emissions targets.
Which is why I never even brought it up.

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