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post #1 of 36 Old 03-17-2014, 11:58 PM Thread Starter
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Plug and Play options SN95 which and why

As far as I can tell there are two options for a plug and play set up for my SN95, MSPNP2 and AEM.

A little info about my set up: 408w w/ twin 76mm turbos, C4 auto, 3500lb car. This will be an over powered street car, and see some strip time.

So which system will be best for my set up and why?
Thanks

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post #2 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 12:47 AM
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All that work already, go ahead and run a new harness too.

I have a plug and play AEM 1401 box that I used in the combo below. It took some learning to get it to fire with as complicated as my requirements were, E85, coil near plug, low Z injectors, etc. I bought as a plug and play knowing that I was going to build my own harness....big mistake. I should have just bought a regular unit that used their own connectors. Being confined to the Ford 60 pin was kind of a pain in the butt.

That said. I am removing EVERYTHING EFI and replacing it with Holley's Dominator EFI system and then some. It allows me to run all the inputs and outputs I want and datalog as many too. The AEM was restrictive in that regards.

If you have to have a PNP, my AEM will be for sale in a month but will be sold together with my AEM injector driver, engine position monitor (EPM) for CNP ignition, extra new Ford 60pin, extra female pins (approx 75), boost control solenoid (x1), and a few other odds and ends to help me clean out the garage.


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post #4 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1320notch View Post
As far as I can tell there are two options for a plug and play set up for my SN95, MSPNP2 and AEM.

A little info about my set up: 408w w/ twin 76mm turbos, C4 auto, 3500lb car. This will be an over powered street car, and see some strip time.

So which system will be best for my set up and why?
Thanks
Either one can run that. I may be a bit biased, but I've heard several people who have tuned both report they found the MSPNP tuning software easier to use.

The biggest question is whether you'll need the ECU to control anything other than fuel and ignition - as well as what your budget is.

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post #5 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Matt Cramer View Post
Either one can run that. I may be a bit biased, but I've heard several people who have tuned both report they found the MSPNP tuning software easier to use.

The biggest question is whether you'll need the ECU to control anything other than fuel and ignition - as well as what your budget is.
I would like to stay around 1k. I really like the idea of the pnp for the ease of install. For 1k I can buy a used FAST, or accel DFI gen7, or a few others.

What will a standalone do, that a MSPNP cant?
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post #6 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 07:53 PM
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I've been thinking about bailing on my AEM and using the MS too. But I just think the coil/crank issue bothers my. Don't ready understand it.
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post #7 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 08:03 PM
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why not just stick with the factory 94-95 ecu?

or if you go edis which i highly recommend, swap in a 99+ eec-v ecu that way you get the obd2 port too

the holley systems are junk and holley charges full replacement price for any repairs i'd stay away from them

MS is ok but requires you to learn the inner workings of an ecu

If you go the moates QH route with the stock ecu and get a tune done, all you have to do is plug in whatever AFR you want and what ever timing you want takes 3 seconds to do

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post #8 of 36 Old 03-18-2014, 09:33 PM
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Decipha,
I have a few questions.

1) why not just stick with the factory 94-95 ecu?
Q) How is this accomplished? Quarterhorse?

2) or if you go edis which i highly recommend, swap in a 99+ eec-v ecu that way you get the obd2 port too
Q) How is this accomplished? Quarterhorse?

3) the holley systems are junk
Q) Can you share why you think this way?

Thank you
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post #9 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 12:33 AM
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1> yes

2> yes

3> Holley computers are constructed with very poor quality and no safety precautions for voltage spikes or overloads, not typically a problem on a track only vehicle but lets say for example you ever need a jump or you fire up the car with the battery charger on it you WILL fry the ecu, and when you do don't bother calling holley to get it repaired, they will tell you as they told me,

"I'm sorry to hear you fried your brand new ecu the day you bought it, (but it is your fault it's fried), we do not recommend jumping vehicles with our ecu's as stated in our manual. We cannot repair your damaged ecu because they are sealed unrepairable units. Send us $1,000 and we will send you another ecu."

Because of that, I would never recommend holley, even the holley rep at the PRI event last decemeber had an attitude problem and verified everything stated above, so it wasn't just a disgruntled employee with an attitude problem having a bad day

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post #10 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Decipha View Post

3> Holley computers are constructed with very poor quality and no safety precautions for voltage spikes or overloads, not typically a problem on a track only vehicle but lets say for example you ever need a jump or you fire up the car with the battery charger on it you WILL fry the ecu, and when you do don't bother calling holley to get it repaired, they will tell you as they told me,

"I'm sorry to hear you fried your brand new ecu the day you bought it, (but it is your fault it's fried), we do not recommend jumping vehicles with our ecu's as stated in our manual. We cannot repair your damaged ecu because they are sealed unrepairable units. Send us $1,000 and we will send you another ecu."

Because of that, I would never recommend holley, even the holley rep at the PRI event last decemeber had an attitude problem and verified everything stated above, so it wasn't just a disgruntled employee with an attitude problem having a bad day
Thanks for sharing your experience, I really appreciate it. I need to check to see if my Pro-M EFI has any safety precautions for voltage spikes. Also thanks for your web site. Being a novice I've learned a lot, reading thru the different articles you have written/posted on there.


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post #11 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 09:22 AM
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What will a standalone do, that a MSPNP cant?
The MSPNP is a full standalone. It's just in a package that incorporates a factory ECU connector and has the same external dimensions as an EEC-IV.

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post #12 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 07:51 PM
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I need to check to see if my Pro-M EFI has any safety precautions for voltage spikes. Also thanks for your web site. Being a novice I've learned a lot, reading thru the different articles you have written/posted on there.
If im not mistaken I though the pro-m efi was just re-badged factory ford ecu's so it should be protected against spikes

glad i could help out, I feel the more informed we are as a community the better we will be as a whole

don't hesitate to shoot me a msg anytime

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post #13 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 08:49 PM
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If im not mistaken I though the pro-m efi was just re-badged factory ford ecu's so it should be protected against spikes

glad i could help out, I feel the more informed we are as a community the better we will be as a whole

don't hesitate to shoot me a msg anytime
There's been a few online that think this is a "hacked" OEM Ford ECU but it's not. Re-badged not sure what that means exactly but what I do know is this. It's a new ECU manufactured for Pro-M Racing, and it's made by the same company that makes them for Ford. No OEM Ford processor can be used in it's place, and likewise, the Pro-M processor cannot be used a direct replacement for any OEM Ford ECU.

Found out today from Chris Richards that the Pro-M Engine Management System has the same voltage protection that the stk. processor has and I'm happy that it does. Thanks for the offer, I may take you up on it someday.

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post #14 of 36 Old 03-19-2014, 09:30 PM
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Holley has always helped me when I killed a ECU due to a bad cam sensor.

Many others have had good luck with them.

Running a Holley HP in my dads daily driver Chevelle with 15,000 problem free miles.

All aftermarket Efi systems have problems. None are trouble free..

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post #15 of 36 Old 03-20-2014, 05:28 AM
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Running a Holley HP in my dads daily driver Chevelle with 15,000 problem free miles.
All aftermarket Efi systems have problems. None are trouble free..
Tim
Hi Tim,
You Dad's Chevelle sounds like a bad a$$ car and 15k miles and counting problem free is even better.

I will disagree that all EFI systems will have problems. I didn't spend the money I did on my Pro-M EMS to have problems, and if someone's system has problems then it's simply not a good system.

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post #16 of 36 Old 03-20-2014, 06:22 AM
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Trust me they all have issues. Fast big stuff aem Holley oem they all have failures. Now most of the time they are created by the user due to poor install or other issues. Almost every race I hear a announcement of someone looking for a ecu or power grid.

Holley has potted their units so it can be mounted anywhere and so people are not opening them up.

I have seen some really bad install work of aem and Holley boxes they were having issues until the wiring was fixed.
If you call any tech line they are going to ask how it is wired . But connectors and crimp on connectors are not good enough. Also people use cheap wire.

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post #17 of 36 Old 03-20-2014, 08:52 AM
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Just chiming in my .02 to agree with what everyone else has said about wiring. If you're running a stock harness you're running on 20 year old wiring and connectors.

All the PNPs and standalones have their pros & cons. I have my favorites for my own reason but it's mostly because that's what I've used most. If you're new to tuning, you'd probably be happiest paying someone for a calibration to get you started, then learn from there. So factor in that if you have someone calibrate it, they are going to have their opinion on what's best and is probably going to have more weight in your decision than anyone on this forum.

The up-side to running a PNP is that it uses the stock harness... The worst thing about a PNP is that it uses the stock harness. Old wiring that has potentially been meddled with in the past is going to cause issues (noise, false readings, random quirks, etc).

Like the gentleman that said earlier, if you're going to use a PNP then replace the harness with a newer one and save yourself a lot of headaches.

Also, don't forget to factor in that the factory style distributor used as the only means of an engine position module is sub-par and usually the first thing to be replaced (or at the very least supplemented with a crank trigger) when someone fires up an aftermarket EMS.

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post #18 of 36 Old 03-20-2014, 07:42 PM
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Q) Trust me they all have issues. Fast big stuff aem Holley oem they all have failures.
A) I'll agree that some of these units may have failed at one time or another but you make it seem like it's a common thing. And if it is, then it's not a good system.

Q) Now most of the time they are created by the user due to poor install or other issues.
A) BINGO and I agree. But the "end user" is not the manufacturer, and to blame the EMS as failed wouldn't be fair.

Q) Almost every race I hear a announcement of someone looking for a ecu or power grid.
A) Again, did an "end user" fry their EMS? We don't know that. As far as an MSD product failing, we all know their quality has taken a hit years ago. So in this case, move on to something better.

Q) I have seen some really bad install work of aem and Holley boxes they were having issues until the wiring was fixed.
A) I agree but that sounds like a "end user" problem and not a manufacturer issue.

Q) If you call any tech line they are going to ask how it is wired . But connectors and crimp on connectors are not good enough. Also people use cheap wire.
A) Wiring is an "end user" issue. Using cheap connectors is an "end user" issue. If the EMS comes with a cheap connectors, either buy better ones or purchase a better system that provides better associated hardware.

Some of these PNP comes with a new harness, like Haltech and Pro-M EMS. The Pro-M system comes with a brand new OEM harness. Again, if you're using a harness that is 20+years old, and hacked up, don't blame the manufacturer or the EMS if you have problems. The system is probably fine and it's the wiring. Again not an issue with the EMS. Remember, a quality system is not going to be cheap, and it shouldn't be.

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Last edited by Michael Plummer; 03-20-2014 at 07:49 PM.
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post #19 of 36 Old 03-20-2014, 07:47 PM
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Also, don't forget to factor in that the factory style distributor used as the only means of an engine position module is sub-par and usually the first thing to be replaced (or at the very least supplemented with a crank trigger) when someone fires up an aftermarket EMS.
Agreed.

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post #20 of 36 Old 03-21-2014, 01:42 AM
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Decipha definitely knows his stuff. He's a very knowledgeable guy that has helped many people with tunes, including myself! Would definitely recommend others check out his site and services.

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post #21 of 36 Old 03-21-2014, 10:17 PM
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anyone used he stinger PIMP?
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The stinger is megasquirt. It works well. Megasquirt has conditioned power input as well.

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post #23 of 36 Old 03-22-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decipha View Post
why not just stick with the factory 94-95 ecu?

or if you go edis which i highly recommend, swap in a 99+ eec-v ecu that way you get the obd2 port too

the holley systems are junk and holley charges full replacement price for any repairs i'd stay away from them

MS is ok but requires you to learn the inner workings of an ecu

If you go the moates QH route with the stock ecu and get a tune done, all you have to do is plug in whatever AFR you want and what ever timing you want takes 3 seconds to do
The Moates is a POS, only a handful of people deal with it if you buy it and find out that your in over your head. Steep learning with a price that matches a dyno tune. Only go this route if you have the time and money imo.
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post #24 of 36 Old 03-24-2014, 01:32 AM
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Honestly you should just look at all the benefits of all and the cons of all the systems and see what is best for you. Me personally I ordered the pro m kit for my 86. I'm doing a 357w swap in mine from a v6 car so I was in need of a wiring harness and wanted something that utilized factory gauges. I also like the fact their system's ecu is basically a factory Ford unit, even the code for the ecu was written by Ford engineers or at least from what I've read. Also from what I understand it's one of the easiest to setup and run. As far as doing a custom tune that will have its own learning curve just like any other system. Everybody needs and likes different things so pro m may not be the way to go for you but like I said look at them all and break down what you need and don't need and see which you think might be best for you and your application.
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post #25 of 36 Old 04-12-2014, 05:40 AM
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The Moates is a POS, only a handful of people deal with it if you buy it and find out that your in over your head. Steep learning with a price that matches a dyno tune. Only go this route if you have the time and money imo.
first off the moates is not a POS, just because you don't know how an ecu functions you shouldn't bad mouth the ONLY company that makes a full binary real time emulator for not only ford but GM, Honda, etc...

The QH is aimed toward DIY tuning, if you don't want to tune it yourself then why buy a DIY tuner?

And if you have any of the vehicles with the base tunes available you can follow the simple write up instructions and have a tune you can actually drive your vehicle with in minutes.

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post #26 of 36 Old 04-12-2014, 11:36 AM
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first off the moates is not a POS, just because you don't know how an ecu functions you shouldn't bad mouth the ONLY company that makes a full binary real time emulator for not only ford but GM, Honda, etc...

The QH is aimed toward DIY tuning, if you don't want to tune it yourself then why buy a DIY tuner?

And if you have any of the vehicles with the base tunes available you can follow the simple write up instructions and have a tune you can actually drive your vehicle with in minutes.
I'm supposed to listen to some 2 bit tuner that had to pretty much steal a tune under the guise of giving advice to somebody? I've read your stuff and at the least unimpressed.
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post #27 of 36 Old 04-16-2014, 06:50 PM
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I'm supposed to listen to some 2 bit tuner that had to pretty much steal a tune under the guise of giving advice to somebody? I've read your stuff and at the least unimpressed.
I hate to hear a good civil discussion get bombed with attitude. In my opinion if you have a personality disorder with someone take it off the boards. I have the utmost respect for Decipha and the knowledge he shares.

As far as my opinion and experience with PNP ECU's as an end user and not a professional is posted in this link. https://forums.corral.net/forums/engi...ly-driver.html

For the sake of not rewriting it, here it is the copy and pasted.

This is another great discussion here, and maybe an opportunity to think about how we, the novice tuner thinks about tuning or lets say getting your modified engine to run well. Most people here who are asking the question as to which PNP system is best, are looking for a system that plugs into the stock harness and with support from the designer of the ECU through tech forums and tuning manuals to get there car running.

Inputs and controls are something for sure to be considered, however the biggest task on hand is to learn how the software works with the ECU and apply that to get a engine that runs well under all conditions, like an OEM tuned motor. I think this is what we all strive for with a tuning system and where we meet the biggest challenges as well.

Now back to the term PNP. The only system out there that I know of that can claim it's a true PNP is the PRO-M system. Michael Plummer and others on the Corral have proven that, but to the moment Michael is the best example and has it well documented. Other ECU makers claim PNP, but in reality it means something to the effect that you can plug it in to the stock harness and works with OEM sensors but no doubt a steep learning curve is hidden in all of PNP promised by the ECU makers. I really see this as a fundamental issue of changing ones attitude and understanding and experiences with what's on the market for aftermarket ECU and tuning software. To Include myself in this understanding, it's almost like changing your religion, and not easy to do. I have talked with Michael many times and Chris at PRO M trying to understand and fashion the idea that a system that properly calculates load via a properly calculated MAF with an ECU designed around it could truly be PNP, "PLUG AND PLAY" and emphasis be on the play! Could it really be that simple, it's was hard for me to believe, and I imagine many others doubt this as well. I think the proof is in the pudding in Michael Plummers case.

I built my own car and it's motor and designed a unique system and have strived to tune it via so called PNP systems know for over 8 years. I started with the piggyback Anderson Ford PMS, then had help tuning via SCT chip through mail order tune, then 2 years with the A9L EEC and Quarter Horse, and now with a Megasquirts based system. With all of these systems there was a learning curve and support forums to help you along your way, and good help can be hard to find out there, as many people just claim they know what there doing and add to the confusion. Usually the Tech people are very good, but is it truly PNP if tech forums are needed with endless threads with people looking for answers sometimes never solved? I know I have spent countless hours with techs creating threads driving with my laptop, idling in the driveway, driving my neighbours crazy tuning cold starts and idle transitions.

My point to the OP is this, with all the other systems out there you will spend a lot of time trying to figure out why your car won't run well until you start to learn the complexity of the system and tuning. In capable hands, meaning an experienced tuner, I'm sure this can be accomplished sooner, but is that why most of us by a PNP system?

My hats off to the people at PRO-M for offering a breath of fresh air with a true PNP system. I've been on the cliff many times in the past years tuning with other systems, and not for lack of trying have not achieved the drivability and reliability offered by the PRO-M ECU. I have finally thrown in the towel and will be going to the PRO-M system and am currently waiting for my kit. I will be following up here and on other forums with my new PNP experience.

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post #28 of 36 Old 04-26-2014, 12:22 PM
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I'm supposed to listen to some 2 bit tuner that had to pretty much steal a tune under the guise of giving advice to somebody? I've read your stuff and at the least unimpressed.
you obviously have me confused with someone else

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post #29 of 36 Old 04-26-2014, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Decipha View Post
you obviously have me confused with someone else
Huh, that sounds that sounds familiar. I remember you had me post a tune over on a now defunct pos tuning website and you never gave me any input back.

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post #30 of 36 Old 04-26-2014, 11:31 PM
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I dont recall having any conversations with you off the top of my head

I searched my tuning laptop and I have nothing for "melo yelo"

can u post a link?

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post #31 of 36 Old 04-27-2014, 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Decipha View Post
I dont recall having any conversations with you off the top of my head

I searched my tuning laptop and I have nothing for "melo yelo"

can u post a link?
The site is now defunct, so no links. I remember that I had posted the tune for a review and then the mods removed it. The person that I had been working claimed intellectual property or something near those terms. I pretty much blew up and left after that. I don't even know what my user name was on that site.

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post #32 of 36 Old 04-27-2014, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 95410GT View Post
I'm supposed to listen to some 2 bit tuner that had to pretty much steal a tune under the guise of giving advice to somebody? I've read your stuff and at the least unimpressed.
I have seen that to be pretty common in the AEM arena.

Dart 348ci, Ed Curtis cam/valvetrain, Precision 76mm, Holley Dominator EFI, CNP ignition, tons of Holler EFI small parts, 4"dp, 4R70W w/T-brake, new suspension coming soon.

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post #33 of 36 Old 04-27-2014, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
The site is now defunct, so no links. I remember that I had posted the tune for a review and then the mods removed it. The person that I had been working claimed intellectual property or something near those terms. I pretty much blew up and left after that. I don't even know what my user name was on that site.

I dont understand, can u tell me how that has anything to do with me?

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post #34 of 36 Old 04-27-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Decipha View Post
I dont understand, can u tell me how that has anything to do with me?
I remeber seeing that on eectuning.org. Decipha is not a mod. on that site so how can you blame him?
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post #35 of 36 Old 04-29-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Decipha View Post
I dont understand, can u tell me how that has anything to do with me?
Your the one that asked me to post it, so you could take a look at it. Then never gave me your thoughts on it.

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