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post #1 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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Tuning software

Hello,
I'm posting to ask a few questions about tuning software. I don't want some insane kind. I know there's like kits or systems out there around 4 to 5 hundred dollars. Where u are able to custom tune. I want it because ill have it and if I make any changes to my set up I can do it myself. But doing this will I still need my maf recalibrated been reading a lot and recal is a bad idea. I mean recalibrating the maf plus the tune is 4 to 500 so why not be able to change the things you want. Any one have any good reliable systems.


93 Mustang LX Hatch-351w on3 70mm 9# airgap and 93 and 114 mix. 320hp 520tq. Pulled to 4700. Best 12.9 at 112mph<- Old
New->super vic efi, wilson elbow, f cam, and 15 psi. No times or numbers.
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post #2 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 07:55 PM Thread Starter
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Like moats and binary


93 Mustang LX Hatch-351w on3 70mm 9# airgap and 93 and 114 mix. 320hp 520tq. Pulled to 4700. Best 12.9 at 112mph<- Old
New->super vic efi, wilson elbow, f cam, and 15 psi. No times or numbers.
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post #3 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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I read a little actual a few hours of stuff alot to learn but I'm ready. I don't know exactly what I need to purchase for my needs if anyone has this setup. Plz let me know what your goals were and what u purchased so I have a better idea of what I need. And if I provide my goals maybe u can lead me in a direction..

93 Mustang LX Hatch-351w on3 70mm 9# airgap and 93 and 114 mix. 320hp 520tq. Pulled to 4700. Best 12.9 at 112mph<- Old
New->super vic efi, wilson elbow, f cam, and 15 psi. No times or numbers.
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post #4 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 10:14 PM
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Also check out megasquirt from diyauto. Software is easy to learn and doesn't use a maf. It is all plug and play or you can build your own. Has a self tune feature you can upgrade to which will get you cruising in no time if you install a wideband. It has a full list of features that are normally found in systems 2-3 times the price. Data logs, two step, flat shift, nos control , boost control, and many many more.

What you need
Laptop with serial port or serial to USb adaptor.
Wideband
Mspnp2 runs 839
Lc1 wideband under 200
Cheap dell d630/d620 100
Tuner studio is free upgrade for self running is 40 or 50



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post #5 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 10:28 PM
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I recently purchased my car and it had a Moates F3 chip in it. I was planning a head/cam swap and a tuner helped me out by swapping the F3 tune to a Quarterhorse. He disappeared on me after the swap, but Decipha from EECtuning.org helped me out. That is a good site to get info you need.

Short answer, if you go with a Moates Quarterhorse and BE, you can tune yourself and make adjustments as needed.

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post #6 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 10:51 PM
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Like moats and binary
thats the one!

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post #7 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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I don't fully understand the mega squirt deal. It completely replaces the EEC in my car. Is there any wiring that has to be done. It seems like better things come with the mega but idk to much about it anyone wanna help with what's all involved.

93 Mustang LX Hatch-351w on3 70mm 9# airgap and 93 and 114 mix. 320hp 520tq. Pulled to 4700. Best 12.9 at 112mph<- Old
New->super vic efi, wilson elbow, f cam, and 15 psi. No times or numbers.
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post #8 of 81 Old 07-30-2013, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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I really like the functions of the moats and the price is kinda on my side yeah imma need 250 for the quarterhorse then 90 for binary and then 180 for wideband. Still way cheaper then the main part of mega without the goodies. But ill wai to hear anyone's input

93 Mustang LX Hatch-351w on3 70mm 9# airgap and 93 and 114 mix. 320hp 520tq. Pulled to 4700. Best 12.9 at 112mph<- Old
New->super vic efi, wilson elbow, f cam, and 15 psi. No times or numbers.
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post #9 of 81 Old 07-31-2013, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 89blkmustang View Post
I don't fully understand the mega squirt deal. It completely replaces the EEC in my car. Is there any wiring that has to be done. It seems like better things come with the mega but idk to much about it anyone wanna help with what's all involved.

no everything is plug and play and you unhook the pcm and hook this one up in its place

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post #10 of 81 Old 08-01-2013, 09:33 AM
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I really like the functions of the moats and the price is kinda on my side yeah imma need 250 for the quarterhorse then 90 for binary and then 180 for wideband. Still way cheaper then the main part of mega without the goodies. But ill wai to hear anyone's input
Compared to $278 for mega (solder the components to the board yourself), $90 for adapter cable, and $180 for wideband, you're really only $28 cheaper keeping the factory ecu. I opted for megasquirt.

If you want one that is put together for you, or even beyond that one that is "plug and play", it is more expensive for that convenience.


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post #11 of 81 Old 08-01-2013, 10:02 AM
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I don't fully understand the mega squirt deal. It completely replaces the EEC in my car. Is there any wiring that has to be done. It seems like better things come with the mega but idk to much about it anyone wanna help with what's all involved.
There are a lot of different variations. Your budget could get a MS2 build it yourself kit and adapter cable, or a DIYPNP, if you don't want to do any rewiring. There are also wire in variants.

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post #12 of 81 Old 08-01-2013, 12:07 PM
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Like moats and binary
Got my vote!

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post #13 of 81 Old 08-01-2013, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 89blkmustang View Post
Hello,
I'm posting to ask a few questions about tuning software. I don't want some insane kind. I know there's like kits or systems out there around 4 to 5 hundred dollars. Where u are able to custom tune. I want it because ill have it and if I make any changes to my set up I can do it myself. But doing this will I still need my maf recalibrated been reading a lot and recal is a bad idea. I mean recalibrating the maf plus the tune is 4 to 500 so why not be able to change the things you want. Any one have any good reliable systems.
I thought the same thing as you when it was time to get my mustang tuned. Most good tuners out there chagre atleast $500 to get a tun on your ride. I figured for that price i could buy the chip and software and do it myself. WRONG! There is way to much stuff to lear to even begain to tune. I went out and bought a Quaterhorse, BE, EA and a Dell lap top. I spent about $750 for everything. I didnt think that was too bad. WHen tuning time came all the friends that were going to help out, became grass in the winter time. I tried to learn some tuning basics on EECtuning.org but still the car was never right. Finally a great guy from Burnt Hills helped me get a tune on the car only to be dissapointed in the end. The car really ripped but the tune was not spot on. SOme driveability issues made me get frustrated. I would suggest buying the same as i did but first make sure you have the resources to help you with the data and tune. There is just too may things to #### up IMO.
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post #14 of 81 Old 08-01-2013, 05:07 PM
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I thought the same thing as you when it was time to get my mustang tuned. Most good tuners out there chagre atleast $500 to get a tun on your ride. I figured for that price i could buy the chip and software and do it myself. WRONG! There is way to much stuff to lear to even begain to tune. I went out and bought a Quaterhorse, BE, EA and a Dell lap top. I spent about $750 for everything. I didnt think that was too bad. WHen tuning time came all the friends that were going to help out, became grass in the winter time. I tried to learn some tuning basics on EECtuning.org but still the car was never right. Finally a great guy from Burnt Hills helped me get a tune on the car only to be dissapointed in the end. The car really ripped but the tune was not spot on. SOme driveability issues made me get frustrated. I would suggest buying the same as i did but first make sure you have the resources to help you with the data and tune. There is just too may things to #### up IMO.
Simple advice to not end up frustrated as this; legitimately sit down and learn as much as you can prior to even making your purchase, it will seem like gibberish until you get your hands on it. THEN, take it step-by-step on your tuning. Don't go overboard and think you can do everything all at once. Tune as you go, you'll learn more, and more, and your tune will be constantly evolving. If you try to look at everything all at once, and every variable there is for you to mess with you WILL become overwhelmed, if you take it little by little, it's really not hard at all. If you do become overwhelmed, sit back, do some more homework, and start from scratch, that's the beauty of it!

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post #15 of 81 Old 08-03-2013, 07:57 PM
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I'm tuning with MS and understand how easy it is to get a little frustrated at times. When you take it easy, slow, and READ READ READ before you start, you can do alright in just a few sessions. There are so many resources out there for every different tuning option. The more you know, the easier it will be to choose which way you wanna go. Seijirou is a virtual wizard and wealth of knowledge.
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post #16 of 81 Old 08-13-2013, 12:28 PM
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I run a PNP (micro squirt) with Tuner studio software, it is without a doubt the easiest tuning software out there. All you do is plug it in, hook up the wideband, load a base tune, adjust a few basic settings, and start tuning. Once you get the car to a point it will run and drive, set it on autotune and just drive it around under different conditions. A few manual tweeks to the fuel map after that and your done. I got mine from Stinger performance, they have a tech forum on tuning them and the customer support from them is great. $700 with the Tuner studio software and you will never need to pay someone to tune you car again, plus you can tune it by yourself.
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post #17 of 81 Old 08-17-2013, 11:00 AM
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89blkmustang, if you're in Hagerstown Maryland, I'd be happy to meet up with you at a cruise in or something somewhere and kind of give you a megasquirt tour.

I can't compare it to QH+BE because I've never used them, but at least you'd be able to see my install, see how MS works, and what you can do with tunerstudio, and maybe I can answer some questions you have. It definitely helps to be able to see things.

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post #18 of 81 Old 08-24-2013, 03:14 PM
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What would be good is a good tuners guide that is user friendly. I have the moates and BE and I have a background in electronics and the eec website still made my head hurt. I asked for a good guide and was told to just start reading the front page. I don't have time to waste. The folks on the site are the same one we are buying this stuff from. I am just glad I got a baseline tune or I would be no where.

As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.

94 GT
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post #19 of 81 Old 08-26-2013, 09:38 AM
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As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.
Maybe you should find someone like me, who will remotely tune your car for you... all the while showing you what was changed, why it was changed, and how the changes effect the way the car runs.

You basically part with less than $200 to have someone tune your car for you, and teach you how to use the software at the same time.
post #20 of 81 Old 08-26-2013, 02:46 PM
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Maybe you should find someone like me, who will remotely tune your car for you... all the while showing you what was changed, why it was changed, and how the changes effect the way the car runs.

You basically part with less than $200 to have someone tune your car for you, and teach you how to use the software at the same time.
64 Can you help me tune my set up for me when I get rid of this backfiring issue I am having now?

I sent you a PM message earlier

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post #21 of 81 Old 08-26-2013, 03:35 PM
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Maybe you should find someone like me, who will remotely tune your car for you... all the while showing you what was changed, why it was changed, and how the changes effect the way the car runs.

You basically part with less than $200 to have someone tune your car for you, and teach you how to use the software at the same time.
Might just do that. I have a basic tune on it right now. I believe I know what the problem is, but until I get a wideband and datalog. I'm just guessing. I may be able to get a wb in the next week or so. This car and this build has been one of the most frustrating builds I have been a part of. I might give you a call in the next month or so. A good basic tuning guide would be terrific.

94 GT
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post #22 of 81 Old 08-26-2013, 04:51 PM
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64 Can you help me tune my set up for me when I get rid of this backfiring issue I am having now?

I sent you a PM message earlier
I can indeed. I'm on my way home from vacation. You and four others are waiting for responses. Be patient. I'll make it worth while.
post #23 of 81 Old 08-27-2013, 05:13 PM
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I can indeed. I'm on my way home from vacation. You and four others are waiting for responses. Be patient. I'll make it worth while.
If you pass through NC on your way home. Drop a line.

94 GT
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post #24 of 81 Old 08-27-2013, 06:00 PM
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If you pass through NC on your way home. Drop a line.
Sadly no. I was traveling through New England.

Do you have a thread started on your issue? Something maybe I could put some advice into.
post #25 of 81 Old 08-27-2013, 10:37 PM
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What would be good is a good tuners guide that is user friendly. I have the moates and BE and I have a background in electronics and the eec website still made my head hurt. I asked for a good guide and was told to just start reading the front page. I don't have time to waste. The folks on the site are the same one we are buying this stuff from. I am just glad I got a baseline tune or I would be no where.

As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.
I agree that the information available is less than great, but there is a lot out there if you look for it. I know you don't want to waste time learning a bunch of stuff that is useless. My advice would be to focus on the simplest things that you know you need to change and leave everything else stock ... everything ... until you need to change it.

What do you need to change? Whatever pertains to the physical modifications you made from stock. If you swapped the injectors, swap the injector values in the tune and leave everything else alone. If your injectors are well-supported and have known tuning values, you don't even really need a wideband. If you swapped the MAF, swap the MAF values and leave everything else alone. (You can even adjust MAF values for without a wideband if you plan it out carefully.) If you added boost, change the fueling and spark tables (and maybe load scalars) and leave everything else alone.

You don't even really need a baseline tune to start tuning with a QH, since you can read the stock tune off the EEC. If you just start poking around the stock tune and reading the descriptions of various functions and scalars, you will learn a lot.
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post #26 of 81 Old 08-29-2013, 02:37 PM
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What would be good is a good tuners guide that is user friendly. I have the moates and BE and I have a background in electronics and the eec website still made my head hurt. I asked for a good guide and was told to just start reading the front page. I don't have time to waste. The folks on the site are the same one we are buying this stuff from. I am just glad I got a baseline tune or I would be no where.

As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.
Binary Editor; Moates QuarterHorse Tuning Guide
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post #27 of 81 Old 09-01-2013, 01:14 PM
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Read that it didn't do jack for me. I have a back ground in electronics I am in short a broadcast engineer for the Army so electronics are not unfamiliar.

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post #28 of 81 Old 09-01-2013, 01:25 PM
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I agree that the information available is less than great, but there is a lot out there if you look for it. I know you don't want to waste time learning a bunch of stuff that is useless. My advice would be to focus on the simplest things that you know you need to change and leave everything else stock ... everything ... until you need to change it.

What do you need to change? Whatever pertains to the physical modifications you made from stock. If you swapped the injectors, swap the injector values in the tune and leave everything else alone. If your injectors are well-supported and have known tuning values, you don't even really need a wideband. If you swapped the MAF, swap the MAF values and leave everything else alone. (You can even adjust MAF values for without a wideband if you plan it out carefully.) If you added boost, change the fueling and spark tables (and maybe load scalars) and leave everything else alone.

You don't even really need a baseline tune to start tuning with a QH, since you can read the stock tune off the EEC. If you just start poking around the stock tune and reading the descriptions of various functions and scalars, you will learn a lot.
I just flat out don't have the time for this, I'm 39 years young, have two kids and I am heavily involved in their lives. I do not have time to learn 200 plus pid definitions and what they do. By the time you register BE 2012, get the moates chip with a base tune, and a good quality wideband installed you can go get a quality dyno tune and be out less time for the same if not less money. A blind tune is a blind tune no matter who does it, dialing it in on the phone you just hope to get someone who is familiar with your set up.

94 GT
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post #29 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 10:50 AM
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I do not have time to learn 200 plus pid definitions and what they do.
My point was that you probably only need to change like 10 of those parameters anyway.

Do whatever works for you. There's not one right answer.
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post #30 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 11:14 AM
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My point was that you probably only need to change like 10 of those parameters anyway.

Do whatever works for you. There's not one right answer.
Which ones and by how much? That's just it , there is a right answer out there somewhere and with what I have spent it shouldn't be held hostage.

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post #31 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 02:21 PM
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Which ones and by how much? That's just it , there is a right answer out there somewhere and with what I have spent it shouldn't be held hostage.
I have read through a number of your old posts from the last 18 months. It sounds like you have had a whole bunch of problems that were completely unrelated to tuning. I am still not sure you are at the point where you can start tuning.

- Did you make any modifications while installing the 410? Delete any emissions equipment?
- Did you ever figure out why your positive battery cable was getting hot?
- Have you checked for vacuum leaks?
- Have you checked the timing while running / idling (with SPOUT in)?
- Have you taken any datalogs? Have you shared them with anyone?

What I would advise you to do is to install stock injectors, stock MAF, and stock throttle body, and make the car run well. Do not drive it hard at this point. Just get the car running right. If you can't do that, stop and fix what's wrong.

Then modify one thing at a time. That way, you don't need to change more than 3 or 4 parameters at a time.

You don't need a wideband O2 sensor to get your car idling right. Save your wideband money until you know you can take advantage of it.
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post #32 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 02:37 PM
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I have read through a number of your old posts from the last 18 months. It sounds like you have had a whole bunch of problems that were completely unrelated to tuning. I am still not sure you are at the point where you can start tuning.

- Did you make any modifications while installing the 410? Delete any emissions equipment?
- Did you ever figure out why your positive battery cable was getting hot?
- Have you checked for vacuum leaks?
- Have you checked the timing while running / idling (with SPOUT in)?
- Have you taken any datalogs? Have you shared them with anyone?

What I would advise you to do is to install stock injectors, stock MAF, and stock throttle body, and make the car run well. Do not drive it hard at this point. Just get the car running right. If you can't do that, stop and fix what's wrong.

Then modify one thing at a time. That way, you don't need to change more than 3 or 4 parameters at a time.

You don't need a wideband O2 sensor to get your car idling right. Save your wideband money until you know you can take advantage of it.
The car hasn't had emissions on it in years.
Hot battery cable cleared up after redoing several grounds and getting a fresh battery in it and maintaining it with a battery tender
Havent picked up on any vacuum leaks
Timing has been checked and verified multiple times
No datalogs I don't know how to use them or what I looking for

I haven't had the stock pieces in years, I went back and bought a factory maf but it made no difference so I turned around and resold it.

I know this sounds bad but should I really have to go back and buy stock pieces and parts to figure this out? To fix something that should have been addressed in the initial tune.

With that being said all hardware is being shipped back as I speak and I will be awaiting for a partial refund.

94 GT
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post #33 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 03:30 PM
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The car hasn't had emissions on it in years.
Hot battery cable cleared up after redoing several grounds and getting a fresh battery in it and maintaining it with a battery tender
Ok, that's good. I would also test for current drain while the car is off. Those problems can be hard to find. Things like an electrically leaky diode in the alternator can drain your battery and cause problems while running as well.

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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
Havent picked up on any vacuum leaks
I would test (with a vacuum pump, smoke machine, or the propane method) before assuming they aren't there. The car has been modified and hasn't run right for a long time, so it may be hard to observe vacuum leaks from the way it runs.

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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
Timing has been checked and verified multiple times
You aren't saying what the timing was. I know you said you set base timing to 10 degrees BTDC. But what timing was being commanded by the EEC? Especially at the times when the car was running badly?

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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
No datalogs I don't know how to use them or what I looking for
Basically, you should datalog the voltage readings from the MAF, TPS, ECT, ACT, MAP, left O2, and right O2 sensors, and also log the reference B+ voltage, and also the measured RPM, the calculated load, the commanded timing, and maybe a couple of other things. You could have focused on the times when the car ran badly and seen what the computer was seeing, and seen what it was commanding. You could have shown them to someone and asked for help.

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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
I haven't had the stock pieces in years, I went back and bought a factory maf but it made no difference so I turned around and resold it.
So you put on an un-verified MAF to diagnose a problem that may or may not be due to another un-verified MAF that may or may not work? That doesn't really prove much.

Besides which, depending on what the tuner changed in your tune, a stock MAF might not work with the larger injectors. So to be really sure your car is mechanically and electrically fine, you should have put on a known good stock MAF, stock injectors, and a stock tune. Conveniently, with the QH, you can revert to the stock tune anytime you want. Put a few stock parts back on, revert the tune to stock with the QH, and you would have a car that is close to stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
I know this sounds bad but should I really have to go back and buy stock pieces and parts to figure this out? To fix something that should have been addressed in the initial tune.
A tune can't fix mechanical and electrical problems. I'm not saying you definitely have them, but since you never took the time to rule them out, you can't know that you don't have them.

It should have cost you less than $100 to buy used MAF, throttle body, and injectors. I know $100 is still a lot of money, but look at it in the context of the time and money wasted spinning your wheels. You also could have kept those parts until you made sure everything worked, which would have been almost free.

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Originally Posted by melo yelo View Post
With that being said all hardware is being shipped back as I speak and I will be awaiting for a partial refund.
Ok. I hope you find something that works for you.
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post #34 of 81 Old 09-04-2013, 06:54 PM
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Ok, that's good. I would also test for current drain while the car is off. Those problems can be hard to find. Things like an electrically leaky diode in the alternator can drain your battery and cause problems while running as well.



I would test (with a vacuum pump, smoke machine, or the propane method) before assuming they aren't there. The car has been modified and hasn't run right for a long time, so it may be hard to observe vacuum leaks from the way it runs.



You aren't saying what the timing was. I know you said you set base timing to 10 degrees BTDC. But what timing was being commanded by the EEC? Especially at the times when the car was running badly?



Basically, you should datalog the voltage readings from the MAF, TPS, ECT, ACT, MAP, left O2, and right O2 sensors, and also log the reference B+ voltage, and also the measured RPM, the calculated load, the commanded timing, and maybe a couple of other things. You could have focused on the times when the car ran badly and seen what the computer was seeing, and seen what it was commanding. You could have shown them to someone and asked for help.



So you put on an un-verified MAF to diagnose a problem that may or may not be due to another un-verified MAF that may or may not work? That doesn't really prove much.

Besides which, depending on what the tuner changed in your tune, a stock MAF might not work with the larger injectors. So to be really sure your car is mechanically and electrically fine, you should have put on a known good stock MAF, stock injectors, and a stock tune. Conveniently, with the QH, you can revert to the stock tune anytime you want. Put a few stock parts back on, revert the tune to stock with the QH, and you would have a car that is close to stock.



A tune can't fix mechanical and electrical problems. I'm not saying you definitely have them, but since you never took the time to rule them out, you can't know that you don't have them.

It should have cost you less than $100 to buy used MAF, throttle body, and injectors. I know $100 is still a lot of money, but look at it in the context of the time and money wasted spinning your wheels. You also could have kept those parts until you made sure everything worked, which would have been almost free.



Ok. I hope you find something that works for you.
This hobby has for the last year or two has not been fun. For more reasons than just the tune. I'm going to take it to a local shop to get it tuned and if it has some mechanical issues I will have them addressed. I'm going to try to get this back to an enjoyable level and if it doesn't get to that level in the next couple of months. I'll just sell it and find a car that is fun.

94 GT
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post #35 of 81 Old 09-05-2013, 06:32 PM
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Word... I can't have this have this happen on my project.
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