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Tuning software

9K views 80 replies 23 participants last post by  fox88 
#1 ·
Hello,
I'm posting to ask a few questions about tuning software. I don't want some insane kind. I know there's like kits or systems out there around 4 to 5 hundred dollars. Where u are able to custom tune. I want it because ill have it and if I make any changes to my set up I can do it myself. But doing this will I still need my maf recalibrated been reading a lot and recal is a bad idea. I mean recalibrating the maf plus the tune is 4 to 500 so why not be able to change the things you want. Any one have any good reliable systems.
 
#3 ·
I read a little actual a few hours of stuff alot to learn but I'm ready. I don't know exactly what I need to purchase for my needs if anyone has this setup. Plz let me know what your goals were and what u purchased so I have a better idea of what I need. And if I provide my goals maybe u can lead me in a direction..
 
#4 ·
Also check out megasquirt from diyauto. Software is easy to learn and doesn't use a maf. It is all plug and play or you can build your own. Has a self tune feature you can upgrade to which will get you cruising in no time if you install a wideband. It has a full list of features that are normally found in systems 2-3 times the price. Data logs, two step, flat shift, nos control , boost control, and many many more.

What you need
Laptop with serial port or serial to USb adaptor.
Wideband
Mspnp2 runs 839
Lc1 wideband under 200
Cheap dell d630/d620 100
Tuner studio is free upgrade for self running is 40 or 50



Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#5 ·
I recently purchased my car and it had a Moates F3 chip in it. I was planning a head/cam swap and a tuner helped me out by swapping the F3 tune to a Quarterhorse. He disappeared on me after the swap, but Decipha from EECtuning.org helped me out. That is a good site to get info you need.

Short answer, if you go with a Moates Quarterhorse and BE, you can tune yourself and make adjustments as needed.
 
#7 ·
I don't fully understand the mega squirt deal. It completely replaces the EEC in my car. Is there any wiring that has to be done. It seems like better things come with the mega but idk to much about it anyone wanna help with what's all involved.
 
#8 ·
I really like the functions of the moats and the price is kinda on my side yeah imma need 250 for the quarterhorse then 90 for binary and then 180 for wideband. Still way cheaper then the main part of mega without the goodies. But ill wai to hear anyone's input
 
#10 ·
Compared to $278 for mega (solder the components to the board yourself), $90 for adapter cable, and $180 for wideband, you're really only $28 cheaper keeping the factory ecu. I opted for megasquirt.

If you want one that is put together for you, or even beyond that one that is "plug and play", it is more expensive for that convenience.
 
#13 ·
I thought the same thing as you when it was time to get my mustang tuned. Most good tuners out there chagre atleast $500 to get a tun on your ride. I figured for that price i could buy the chip and software and do it myself. WRONG! There is way to much stuff to lear to even begain to tune. I went out and bought a Quaterhorse, BE, EA and a Dell lap top. I spent about $750 for everything. I didnt think that was too bad. WHen tuning time came all the friends that were going to help out, became grass in the winter time. I tried to learn some tuning basics on EECtuning.org but still the car was never right. Finally a great guy from Burnt Hills helped me get a tune on the car only to be dissapointed in the end. The car really ripped but the tune was not spot on. SOme driveability issues made me get frustrated. I would suggest buying the same as i did but first make sure you have the resources to help you with the data and tune. There is just too may things to #### up IMO.
 
#14 ·
Simple advice to not end up frustrated as this; legitimately sit down and learn as much as you can prior to even making your purchase, it will seem like gibberish until you get your hands on it. THEN, take it step-by-step on your tuning. Don't go overboard and think you can do everything all at once. Tune as you go, you'll learn more, and more, and your tune will be constantly evolving. If you try to look at everything all at once, and every variable there is for you to mess with you WILL become overwhelmed, if you take it little by little, it's really not hard at all. If you do become overwhelmed, sit back, do some more homework, and start from scratch, that's the beauty of it!
 
#15 ·
I'm tuning with MS and understand how easy it is to get a little frustrated at times. When you take it easy, slow, and READ READ READ before you start, you can do alright in just a few sessions. There are so many resources out there for every different tuning option. The more you know, the easier it will be to choose which way you wanna go. Seijirou is a virtual wizard and wealth of knowledge.
 
#16 ·
I run a PNP (micro squirt) with Tuner studio software, it is without a doubt the easiest tuning software out there. All you do is plug it in, hook up the wideband, load a base tune, adjust a few basic settings, and start tuning. Once you get the car to a point it will run and drive, set it on autotune and just drive it around under different conditions. A few manual tweeks to the fuel map after that and your done. I got mine from Stinger performance, they have a tech forum on tuning them and the customer support from them is great. $700 with the Tuner studio software and you will never need to pay someone to tune you car again, plus you can tune it by yourself.
 
#17 ·
89blkmustang, if you're in Hagerstown Maryland, I'd be happy to meet up with you at a cruise in or something somewhere and kind of give you a megasquirt tour.

I can't compare it to QH+BE because I've never used them, but at least you'd be able to see my install, see how MS works, and what you can do with tunerstudio, and maybe I can answer some questions you have. It definitely helps to be able to see things.
 
#18 ·
What would be good is a good tuners guide that is user friendly. I have the moates and BE and I have a background in electronics and the eec website still made my head hurt. I asked for a good guide and was told to just start reading the front page. I don't have time to waste. The folks on the site are the same one we are buying this stuff from. I am just glad I got a baseline tune or I would be no where.

As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.
 
#19 ·
As in everything car related nobody tells you these things,
Hey man you needs a moates chip
then oh by the way you need to get BE 2012 flavor of the week
oh and don't forget your wideband
and last but not least, hey when this stuff doesn't work just read and memorize the site.

Yea my car runs for half and hour then shuts down, effin a I'm lovin it.
Maybe you should find someone like me, who will remotely tune your car for you... all the while showing you what was changed, why it was changed, and how the changes effect the way the car runs.

You basically part with less than $200 to have someone tune your car for you, and teach you how to use the software at the same time.
 
#22 ·
64 Can you help me tune my set up for me when I get rid of this backfiring issue I am having now?

I sent you a PM message earlier
I can indeed. I'm on my way home from vacation. You and four others are waiting for responses. Be patient. I'll make it worth while.
 
#37 ·
I'm not surprised at all. That's why I hate tuning with calibrated maf sensors
 
#38 ·
What do start with? Factory maf un-calibrated installed in a large meter? With fuel injectors large enough to supply your power output?
I have a pile of parts and a few bucks to spend. I wanna get a qh and tune from you 64bit.
Did Melo buy a tune/support? Like I said I have $ to spend but I can't have results like Melo describes spending more and more and the car runs better unmodified, I have other projects I have to have to certain on how to delegate the $ to get them up and going.
 
#39 ·
The biggest reason i prefer not to use "calibrated" maf's is that there are too many chances that the parts don't work well together.

Knowing the actual flow rates of the parts is key to getting the tune perfect, but more often than not, I have used the supplied flow charts, and still had to build my own MAF transfer anyway. Every car that I have tuned using a Ford Maf, has been a dream to tune. Im working with a guy right now with a FRPP 427 crate. Aside from not having the MAF he told me he had, and now running into mechanical issues... His tuning has been going VERY smooth. We're on his 4th revision and he is able to drive the car with relative ease. We have been able to get his injector settings pretty much spot on with just a few datalogs.

Before this car, I have never tuned a car with 47lb injectors. I would have preferred he use 42#ers for ease, but it's not an impossible task.

Melo did not buy his tune from me, and I cannot attest for the correspondence between himself and Willie at Dirty Dirty. I however always instruct people to use a wideband with their QH. Especially when using parts that I do not have first had experience with. The biggest mistake that people make is buying EVERY part for their build, then contacting a tuner. IMHO, you should never buy fuel system related parts without consulting a tuner first.

There is no magic that goes into tuning these cars. but if you expect your car to run right, you need to be willing to put some effort into the process as well. You can't just sit on your ass and expect us to play voodoo with the ECM gods.


My recommendations when it comes to tuning... Buy a $249 quarterhorse. Buy Binary Editor for $90-$100, and get a wideband. I do realize this is a bit of money and you can spend just as much if not slightly cheaper on a dyno tune. The benefit of spending a little extra is the support you get from the tuner. Have a stalling issue that bothers you? datalog it! Think the car is running too rich? Datalog it!


I honestly think Melo over-reacted about his tuning problems. His issues could very well be mechanical and not tune related, but without ALL of the information, we can't come to any real conclusions. I also know that there is no tuner out there who knows 100% of everything. Could I have fixed something that Willie missed in his tune? maybe, idk. Do I know everything... not even close. But I damn well try my best to make sure everyone is happy.
 
#41 ·
One day, I'll be buying the sailorbob strategy. The biggest issue I have is that since I do this tuning as a hobby and not a primary business venture, I cant currently justify buying BE2012 and a new version of EA. My QH is a v1.4 and I still rock BE2009. It works fine for me, and I can tune with it just fine. Not having the sailorbob strategy has cost me a few customers, because i just plain don't have access to it.
 
#42 ·
I don't really want to get into this situation any more than I already have, but I was asked to relay one piece of information.

Willie at dirtydirtyracing was in contact with me and said that the tune file on melo yelo's QH was corrupted. So in his opinion, that was the source of the issues. With no wideband on the car, there was no easy way to verify the air-fuel results.

Please don't ask me to elaborate, as I don't know anything more than that.

I guess Willie has been banned, so can't comment on it himself?
 
#45 · (Edited)
Please by no means I'm not posting any wrong or right, there is a lot of valid information composed here. With Binary Editor software and a Quarterhorse or existing TwEECer users with wideband you do have all the tools to make a proper calibration complete! We don't really have any problems with a pre-calibrated meter as long Pro-M or PMAS has done there job correctly, with current success there meters and data logging is constant to see everything working monitoring fuel trims and voltage making sure meter is functioning correctly.

For beginners I link Decipha site teaching important variables and working, respectfully I am a certified tuner of 15 years there is a lot of valid information I do agree with his write up! GUF car specific, take sometime to understand tuning in general this will help any beginner and understanding the basics. Good Luck.
 
#46 ·
I'm an EE who actually designed ignition and ignition test systems and instrumentation. I current do OEM designs for manufacturers, but it is mostly analog or RF equipment. I lay things out from the component level. I'm deep into electromagnetics and other abstract areas.

Reading threads, I can tell you why people trying to start tuning are frustrated. There are no well-written walk-through tuning guides out there, and some of the programs have errors or conflicting information.

A person can listen to two tuners, and they will each disagree with each other. Also, with two different tuning programs, the SAME tables or functions have different X and Y scale values, and do not convert.

Some things are silly. Fuel cutoff, for example, is the safest way to limit an engine. (I designed some of the first electronic RPM limit systems.) Ignition cutoff lets a burnable A-F mixture into the cylinder and exhaust where it can cause problems. It had to be done with carburetors, there was no other way. Fuel cutoff, when it is either on normal or off total, only let's a good mixture or NO fuel and all air into the cylinder. The cylinder cannot go lean, because it cannot fire. All it passes is slightly warmed air out to the exhaust. It can't wash down the walls, and it can't load the exhaust with unburned explosive mixture that ignites downstream. Yet some people say tuning sources say fuel cutoff makes the engine lean and is unsafe, and tell people to use a less safe method (1970's carb technology ignition cutoff).

This is why people pull their hair out and wish they never started with EFI.

I'm dealing with a conflict between tuners right now. One person says to scale (or nomalize) because the MAF can't be calculated over 2200 kg/h or so, and other of some authority is telling me that is not the case. How can I resolve who is right?

This is why people get frustrated. I don't want someone else to tune my car, I want to learn how stuff really works myself. I don't want to be an appliance operator.

Tom
 
#47 ·
A person can listen to two tuners, and they will each disagree with each other. Also, with two different tuning programs, the SAME tables or functions have different X and Y scale values, and do not convert.

...

I'm dealing with a conflict between tuners right now. One person says to scale (or nomalize) because the MAF can't be calculated over 2200 kg/h or so, and other of some authority is telling me that is not the case. How can I resolve who is right?
Different EEC years and models have different limitations. Perhaps one person is confused as to what year processor you have.

I would say, is your MAF count approaching 2200 kg/hr? (If so, good for you ... that's over 1000 cfm!) If not, don't worry about it. If so, make a run and watch your wideband. If your measured A/F ratio starts to drift lean when MAF count exceeds 2200 kg/hr, then you know there is some truth to it.

Another thing to consider is that different values may coincide, such as high MAF count and high LOAD value, and it may not be obvious which is the actual limiting factor.
 
#53 ·
I still am not believing it all is some sinister way to retain information.

I think a few people are like that, but most hobbyists like to share and help each other.

I think it is a matter of how people communicate based on how they picture things in their heads, and that much of what is written is really just assumptions or lacks peer input or feedback.

The end result is it is pretty frustrating when trying to actually learn what goes on.

For example?

There are two ways WOT is described. One says it is simply 2.71 volts from the TPS (with stock tune) and the other says it is 2.71 plus idle voltage.

There are at least two ways back flow clip is described in software I have. One expresses it in kg/hr with numbers like .0037, and the other says lbs/ intake*1000 with numbers like 3.7 or so. Which is correct? A kilogram is 2.2 lbs. They can't both be right.

Things like this are all through the stuff. I can make my car run and make power, but I can't find many things that universally agree and let me get the driveability where it really should be.
 
#55 ·
Excellent link to the Ford document on the different GUxx strategies.

I think the complexity you see in that document is a large part of why this isn't clear.

Another thing to consider is that Ford hasn't provided any help to most of the customizers who have made EEC tuning possible. There's nothing in it for them.

So figuring out how some of the strategies work has been difficult, especially for the rarer ones. Even if you know how the strategy works and what functions (variables) you want to change, you still have to figure out where those functions are stored and in what format. This may involve a lot of decompiling and even eyeball review of code. In the example of Binary Editor tuning, all of this hard unpaid work comes together to form the definition file. That file is a key to translate the interior structure of the EEC into something that Binary Editor can modify and update.

What you can infer from that is that what you see on the front end is not necessarily what the engineers at Ford put in. For the front end to be perfect, the decompiling and translation has to be perfect. Things like a typo in the documentation (kg/hr versus lbs/hr) can be confusing, but it's hard to avoid them entirely. People make mistakes.
 
#56 · (Edited)
So figuring out how some of the strategies work has been difficult, especially for the rarer ones. Even if you know how the strategy works and what functions (variables) you want to change, you still have to figure out where those functions are stored and in what format. This may involve a lot of decompiling and even eyeball review of code. In the example of Binary Editor tuning, all of this hard unpaid work comes together to form the definition file. That file is a key to translate the interior structure of the EEC into something that Binary Editor can modify and update.

I have BE and CalEdit. But what I'd like to have is something with a flow chart that shows me how things interact and what the limits are.

That would make tuning anything easy.

It isn't like the GUxx stuff is rare, or there are hardly any Fox Mustangs with EEC IV's out there. :)

What you can infer from that is that what you see on the front end is not necessarily what the engineers at Ford put in. For the front end to be perfect, the decompiling and translation has to be perfect. Things like a typo in the documentation (kg/hr versus lbs/hr) can be confusing, but it's hard to avoid them entirely.
That is more than a typo. The numbers are 4 places off. 3.9 vs .0039

That's 10,000 times. So how is that data processed that something so far off works?

People make mistakes.
That is why open dialog and information exchange is critical, if we are to get smarter as a group. It seems like we have people going off alone who reach different conclusions.

Probably this is because it is a limited time and market hobby.

The important thing is how can we make it better for everyone so people do not get confused or frustrated..
 
#59 ·
This thread makes my head hurt...

I'm ready to install my Cam.. . I was planning on getting a QH with base tune from Willy.. Is there someone else I should consider?

My Combo should be pretty simple..
Stock GT40 Longblock..
ECU friendly Crane 2031
SCT-BA3000
FRPP 47# Injectors
Tmoss Ported GT40
Vortech Si @ 12#
Snow Stg II Meth
MSD BTM
 
#60 · (Edited)
If you are not going to change things all the time, or don't want to learn, do that.

Personally, I'm glad I got a Tweecer RT. It isn't that difficult to make it work UNLESS you make huge changes like I did. With large changes, if you want things perfect or understand what you are doing, it takes significant time learning! The problems I run into is because of the large air demand and range of things caused by the supercharger. With modest changes it is easy.

You might take a while to get things right on your own, since we have somewhat similar setups.
 
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