Pump gas to e85 tune changes - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 Old 06-03-2013, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
1hcam's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oviedo FL
Posts: 132
Pump gas to e85 tune changes

I'm switching from pump gas to e85. My wb and afr tables are still displaying Afr for gas. What's going to be my best plan of attack? Can I get away with just changing the stoich setting in TS to 9.76 and and target roughly the same afr's or leave TS stoich settings at 14.7 and just target an afr of 8.6-9.9 for idle and cruise and a 7.6 under boost/wot compared to pump gas I ran an afr of 13-15 idle and cruise and 11.5 at wot/boost.

1hcam is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 Old 06-03-2013, 09:23 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (41)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,469
I would just leave you wb and target tables set for gas and shoot for the same a/f targets.


New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
stangjumper is offline  
post #3 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
1hcam's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oviedo FL
Posts: 132
That's what wound up doing. Took it out last night for about 15-20 min to work the tune a little. Ill probably work on it some more this week and go to the track this weekend to work on it some more.
1hcam is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 01:15 PM
Corral Elite Member
 
wytwolf's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CA, OR, WA
Posts: 797
You have to tune for the fuel you're using. You COULD use gas AFRs, but I don't think the result will be very good. Do it right.
wytwolf is offline  
post #5 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 05:23 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (41)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by wytwolf View Post
You have to tune for the fuel you're using. You COULD use gas AFRs, but I don't think the result will be very good. Do it right.
Could you explain why you don't "think" the result will be very good?

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
stangjumper is offline  
post #6 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 05:59 PM
Corral Elite Member
 
wytwolf's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CA, OR, WA
Posts: 797
The term Stoichiometric ratio describes the chemically correct air-fuel ratio necessary to achieve complete combustion of the fuel. It is represented by the Greek letter, lambda.

For gasoline fuel, or petrol, the value of the ratio is 14.7 parts of air, to 1 part of fuel. By mass, that's 14.7 kilograms or pounds of air to each kilogram or pound of fuel. So if lambda equals 1, the air-fuel mixture is at the Stoichiometric ratio, of 14.7 to 1.

If an air-fuel mixture has a higher figure, say, 1.03, there is more air in proportion to the fuel than 14.7 to 1, and the mixture is slightly lean.

A mixture with a lower lambda value, say 0.97, has proportionately less air than fuel, and the mixture is slightly rich.

The exhaust gas oxygen sensor is also called the lambda sensor, since it can be used to maintain the air-fuel ratio at lambda equal to 1, within very close limits. It can be installed in the exhaust manifold, where it measures the percentage of oxygen in the exhaust gases.

A high percentage of oxygen may mean too little fuel is entering the engine, the mixture is too lean, and lambda is greater than 1. The sensor delivers this information to the ECU, which adjusts the mixture accordingly.

Similarly, a low percentage of oxygen may indicate too much fuel is entering the engine, the mixture is too rich, and lambda is less than 1.

Different fuels have a different Stoichiometric ratio. For instance, with Methanol the air-to-fuel ration is 6.4:1, and with Ethanol it is 9:1.

Targeting the same AFR's for 2 different fuels doesn't make any sense! That's why I "THINK" the way I do.
If it were all the same, why would you specify fuel type on your WB and in TS?
wytwolf is offline  
post #7 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 07:20 PM
Registered User
 
goatnipples2002's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (22)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Bellevue, Ne.
Posts: 2,287
an air fuel gauge is just that. It is not for gas only. 12.5 is 12.5. rich is rich and lean is lean. Tune it just like its gas. Don't believe me just search. THINK all u want. I KNOW!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
www.cleanfeetpetcleanup.com/cats
goatnipples2002 is offline  
post #8 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 07:47 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
1hcam's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oviedo FL
Posts: 132
I found this scale on a yellowbullet thread from a while ago. What do you think of the afr scale on post #13?

I guess it would help if I posted the link.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=283787

Last edited by 1hcam; 06-04-2013 at 07:57 PM.
1hcam is offline  
post #9 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 09:54 PM
Registered User
 
blownholley50's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (28)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Odessa, TX
Posts: 1,113
I run on gas scale w e85. But u have to show the computer u are using 30-40% less injector and then u can use ur same tables and af. I have 160# injectors. Got my fast thinking/enter as 96# injectors. That's 40% more fuel!!

WestTexasMeanStreet-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
93 LX Hatch F1A-94 ,363, Freezy, XFI-/[email protected]/[email protected] 5000'DA
Harlow Sammons,Southwest Perf. & Machine
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
YouTube Page- www.youtube.com/user/blownholley50
blownholley50 is offline  
post #10 of 16 Old 06-04-2013, 09:57 PM
Registered User
 
blownholley50's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (28)
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Odessa, TX
Posts: 1,113
If u don't change the injector like that it. U would have to add 30-50% more to ur fuel table and more than likely u will max ir table out and still be lean!! I did 40% on injectors and added 10% fuel to fuel table. So it took 50% more fuel over c16 to read right/same on gas scale!


WestTexasMeanStreet-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
93 LX Hatch F1A-94 ,363, Freezy, XFI-/[email protected]/[email protected] 5000'DA
Harlow Sammons,Southwest Perf. & Machine
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
YouTube Page- www.youtube.com/user/blownholley50
blownholley50 is offline  
post #11 of 16 Old 06-05-2013, 12:49 AM
Corral Elite Member
 
wytwolf's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CA, OR, WA
Posts: 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by goatnipples2002 View Post
an air fuel gauge is just that. It is not for gas only. 12.5 is 12.5. rich is rich and lean is lean. Tune it just like its gas. Don't believe me just search. THINK all u want. I KNOW!
Yes, the gauge is going to reflect AFR no matter what fuel. What I'm saying is if you are tuning a gas motor, your AFR range is most likely to fall in the 11-20 area. Now, if you're tuning with E85, you're looking at what?, 6-14?

OP, make sure your target AFRs are in the right range and you'll be fine.
wytwolf is offline  
post #12 of 16 Old 06-08-2013, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
1hcam's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oviedo FL
Posts: 132
So I wound up just targeting 11.5 on the gas scale. Working like a champ so far. I went to the track last night to work on the tune up. I wasn't able to cool it off so I made a couple passes heat soaked and hotter than ussual, it was also humid as a mofo. Picked up almost 2 mph over my norm. I can't wait to go back and see what it'll do cooled. I still need to flatten out my afr's and play with the timing some but so far E85 FTW!!!
1hcam is offline  
post #13 of 16 Old 06-08-2013, 11:20 AM
Registered User
 
blown65's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: medford, oregon
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1hcam View Post
So I wound up just targeting 11.5 on the gas scale. Working like a champ so far. I went to the track last night to work on the tune up. I wasn't able to cool it off so I made a couple passes heat soaked and hotter than ussual, it was also humid as a mofo. Picked up almost 2 mph over my norm. I can't wait to go back and see what it'll do cooled. I still need to flatten out my afr's and play with the timing some but so far E85 FTW!!!
You might find that on e85 it will actually like more motor heat. We have hot lapped a few times a couple cars and both went faster the second pass which never happens on gas.

SBF 347
[email protected] N/A
[email protected] S480
youtube.com/watch?v=p7-UskslSGY
blown65 is offline  
post #14 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 12:40 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (41)
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 3,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by wytwolf View Post
Yes, the gauge is going to reflect AFR no matter what fuel. What I'm saying is if you are tuning a gas motor, your AFR range is most likely to fall in the 11-20 area. Now, if you're tuning with E85, you're looking at what?, 6-14?

OP, make sure your target AFRs are in the right range and you'll be fine.
If the a/f display was programmed to display lambda it would display the lambda for any fuel. Most displays are programmed to display gasoline a/f, but it is based off the lambda reading. If you are looking for 1.0 lambda it would display 14.7 on a gasoline programmed display which would equal 9.77 a/f if the display was programmed for e85. If you were shooting for .76 lambda it would display 11.2 on a gasoline programmed display or 7.44 on a e85 programmed display.

That's why you can use a gasoline programmed wb display while running e85 with no side affects. It all comes down to the lambda reading you are shooting for.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
stangjumper is offline  
post #15 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 12:48 PM
Registered User
 
blown65's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: medford, oregon
Posts: 457
Quote:
Originally Posted by stangjumper View Post
If the a/f display was programmed to display lambda it would display the lambda for any fuel. Most displays are programmed to display gasoline a/f, but it is based off the lambda reading. If you are looking for 1.0 lambda it would display 14.7 on a gasoline programmed display which would equal 9.77 a/f if the display was programmed for e85. If you were shooting for .76 lambda it would display 11.2 on a gasoline programmed display or 7.44 on a e85 programmed display.

That's why you can use a gasoline programmed wb display while running e85 with no side affects. It all comes down to the lambda reading you are shooting for.
Ya, most will just display the Gas scale on your wideband so use that chart if you want to see where your at on the lambda scale.

If you can change it, Id change to a lambda scale and get used to those numbers.

SBF 347
[email protected] N/A
[email protected] S480
youtube.com/watch?v=p7-UskslSGY
blown65 is offline  
post #16 of 16 Old 06-10-2013, 01:51 PM
Corral Elite Member
 
wytwolf's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CA, OR, WA
Posts: 797
Now that makes sense! By no means am I am expert, but thank you for explaining it in a way that makes sense.
wytwolf is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale 1996 Cobra Twin Turbo 800 hp pump gas freddy302 Mustangs For Sale/Wanted, 1994-1998 26 07-14-2015 11:45 AM
For Sale Complete pump gas 347 - look inside 95 Blk Cobra Windsor Engine Parts 2 10-18-2012 08:06 AM
When to tune on E85? Quick302Pony General Mustang Tech 5 09-21-2012 04:05 PM
1986 GT Fuel pump not priming 86bigred General Mustang Tech 7 11-03-2011 06:50 AM
Run e85 and no intercooler or pump gas 93 and a intercooler? turbonotchcoupe Turbochargers 34 04-07-2011 06:14 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome