98 RON or E85 - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-01-2013, 04:00 AM Thread Starter
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98 RON or E85

I'm at the point where I need to decide which fuel I will be tuning my car with. My 408 twin turbo is currently being built, CR will most likely be 8.8:1. Going for 800fwhp

I've worked out based 0.7 BSFC that I'll need 95lb injectors for 98 RON and approx 165lb for E85 . I bought 65lb one's accidentally so ill have to sell them. I have an A1000 pump which I know won't support E85.


I have asked around and have been told E85 is only good out of a drum and not from the browser. Apparently the ethanol blend is not controlled and you can get anywhere from 60-90% ethanol...
Meaning you can tune it on one tank, but you might melt a piston on the next...

Me being in Australia, do you guys have this same problem?

As its a street car, should I just tune with 98 RON??

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post #2 of 14 Old 05-02-2013, 09:28 AM
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Yeah the problem is that e85 is a descriptor of the blend, 98 RON is a descriptor of the octane rating.

If you can't get e85 as a controlled octane rating, or in a way where you can be sure the blend is the same every time, yeah tune on 98 RON. 98 RON will always be 98 RON regardless of the blend.


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post #3 of 14 Old 05-11-2013, 11:29 AM
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I would run e85 if it available to you. Are you efi or carb? If efi what system? You can install a flex fuel sensor and depending on your ecu it will automatically make fueling adjustments depending on ethanol content, that's what I did. Works great.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-12-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by stangjumper View Post
I would run e85 if it available to you. Are you efi or carb? If efi what system? You can install a flex fuel sensor and depending on your ecu it will automatically make fueling adjustments depending on ethanol content, that's what I did. Works great.
Fuel adjustments is one thing. If the blend has less ethanol, it also has a lower octane rating. In that case you need timing adjustments too to prevent detonation. That's possible to do but you gotta make sure your ecu supports it, and then knowing how much timing to pull according to ethanol % you'd need to figure out on a dyno.

That's the issue with e85, the 85% is more like a guideline, not a hard fast rule. However any fuel that advertises an octane rating, will be that octane rating (mistakes/errors not withstanding) regardless of the blend.

'94 GT, White, Cobra hood & bumper cover, '95R wheels
393w, Vic Jr 60cc, XE282HR, Victor 5.8 EFI, 80# injectors, Hooker LT 1 3/4 to 3", Borla proXS
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post #5 of 14 Old 05-12-2013, 11:16 AM
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they sell e85 test kits at summit racing buy a kit find a gas station that has a good blend and run that
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-12-2013, 11:21 AM
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that's a good idea.

'94 GT, White, Cobra hood & bumper cover, '95R wheels
393w, Vic Jr 60cc, XE282HR, Victor 5.8 EFI, 80# injectors, Hooker LT 1 3/4 to 3", Borla proXS
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-12-2013, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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But confirming blend and having confidence in the consistency don't go hand in hand.

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post #8 of 14 Old 05-13-2013, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
Fuel adjustments is one thing. If the blend has less ethanol, it also has a lower octane rating. In that case you need timing adjustments too to prevent detonation. That's possible to do but you gotta make sure your ecu supports it, and then knowing how much timing to pull according to ethanol % you'd need to figure out on a dyno.

That's the issue with e85, the 85% is more like a guideline, not a hard fast rule. However any fuel that advertises an octane rating, will be that octane rating (mistakes/errors not withstanding) regardless of the blend.
In my use of E85 over the last 4 1/2 years, my engine and everyone else that I know that runs it, does not have any issues when the ethanol content changes rom 85-70%. I do not alter the timing curve from only a 15% swing. From my use of it it is almost impossible to get detonation with it. It's cooling effect is unbelievable. My alt took a dump a few years back and my A/F was 15:1 at 15psi right up to 7500rpm's. The engine was down on power but it didn't break or damage anything, the engine is still running stron today untouched. My friend also ran 16:1 A/F down the 1/4 mile when his methanol kit didn't come on (running e85-the brake vac booster tank split in half) still running a low 9 sec pass with 18psi. He ran the engine for another 2 years untill he took it apart. The engine was perfect inside other than the cheap broken connecting rod and hole in the cylinder LOL. On my engine I can add 10* more timing across the map everywhere and it will still not detonate because of the E85. It doesn't make any more power with more timing so there is no need to run that much timing in my case.

From 70-85% is about 5% fueling difference. Any ECU running with WB correction will handle that no problem. A carb is a different story though.

IMO any ECU that is worth anything should be able to alter the fuel and/or timing curve depending on the ethanol content. I have the flex fuel sensor wired into my ECU and it changes the fueling of the injectors depending on the content to give me the desired A/F (I can richen/lean the target A/F mixture automatically in the ECU depending on content). I can also alter the timing and boost level (turbo). All without doing anything other than putting fuel in the tank.

I also run the Zeitronics flex fuel sensor display/gauge. It gives you a digital readout of the ethanol content and fuel temperature. No need to check content with the test tube, been there, done that.

There are items on the market that can make almost anything safe now.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.

Last edited by stangjumper; 05-13-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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post #9 of 14 Old 05-13-2013, 05:35 PM
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stangjumper, you boys got lucky

Read up the differences between knock and pre-ignition. Your "no detonation" experiment was actually a "no knock" experiment. e85 is great for avoiding knock. However it is not particularly great at avoiding pre-ignition.

Usually the path to detonation is 1st knock, which raises chamber temperatures so that a hot spot starts causing pre-ignition, which raises temperatures even more resulting in detonation.

e85 helps with cooling no doubt, but when you're running lean you're short on your e85 delivery by definition, which means you're short on it's cooling abilities too.

'94 GT, White, Cobra hood & bumper cover, '95R wheels
393w, Vic Jr 60cc, XE282HR, Victor 5.8 EFI, 80# injectors, Hooker LT 1 3/4 to 3", Borla proXS
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-13-2013, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangjumper View Post
In my use of E85 over the last 4 1/2 years, my engine and everyone else that I know that runs it, does not have any issues when the ethanol content changes rom 85-70%. I do not alter the timing curve from only a 15% swing. From my use of it it is almost impossible to get detonation with it. It's cooling effect is unbelievable. My alt took a dump a few years back and my A/F was 15:1 at 15psi right up to 7500rpm's. The engine was down on power but it didn't break or damage anything, the engine is still running stron today untouched. My friend also ran 16:1 A/F down the 1/4 mile when his methanol kit didn't come on (running e85-the brake vac booster tank split in half) still running a low 9 sec pass with 18psi. He ran the engine for another 2 years untill he took it apart. The engine was perfect inside other than the cheap broken connecting rod and hole in the cylinder LOL. On my engine I can add 10* more timing across the map everywhere and it will still not detonate because of the E85. It doesn't make any more power with more timing so there is no need to run that much timing in my case.



From 70-85% is about 5% fueling difference. Any ECU running with WB correction will handle that no problem. A carb is a different story though.



IMO any ECU that is worth anything should be able to alter the fuel and/or timing curve depending on the ethanol content. I have the flex fuel sensor wired into my ECU and it changes the fueling of the injectors depending on the content to give me the desired A/F (I can richen/lean the target A/F mixture automatically in the ECU depending on content). I can also alter the timing and boost level (turbo). All without doing anything other than putting fuel in the tank.



I also run the Zeitronics flex fuel sensor display/gauge. It gives you a digital readout of the ethanol content and fuel temperature. No need to check content with the test tube, been there, done that.



There are items on the market that can make almost anything safe now.
What ECU do you run??

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post #11 of 14 Old 05-15-2013, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by seijirou View Post
stangjumper, you boys got lucky

Read up the differences between knock and pre-ignition. Your "no detonation" experiment was actually a "no knock" experiment. e85 is great for avoiding knock. However it is not particularly great at avoiding pre-ignition.

Usually the path to detonation is 1st knock, which raises chamber temperatures so that a hot spot starts causing pre-ignition, which raises temperatures even more resulting in detonation.

e85 helps with cooling no doubt, but when you're running lean you're short on your e85 delivery by definition, which means you're short on it's cooling abilities too.
You can call it what ever you want. LOL All I know is E85 is AWESOME!!!! There are local guys running around on E85 with 45+lbs of boost with no issues at all.

I run an Autronic SM4 ECU 89BlackGTvert. Kind of like Motecs baby brother.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #12 of 14 Old 05-15-2013, 10:20 PM Thread Starter
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I'll look into the flexi fuel tune which adjusts to suit the ethanol content. Hopefully my ecu is capable of it.. its an EMS 4424 stinger, don't think you guys have them there
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post #13 of 14 Old 05-15-2013, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Although having the fate of your engine relying on an ethanol sensor kinda scares me...
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-16-2013, 03:17 PM
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Depending on the ecu you can built fail safes/limp home modes into the program.

Unfortunately there are no guarantees in this hobby. Anything can go wrong: fuel pump, injector, bad tank of gas, etc.....

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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