89 Mustang: Confusion on DIS for Holley EFI HP (need cam sync or not) - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 31 Old 08-27-2012, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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89 Mustang: Confusion on DIS for Holley EFI HP (need cam sync or not)

I am planning to use the DIS with the Holley EFI HP to ditch my MSD. I am confused as to if I need to use the cam sync or not. How does the set up work without the cam sync vs with it? Instructions are here: http://www.holley.com/data/Products/.../199R10525.pdf & state:
Quote:
A cam sync signal is only required to run sequentially fired fuel injection.
Just a 331 YSi Street 90%/10% Strip car on E85 around 800whp when back together here. Going to the Holley from Anderson PMS since going to YSi (from T trim) and Fox Lake TW 207 heads (from TW 170's) and 3.0" exhaust (from 2.5) and need more injector than the PMS will control while maintaining street manners.


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post #2 of 31 Old 08-28-2012, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Talked to Holley and figured it out. Without the cam sync, the DIS works off of timing from TDC of #1 with that signal coming from the 58x or 60-2 wheel. The signal is triggered from the missing teeth on the wheel. Once that trigger is sent, time is used to control spark/fuel using firing order. The time of events is rpm dependent then. Basically working just like it did off distributor but now just using the wheel.

With the cam sync, you would have true sequential fuel injection where a set amount of fuel can be adjusted for individual cylinders. Not really needed for a street car so gonna skip the the cam sync and just use the 60-2 wheel. The wheel controls spark, and cam sync controls fuel is how I understood it.


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post #3 of 31 Old 09-01-2012, 05:48 PM
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Without a cam sync will the ecu know which cylinder is which? (when to fire the injector into the cylinder at the correct time)

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #4 of 31 Old 09-02-2012, 03:23 PM Thread Starter
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Crank trigger tells it where tdc on #1 is, just like a distributor does. For that revolution it is timed by rpm using known firing order.

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post #5 of 31 Old 09-02-2012, 03:31 PM
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The crank trigger will not tell it which cylinder it is on. The crank rotates twice for every one rotation of the dist. It could be 180* off. I would run a cam sensor. When I go my ecu running I had the dist (cam sensor) wired wrong. Everytime the engine started the a/f was off cause it was just picking an injector to be #1. Sometimes it was right, sometimes it was wrong.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #6 of 31 Old 09-02-2012, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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http://www.holley.com/data/Products/.../199R10525.pdf
Quote:
Note that a cam signal/sync is NOT required to properly run this DIS ignition system (since it is a waste fire design). It only needs to know when cylinder #1 is approaching. This is accomplished by the “missing teeth” in the 60-2 crank trigger wheel. A cam sync signal is only required to run sequentially fired fuel injection.
I did order the main unit & harness already. Found on sale for $1200 That is $340 off Holley list price!!! AutoPartsWAY.com - - 550-604 - Buy - 550-604 Online

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post #7 of 31 Old 09-02-2012, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Oh, here is the explanation clarified....now I get it. Waste Fire.
Quote:

http://www.holley.com/data/Products/.../199R10525.pdf (Holley EFI DIS manual)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TqB76mZzhM Diagnosing Waste Spark DIS Ignition Systems Autolite Spark Plugs - YouTube[/url] (Excellent waste-fire DIS ignition tutorial.)
• After watching the above waste-fire DIS tech video, four points really stand out:
1) The waste-fire DIS ignition must output greater spark energy and saturation time (duration), through its long secondary circuit (two spark plugs).
So a vehicle with waste-fire DIS must have a good alternator & charging system to consistently power the ignition system.
2) Each waste-fire coil always fires one spark plug in the conventional forward direction, and its companion
spark plug in the reverse direction. So the engine block and cylinder heads must be very well grounded.
For this reason, platinum spark plugs (not for N2O use) and iridium spark plugs (good for N2O use) must be used, because they conduct electricity better
and require less voltage to fire the spark. Iridium spark plugs are also 6 times harder, 8 times stronger and has a 1200F higher melting point than platinum.
3) The waste-fire DIS ignition, simultaneously fires a pair of cylinders; one near TDC of the compression stroke ("Event Cylinder") and near TDC of the exhaust stroke ("Waste Cylinder").
The exhaust stroke spark (although less energy) isn't actually wasted, because any unburned fuel during the initial combustion event, will be burned on the exhaust stroke.
This also improves exhaust emissions. For this same reason, I feel one must be especially scrutinous when reading spark plugs for performance tuning purposes.
4) The amount of cylinder pressure & greater electrical resistance, determines which spark plug gets the majority of the coil's voltage (compression stroke) and
which spark plug gets the waste voltage (exhaust stroke). So an engine needs to be in good working order to ensure proper operation of a waste-fire DIS ignition system.

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post #8 of 31 Old 09-02-2012, 06:30 PM
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Yes but the fuel injectors aren't firing at the correct time. That isn't good espically with large injectors.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #9 of 31 Old 09-03-2012, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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I was/am still wondering when the injectors are firing???

So obviously I need to just do it right and run a cam sync. Hmm which set up?

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post #10 of 31 Old 09-03-2012, 08:58 AM
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AEM makes a cam sensor -- or you could use a factory Explorer/Mountaineer unit. Both drop in the spot where the dizzy used to live.

Actually - the more HP/larger the injector, the less of an issue injector timing is. At large throttle openings/big power output, the injector has to open WAY before the intake valve gets ready to open in order to deliver the proper amount of fuel. In most cases it works a lot like the old CIS systems - which kind of mimics a carb. The air/fuel is waiting for the valve to open. Nevertheless, if I were going to the trouble of a standalone system and including distributorless ignition, I'd want to synch up the fuel injection.


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post #11 of 31 Old 09-03-2012, 09:08 AM Thread Starter
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Figured out this dilema thanks to the Holley site, but good info for here too. Obviously, I have never messed with crank triggers or cam syncs, so this is all new to me.......and really want to understand all that is going on. I appreciate the help and the insight from both of you:
Quote:
Bank-to-Bank or Paired EFI injects half the amount of fuel (lb/hr - PW), twice for each combustion cycle (4-stroke engine). Sequential EFI injects the total amount of fuel (lb/hr - PW), once for each combustion cycle (4-stroke engine). So even though the net amount of fuel injected is the same, sequential EFI does it with half as many injector events, by injecting twice the amount of lb/hr - pulse width fuel. The injector duty cycle remains the same but with a doubled pulse width of sequential injection. The increased injector pulse width is why large injectors can still idle good under sequential control but not under Bank-to-Bank control (or Paired). Different injection method but essentially the same amount of fuel consumed.

Sequential injection will always get slightly better fuel economy and cleaner exhaust emissions. Also, according to page 152 of "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" (book by Jeff Hartman), sequential injection always gains power at peak torque and at peak horsepower. However, for racing applications, the most significant benefit to sequential injection is good idle quality with very large injectors (for the reasons in my quote above), and individual cylinder fuel correction (adjustments).

Another benefit of sequential EFI, is the capability to phase the injector timing, during the intake stroke for best efficiency. Also, since sequential EFI only injects once per cycle, the injector dead time is not doubled (like it is with non-sequential injection, which results in decreased fuel flow and sometimes requires a larger injector to compensate).
http://www.m-techautomotive.co.uk/ec...c_glossary.htm (Read "Injection Timing", "Injector Dead Time" & "Individual Cylinder Trim".)

An individual runner intake manifold (multiple throttle bodies) is the one application where sequential injection has the least amount of benefits (power-wise), because the individual runner design gets it's own (isolated) air & fuel supply for each cylinder.

Holley's Untimed Sequential injection strategy still injects once per revolution, but without a cam sync sensor. Untimed Sequential injection (like full sequential), also has the benefit of improved 'fuel rail pressure balance' (pulses), even though it doesn't inject in sequence with each cylinder's intake valve opening. It still injects fuel in accordance to the engine's firing order (programmed into EFI software), however, without a cam sync sensor, it can't identify #1 cylinder.
I agree now that I understand. May as well do it RIGHT since going through all the trouble.

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post #12 of 31 Old 09-03-2012, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Yount View Post
AEM makes a cam sensor -- or you could use a factory Explorer/Mountaineer unit. Both drop in the spot where the dizzy used to live.

Actually - the more HP/larger the injector, the less of an issue injector timing is. At large throttle openings/big power output, the injector has to open WAY before the intake valve gets ready to open in order to deliver the proper amount of fuel. In most cases it works a lot like the old CIS systems - which kind of mimics a carb. The air/fuel is waiting for the valve to open. Nevertheless, if I were going to the trouble of a standalone system and including distributorless ignition, I'd want to synch up the fuel injection.
Persanallt I wouldn't run the AEM EPM. There were a lot of issues with it.

As far as the larger injectors being less of an issue with injector timing, it's actually the opposite. You don't want to squirt fuel in the intake and have it sitting there (mimicing a carb) puddling up on the intake runners. It will not atomize well. I can play with my injector timing and at idle and lower rpms the injector timing makes a pretty big difference, (I run 220lb injectors).

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #13 of 31 Old 09-04-2012, 11:57 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, how about this?

Here is a link for modding a MSD to use as a cam sync. I would think I could mod my Ford Motorsport in the same fashion.....not worring about the spark step since using DIS and just setting for the sync?? C&B Motorsports | Salina, Kansas

Or just get one from an explorer and use it? Probably simpler yet.

Then use the Ford Small Block Crank Trigger Kit - 8640 for the crank???

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post #14 of 31 Old 09-04-2012, 01:53 PM
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I just use my stock dist for the cam sync.

New build in progress: Twin Gen 2 PT6466 352

Old combo:352 single 76mm turbo, 16psi, AOD, 9.41 @ 149mph, E85, 255/50/16 MT DR, 3500lb STREET car driven everywhere.
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post #15 of 31 Old 09-06-2012, 05:56 PM Thread Starter
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I was able to buy an AEM EPM off a member here for $125 and will use that for cam sync. I will now order MSD Flying Magnet Crank Trigger MSD Ignition 8640 - MSD Flying Magnet Crank Trigger - Overview - SummitRacing.com along with the Holley coils and go from there.
Thanks.

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post #16 of 31 Old 09-30-2012, 04:15 AM
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im running the holley hp, also bought a aem epm used but in great shape, then found out the holley hp cant read the 12v square wave signal that the epm produces, ended up buying a special bushing and using a cam sync out of a 4.0 v-6 ranger, works perfect on my windsor Brad
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post #17 of 31 Old 10-15-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangBrad94gt View Post
... ended up buying a special bushing and using a cam sync out of a 4.0 v-6 ranger, works perfect on my windsor Brad
I know this thread is a little older. Can you go into detail on what you did here ? I'm looking to go HP EFI/Coil Pack/ " EPM " on my 351 Windsor.

How does the Ranger Cam Sync work at high RPM ?
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post #18 of 31 Old 11-09-2012, 08:31 PM
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ranger cam sync works flawless, compatible with the hp, its a 3 wire hall efect, 12v in, 12v out and a ground, on a windsor you need the bushing that stangguy sells on the turbo forums, 55 bux shipped, then it is a drop in[IMG][/IMG]

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post #19 of 31 Old 11-24-2012, 09:50 PM Thread Starter
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You sure the AEM won't work for cam sync? This guy said that it would: Magnetic & Hall-Effect Crank/Cam Sensor Setup

Can you post or PM me exactly how to get a hold of stangguy to get a bushing? Sent you a PM. Appreciated.

-MH

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post #20 of 31 Old 11-26-2012, 07:04 PM Thread Starter
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Just to clarify, spacer is only needed on 9.5 deck. On 8.2 it is a direct bolt in.
Cal got back with me.
Quote:
Don't need a spacer then. Just a cam sensor from a 5.0 explorer. Find them on eBay
Was able to pick one up for $45 shipped & it was a low mile take out unit.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390502133644...84.m1497.l2649

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post #21 of 31 Old 11-26-2012, 10:10 PM
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Have a link for the bushing on the turbo forums ? What coils are you guys using ? Can this work with a 90* crank trigger ?
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post #22 of 31 Old 11-27-2012, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
Just to clarify, spacer is only needed on 9.5 deck. On 8.2 it is a direct bolt in.
Cal got back with me.

Was able to pick one up for $45 shipped & it was a low mile take out unit.
5.0 EXPLORER GT40 DISTRIBUTOR HALF SHAFT PICK UP UNIT | eBay

Do you know where to get the bushing for the Camsync ?

I'm out in LaPorte, which isn't that far from you.
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post #23 of 31 Old 11-27-2012, 08:12 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unitek View Post
Do you know where to get the bushing for the Camsync ?

I'm out in LaPorte, which isn't that far from you.
Really close. I work in South Bend and am looking to buy a home between SB & La Porte in the country if I stay in this cold ass state.
[email protected] (corrected email 11/29/12) for the spacer. He got back with me right away.

I am going to use/already bought the MSD Flying Magnet Crank Trigger # 8640 which is 90*. I am also going with the Holley coils. Too many issues I have read about with others..especially cop set ups......so just going the safe route.

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post #24 of 31 Old 11-27-2012, 10:21 PM
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Thanks a lot for the contact info.

Yeah, I live right in town in Laporte. I have the Innovators West Crank Trigger balancer ( 90*) so I can use all the stock pulleys and spacing. I just bought today the whole HP EFI kit. Coil Pack setup, NTK Wideband/ i-o harness and ignition harness. I just bought a Ranger 4.0 Cam Sync as well.

Im putting all this on a 408/YSi motor in my 93. We should get together and help each other on installing this since were doing the same setup lol.
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post #25 of 31 Old 11-27-2012, 10:24 PM
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Can you double check Stang guys email ? I just sent an email to him and it got rejected as undeliverable.
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I'm also interested in that 351w deck height spacer deal, if you get it figured out.

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post #27 of 31 Old 11-29-2012, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unitek View Post
Can you double check Stang guys email ? I just sent an email to him and it got rejected as undeliverable.
I had the email addy typoed. It is [email protected]
Sorry 'bout that.

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@ the O.P. Did you ever get the Holley EFI working?
I am starting to collect parts for this project as we speak.
I've been doing some research on the Holley forums, the threads on yellowbullet (Gary medders thread) and on here.

Its information overload! I was thinking bout using the explorer cam sync, and the MSD 8740, and DIS. Is this what you went with?

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post #29 of 31 Old 03-20-2013, 12:09 PM
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mhinchly - do you know the pin out for the cam sync ? Left to right facing the front of the motor. FWIW, you can use the MSD crank trigger wheel, but you need to use the Holley hall effect trank trigger sensor.

Holley Performance Products Hall Effect Crank Trigger Sensor#554-118
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post #30 of 31 Old 03-21-2013, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast82LX View Post
@ the O.P. Did you ever get the Holley EFI working?
I am starting to collect parts for this project as we speak.
I've been doing some research on the Holley forums, the threads on yellowbullet (Gary medders thread) and on here.

Its information overload! I was thinking bout using the explorer cam sync, and the MSD 8740, and DIS. Is this what you went with?
That is what I was going with but with Holley DIS coils. I have the Explorer cam sync if you need one. I have decided to sell out the car and buy a house so did not complete.

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post #31 of 31 Old 03-21-2013, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unitek View Post
mhinchly - do you know the pin out for the cam sync ? Left to right facing the front of the motor. FWIW, you can use the MSD crank trigger wheel, but you need to use the Holley hall effect trank trigger sensor.

Holley Performance Products Hall Effect Crank Trigger Sensor#554-118
Canceled project before getting that far. Yellowbullet has all the info in the world on Holley.........or just use the Holley forum. Holley EFI
Danny Cabral over there knows this system inside and out.

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