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post #1 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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Electric Fan

I have an 88gt that i just installed gt40 aluminum heads and i was wondering what is the best kind of electric fan that i can get?

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post #2 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 07:48 PM
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i use a black magic


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post #3 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 08:09 PM
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Spal dual 11"
$250 flows a true 2700cfm
Black magic is no comparison

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post #4 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 08:11 PM
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Go do a search.

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post #5 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 08:26 PM
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I use the set up Tim describes - the SPAL shrouded twin 11". Awesome set up - just be sure you use quality components to power it; and be sure you've got enough alternator.

Do you drive an E55?

Michael Yount - Charlotte, NC - 82 Volvo 242 - 6.2L; '17 Mazda3; '16 CrossTrek
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post #6 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 09:21 PM
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you have to get a better alternator for the spal,dam that puts you at like $450.thats alot for a mild setup.lol.gray 86 compare what you want but it works fine on my 10 sec ride for the $$$and no problem with stock alternator

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post #7 of 34 Old 02-23-2004, 09:52 PM
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Does kind of depend on how you're using the car. If you're just cooling down between runs, and the occasional street cruise, there are a number of them that will work. If you're street/daily driven, a/c, stop and go traffic in the south in the summer, then you need serious air movement. The Mark VIII/Thunderbird fan also moves a bunch of air.

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post #8 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 01:07 AM
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i think by far the fctoryt fans off the 94 to 98 cars are the best keeps the 408 at 190 no prob about 180 $ if u know some one at ford looks nice too

408 powered best on Hoosier et drag's 1.35 [email protected] pandjspeedshop . net
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post #9 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 05:44 AM
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If you don't want to upgrade the alternator, get the most efficient fan you can find. The Mark Viii flows 3000 cfm at 10A and 3500 at 15A. On the rare occasion that you might need the flow, it will flow 4300 cfm at 30A.
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post #10 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 07:12 AM
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Baskin - good info on the fan; where'd you get the numbers -- have you actually measured it? I didn't have the lower numbers; I've heard 47A at the high end.

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post #11 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 07:33 AM
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The only other reliable numbers that I've seen are from M Smith. The difference between our numbers is in that he measures his numbers cold, which is correct for a relay system, and I measure my numbers hot, which is correct for a variable speed system since the fan motor is always heated by flowing air through the radiator. (our cold numbers are within 3%)

I calculated my flow numbers indirectly in that I calculated motor efficiency and final horsepower, found the theoretical flow given uniform velocity, and dropped the number 10% to account for nonuniform velocity. The 10% is a fudge factor, but the final number is certainly within +/- 5% I can post the equations on the site (dccontrol) if you want.

Heres a flow graph and dimensional measurements for the m8

http://www.dccontrol.com/3018info.htm
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post #12 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 07:46 AM
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if you want a fan that will bolt right on, and includes all necessary hardware then get the black magic. There are a lot better fans out there, but the BM really isn't as bad as everyone says.
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post #13 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 10:54 AM
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Great additional detail - I'm still not certain how you measured the amperages - inductive pickup? And those three set points - do they correpsond to certain fan speeds? It appears based on the link that the speed/flow is infinitely variable by some sort of controller that varies current or voltage to the motor; seems to make for 'smoother' control of temps, rather than the on/off step function you get with hi/lo temp switches.

In your flow calcs - what sort of allowance did you make for drop across the coil? I've seen hi cfm/low Amp units advertised, but as I investigated what I've consistently found is that the hi cfm/lo amp numbers aren't consistent with actually having the fan mounted to a radiator. In other words - put a coil in front of it and either the amperage goes up to move the same amount of air, or the flow drops off at the lower amperage. Curious what your assumptions were there.

The unit is incredibly efficient if it will pull 3000 cfm across a typical 2 or 3 row 18 fin/inch core with only 10 amps. Unfortunately, I can't use it because of space requirements. Mine, rated at 2780 cfm across the coil pulls 34A doing so.

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post #14 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 07:56 PM
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I measured the current directly with a carbon block and digital amp meter (1mv/A).

The cfm and fan speeds track linearly

Your'e exactly right. both the current will rise (and rise more on an efficient motor) and the flow will drop.

Back pressure is caused by an increase in velocity in that work is needed to increase the knetic energy of the flowing air. If you examine a rediator core, you will find only about 10% of the surface blocked. If the remaining flow area is less than the fan blade area, the change in velocity is simply carried through. In other words, the limited area of the blade sets the maximum velocity. The large shroud on the m8 helps lower back pressure drop as it covers more of the radiator.

I haven't calculated coil drop. Most numbers that I've seen are with no drop, some, even from manufacturers are just pulled out of thin air. The only mfr that I know of who actually measures and posts accurate flow drop through backpressure is spahl.

You'll notice that the current doesn't rise much on spahl's backpressure numbers, so torque doesn't increase much with load. (spahl internally limits the current of their fans in order to be able to run relay controllers reliably, this lowers the back pressure performance)

It would be impossible for someone to tell you how much drop your radiator is providing without knowing the fin density,which is why I haven't bothered to measure it, so I would either take the bp drop numbers for 2, 3 core with a grain of salt or measure the drop directly.

Here's the controller for your spahl setup

http://www.dccontrol.com/kitsr1.htm

expect a curve similar to the 3018, but with less flow. (You'll still get higher efficiency most of the time as the efficiency is always higher at reduced voltages than at full voltage)
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post #15 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 08:34 PM
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Very interesting discussion. I have the old PSM Variflow with 2 Subaru!! fans and it has been very reliable so far. As you mention on the website this PSM unit does drain the battery if left alone. Mine takes about 2weeks and it's gone. I think the SPAL twin 11" is the Porsche of fans but you do pay the price. I wish I had room for the mark8.

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post #16 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for all the great ideas... no i don't drive one but i work at a Benz dealer and it is my fav car on the lot
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post #17 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 09:03 PM
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baskin - great discussion - thanks for the confirmations. I wasn't suggesting that anyone could predict drops -- just that quoting flow numbers without regard to the drop only tells a part of the story.

Great link!!! I've been playing with my set up for a year and half now and am still not happy with it's performance. I seem to be able to optimize it in July or January, but not all year round. The link you sent doesn't have any contact info - unless I missed it. I'll pm you offline. Thanks.
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post #18 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 10:17 PM
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www.dccontrol.com

[email protected]

The taurus fan is also efficient and is easier to fit than the m8

http://www.dccontrol.com/3516info.htm


BTW

If you want to find the drop numbers through the radiator, it’s actually pretty easy to measure backpressure. Connect two tubes at their bases, mark their height in inches, leave one tube open and seal a small hose to the top of the other. Place the tube between the fan and radiator and read the rise in inches.
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post #19 of 34 Old 02-24-2004, 10:48 PM
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Does anyone with dccontrol have a phone number? I'm gonna need a live body on the other end.....
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-25-2004, 07:49 AM
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I am using a fan out of a 94 couger ($20) and I have never had a voltage problem nor cooling problem. I dont know what CFM it flows but it keeps the car as cool as I want it to.

351W with an electrical GREMLIN!!!!
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post #21 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 01:12 AM
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posted flow equations

http://www.dccontrol.com/Compressible Fluid Flow.pdf

Last edited by baskin; 02-27-2004 at 01:16 AM.
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post #22 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 03:14 AM
 
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baskin,

I found your stats on the amperage the Mark VIII fan will draw at the various CFM levels interesting, but I'm not sure how to apply it.

If I have a standard Fox-body alternator, I know the full amperage the Mark VIII fan will draw after startup, about 30 amps, is probably more than the alternator can deliver, especially at idle. But from your data, I can see that if I could limit the Mark VIII fan to a 15 amp draw, it would still produce 3500 cfm of airflow. That's a lot more airflow than the Black Magic or any of the rest of the 15 amp fans can really deliver, more airflow than the twin-fan Spal setup delivers at 30 amps, and it would probably be enough to keep things cool while not overwhelming my standard Fox-body alternator.

But at the risk of sounding less than enlightened, I don't know how to restrict the Mark VIII to only drawing 15 amps. Is this where a fan controller or an inline resistor would come in handy? Or would you do something else? And if you were to do whatever is required on a regular basis, would it be inclined to burn up the fan or reduce its longevity, or would it have no adverse short or long term effect on the fan?

Thanks.
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post #23 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 05:03 AM
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It’s unlikely that you’ll have to limit the current. This is best shown by example:

The worst case set of conditions with regard to cooling typically occur late in the day, around 2:00 pm.

Assuming an outside temperature is 120 degrees F, and the engine temperature is to be regulated at 180 degrees F, the allowable temperature rise is 60 degrees F.

During this time, it is unlikely that your headlights (15 A) are on, and even more unlikely that your fog lights (10 A) are on. So, although the fan may be drawing 30 A, the charging system is relieved of 25A worth of lighting. So with the air conditioning fan, the stereo system and everything else running on high, you’re left with a 5 A deficit.

Let’s say that by time the sun sets, the temperature has dropped to 100 degrees F. The allowable temperature rise is now 80 degrees. Three fourths of the cfm , or 12A of current is now needed to maintain the 80 degree temperature rise. Although your headlights are on, it is unlikely that there is fog at 100 degrees F, your deficit is now 2 A.

By time the fog has set in at 60 degrees F, a 120 degree rise is allowable, 2150 cfm and 4A current draw, a 4A deficit.

The battery should be able to sustain a 5 A current draw for a number of hours. Realistically, it is unlikely that 4300 cfm will ever be needed, but if it is needed, the trade off for 5 A or having to shut off the stereo system in lieu of overheating is certainly worth while.

A series resistor would dissipate well over 100 W. Most of the efficiency of the system would also be lost. Check the links in this thread for the necessary controller.

A PWM greatly increases the longevity of the fan motor, as there is no current peak at startup, nor is there the wear on the bearings byway of the corresponding torque.

Here's a link to some performance numbers

https://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...ht=track+delta
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post #24 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 08:05 AM
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Don't forget the Ramchargers twin fan setup. It's hard to beat for the price ($79.99). The downside is the large width of the unit. It is made by valeo, a large oem parts supplier.

http://ramchargers.com/cgi-bin/ncomm...497&cat2=29164

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post #25 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by baskin
I measured the current directly with a carbon block and digital amp meter (1mv/A).
Baskin, Mike and I have discussed my measurement of the Thunderbird/Couger two speed fan I have with a 15amp/50mv DC shunt. I'm not familkiar with a carbon block - work the same way? I wish I had a 50amp/50mv shunt. I measured 35mv on low speed and 55mv on high and assumed the shunt would be linear past it's rating as long as I did not run it long and heat it up. A series inductor will keep inrush down too, but they get a little on the large side if rated for 20 amps.

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post #26 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 08:55 AM
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I just ran mine over to AutoZone and had them put the inductive clamp from their portable battery/alternator testing machine around the 8 gauge wire that feeds the power block for my fan relays. That's how I got the 34A number for mine.
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post #27 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 10:05 AM
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Tmos, I think we're talking about the same part. Pure copper isn't used for current measurement due to the high change in resistance verses temperature (about 6%/10 deg C).

I don't have a couger fan to measure, so I don't have anything to compare with your measurements. The high/ low current ratio of the OEMs are typically about 3:1.

An inductor won't help much for the surge current as the current surge is dependant on the time that it takes the fan motor to reach angular momentum. You would need more than a practical amount of inductance for the needed 2 second time constant.
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post #28 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 01:03 PM
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Mike, I don't know that I would trust a Hall Effect pick up for ±5% accuracy. Lots of factors go into it's accuracy. They are much better than they used to be but I don't trust them personnaly unless I know their rated accuracy and if the've been checked for calibration.

I do have 2-15amp/50mv shunts, so I could put them in parralel and check against my first readings over the 15A rating of the shunt.

baskin - yeah the time constant factor would increase the inductance needed to effectively knock down in-rush, but anything is better than nothin.

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post #29 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 02:22 PM
 
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baskin,

It almost sounds as if you are saying that there should be no need to upgrade a Fox-body alternator if you install a Mark VIII fan. Although you obviously know more about the subject than I do, that seems to fly in the face of “conventional wisdom”, which has consistently been that you have to upgrade to a 130 amp 3g alternator to run a Mark VIII fan in a Fox.

I do recall, however, that the Mark VIII is a two-stage fan, and it occurs to me that one might be able to limit the amps a Mark VIII can draw by using the low-speed circuit only. Hopefully, that would avoid killing the fan’s efficiency, while still avoiding a potential 30 amp draw situation. Do you happen to know how many amps a Mark VIII fan will draw on the low-speed circuit at maximum draw, or how many CFM of air the fan can move on the low-speed circuit at maximum amperage draw?

But getting back to your examples of current load in various scenarios, you seem to be making the assumption that the fan will draw only as many amps as it needs in each situation. Maybe via a controller it will, but my experience with auto electric fans is that they are digital – either all on or all off. That may be because I have only run single-speed fans, and only through a manual switch, but once turned on, I’m expecting the fan to run flat-out and draw whatever amperage it requires to do so until it is shut off. So even in your scenarios that require less than maximum CFM from the fan, I’d expect the Mark VIII fan to draw 30 amps whenever it is running, at least if the fan has been wired to run high-speed only (which is how lots of them are wired when they are installed in non-stock applications). So I’d be real leery of the scenario where the headlights, the fan, and maybe the air conditioner are on at the same time, especially in a stop-and-go freeway jam situation. Throw in the stereo, and there’s trouble, although the stereo could be done without if necessary, as you noted.

What does the abbreviation PWM stand for? It’s one I’m not familiar with.

Thanks.
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post #30 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 02:26 PM
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Yeah - that's why I mentioned the source Tom - I don't know how accurate they are, but I know they're not as good as the other methods of measuring. However, it was much better than guessing by putting progressively larger fuses in - which was the approach I'd been using!
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post #31 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 02:30 PM
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oldLX - one of the great things about the controller is that it has the potential to significantly reduce the current draw from the stock system. When both my fans kick on, there's a steady draw (after peak) of about 35A hitting the system. And when it hits, it hits all at once. I know from watching them cycle that most of the time, I just need one to keep things cool. With the controller, it will only spin them up enough to do the cooling that's necessary - and I think I'll be able to get by with a 95A alternator (what I have on there now). As it was, during the summer, I was wishing I had a 130A when both fans would hit at dusk with lights and a/c on high at idle conditions. I think if I hadn't replaced it already, I'd try the controller before I swapped out the alternator. With a big capacity battery, it might be ok. If not, you can upgrade later and know that you're still minimizing current draw and wear/tear on the fan motors.
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post #32 of 34 Old 02-27-2004, 05:02 PM
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Mike, you do seem to be right in the ballpark baskin quoted as a 3:1 ratio though. We both measured 10-11 amps on low, so about 30 amps looks right for high.

old lx - PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulated. What it means is that a controller's electronics takes a 12v volt source and pulses that on and off to a motor in steps in a very short duration series of pulses - milliseconds typically. The shorter the width or "on time" of the pulse, the less average voltage is applied and the wider the pulse, the more voltage is applied. Making sense? It's the very same way your EEC controls the injectors.

I just bought a new 150A alternator for $140 deliverd to my door.

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post #33 of 34 Old 03-12-2004, 10:58 PM
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post #34 of 34 Old 04-24-2004, 06:22 AM
 
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friends do not let friend use black magic fans

CSI-1225 temperature gauge with controller(check out Summit, it's a really cool toy), 75 amp relay and a Lincoln fan (using the fast speed side). Cheaper setup than a Black Magic

Black Magic Fans CAN NOT, WILL NOT AND NEVER WILL (because after several years of making this turd, Flex_A-Lite still hasn't addressed this issue) cool down a 300 plus horse fox body. I almost lost a motor over this POS.

And on a cruise night, I damn near lost a finger when I checked to see why the car was overheating. I discovered the fan was indeed still running..

..enough was enough

Besides being a weak fan, there is a quality control issue that Flex-a-lite hasn't addressed with their fan controllers. I went through two. Besides, any manufacturer that has pride in the product they make, will overbuild it. They don't.

3 core FMS radiator and hi vol waterpump (even with an oversize F-150 crank pulley and a 93 cobra w/p pulley) still left the car sitting in traffic overheating. This was with the fan wired always on, because I could never trust the temp controller.

I finally decided to go the Lincoln route. No problem. 190-195 degrees on a Novi overdriven blower.

Last edited by Hella Good; 04-24-2004 at 06:39 AM.
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