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post #1 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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Tps erratic

Tried 2 different tps switches. Both check out fine .98v idle then smooth to 4.86v WOT& other .94v idle 4.54v WOT.
My anderson PMS shows both smooth and working fine no codes KOEO.
Once I fire it up display shows erratic throttle response like it's not opening enough, where as ignition on, not running smooth as butter, so obviously getting wrong info to ecu, hence crap running.
Changed first tps, was fine. Now day later same issue with either.
Salt n peppers clean. Added pics to show those unfamiliar with the old PMS. Again sweeps progressively idle to wot ignition on, running almost stays at idle then shows much lower reading than it should with press on gas pedal.
Any ideas?

Update; tried 3rd tps switch, all good for say 4 mins...idled revved up...then started reading slow and engine was a a slug, missing. Bad connection/wire?
I will run a KOER when I can get some help.

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Last edited by Mustanglimey; 09-24-2018 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Update
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post #2 of 28 Old 09-24-2018, 08:59 PM
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what i am supposed to see from those pics?

get a graphing meter, and perform the sweep, so we can see there are no glitches

if the tps checks out with a meter........the tps is fine, why would you install a new one?


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #3 of 28 Old 09-25-2018, 04:48 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Indy, I have spare parts as I'm in the UK and they are not as available here so keep them to hand, saves the wait.
The tps is good with ignition on, Check it on a DVM. The Anderson PMS display shows the same but as Idle percentages then wot, as well as other parameters. I fire the engine up and the tps is almost unresponsive on the screen and runs rough as in no throttle response (bad tps)
I could add video to show, but engine running gives symptoms of bad tps as in unresponsive sweep and adding throttle stays at idle, may jump to up but slow and only idle volts at say 1500rpm foot on gas.
Replace tps all seems good for 1 or few minutes then breaks down again.
So by changing tps twice I feel that's not the issue.
No other sensor issues, and only engine running.
I don't know what a graphing meter is, I'll look into that.
Again sweeps smooth no glitches on dvm and display with ignition on engine off. Gets funky with engine on either straight away, or 1-5 minutes later hence could it be a short on one of the 3 wires.
Any ball park ideas.

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post #4 of 28 Old 09-25-2018, 09:15 AM
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backprobe the the three wires off the tps with engine running at the tps

if good then backprobe at the ecm

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #5 of 28 Old 09-25-2018, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Indy

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post #6 of 28 Old 09-28-2018, 01:38 PM Thread Starter
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Pulled the ecu, 2 or the 3 capacitors ####ed. Getting all 3 replaced and board checked out.
Only when I wiggled them and the 1 leg from both came away. Hope this puts all my gremlins to bed.

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post #7 of 28 Old 09-28-2018, 07:03 PM
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It might

But i dont see that part of the 5v regulator

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post #8 of 28 Old 10-04-2018, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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Get the ecu back tomorrow. Had 3 bad capacitors and burnt trace on one.
Let's see how it goes, will update here of course.

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post #9 of 28 Old 10-05-2018, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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You was right Indy. Repaired ecu put in...Same as before, ok on PMS screen and dvm on tps KOEO. Start car and no throttle response on PMS or dvm on tps...hardly moves. Back probed tps same, hardly moving. I will back probe ecm connection next. KOEO and running when I get time.
So if it's bad at tps only with engine running any more ideas?
Run out of daylight and don't have a garage.
ECM disconnected, the 60 pin 3 wires to tps ( 46-47-26) all check out with the random "beep" test for connection.
No other sensor issues, and the sig rtn to all sensors and ecm do the same.
Engine running is what causes the issue.
Appreciate your help.

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post #10 of 28 Old 10-05-2018, 04:20 PM
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forget the pms, its really junk

use a dvom and measure

you need to verify the 5v ref

is the ecm making it?

is it being shorted by a sensor?

all with a dvom

these repair places do NOT actually test the ecm, its well documented

another poster went through the same issue, the 5v reg on the board was shot


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post #11 of 28 Old 10-05-2018, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Got 4.99v on ref wire KOEO. On TPS.
Not checked in KOER ( will try tomorrow)
Back probed TPS KOER 0.98, few blips of throttle no higher than 1.46v.
Swooped out another TPS sensor, same result.
Goes lame once engine started. All readings good once shut off and KOEO?
Thanks for the response.

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post #12 of 28 Old 10-05-2018, 05:22 PM
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does not sound like you installed the tps correctly

it doesn't just bolt on

the flange needs to be on the correct side

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #13 of 28 Old 10-05-2018, 05:55 PM Thread Starter
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I'll double check in the morning, but don't account for the same issues as the original one that just started acting up after running fine.

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post #14 of 28 Old 10-06-2018, 09:39 AM
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you can test the tps, off of the TB

just connect it electrically and turn the wiper by hand while looking at the meter

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #15 of 28 Old 10-10-2018, 02:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
you can test the tps, off of the TB

just connect it electrically and turn the wiper by hand while looking at the meter
Sorry for the delay, had family business.
I did the above and my results are the same. All good ignition on, fire it up and hardly any response say.98 to 1.4v and not smooth at all.
Tried it while cranking, coil lead off and on ( fuel pump off on a toggle A1000) and it's fine-normal. So it's something when its actually running? Fuel pump running doesn't effect it.
The 5 volt ref (4.99 I get) is stable KOEO & KOER. only codes were emission related. Although today the code reader won't work. Sig rtn shows 0.5ohms between sensors, test port, and from sensors to ecm. KOEO.
So basically KOEO all good, including cranking. KOER, 5v ref ok but tps then struggles to send out volts, idle ok but no real response from pedal or manually moving throttle, ecu gets same results at its end. Sig rtns check out good for ground.
1/ Cranking means plugs sparking, tfi sending signal, pip etc; TPS responds fine...so apart from turning pump on (which as I said don't effect signal) what else can be happening to upset the tps signal leaving AT the tps from the green wire.

Rather confused!!!
I've found a3rd tps I have to try.

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post #16 of 28 Old 10-10-2018, 06:43 PM
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Any ohm tests done, i will ignore and so should you, does not prove anything

Are you saying backprobing at the ecm connector tps signal is fine engine off, but no good on?

You are missing something with your testing, how the leads are setup is of utmost importance

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post #17 of 28 Old 10-11-2018, 03:34 AM Thread Starter
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Yes that seems the problem, the tps signal is fine and smooth engine off, ignition on, cranking with coil lead on and off.
Engine running it struggles to leave idle voltage from both the tps and going into ecm.
My buddy is an electrician and is coming to help Saturday. He is better qualified to test stuff than me.
Running is not affecting 5volt ref, sig rtn checks out as grounded, just the green signal that leaves the tps.
Push throttle and wants to stay at idle volts or rise very little, hence rpms raise but ecm not seeing this.
It's like something interfering with this wire when running.
I know ecm supplies ground and 5v ref both seem stable KOER
It's the green return, and this just sends back voltage signal it's supplied with depending on position (obviously) and that signal only comes from the tps.
Sorry just thinking out loud!
Thanks Indy.

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post #18 of 28 Old 10-11-2018, 10:14 AM
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again

are you checking the signal at the ECM CONNECTOR?

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post #19 of 28 Old 10-11-2018, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Indy, will do this Sunday with my buddy as I know he is 100% at this stuff.
Will confirm this ASAP, but no garage and working long hours, burst pipe and a funeral...not enough hours in the days at the mo. This will be first thing I do.
As always many thanks for taking time to reply.


More thinking aloud for who may read my ramblings;
I know the Anderson PMS is not everyone's favourite but it does show me what the ecu is seeing from my limited understanding.
The factory 60 pin goes into the PMS loom which in turn plugs into the factory ecm and branches into the display screen.
So my thinking was the display was confirming that info regarding the tps as it has to pass through the factory loom, PMS loom and ecm.
Also gives error codes including tps which it does not.
I could take the PMS off just to test tps but would run horrid, but may do to rule it out.
Pin 46 pins out all the way through to factory 60 pin, and the Anderson 60 pin and multi plugs in the Anderson ecm 0.5ohm.

I have bought a InterACQ data logger from a corral member (in transit to uk via container) so I can tune more indepth log and see more real time what's going on. especially on a pass....if I ever sort this tps out
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post #20 of 28 Old 10-11-2018, 09:35 PM
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I see no where in your previous pics of this pms

tps voltage???

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post #21 of 28 Old 10-13-2018, 10:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
I see no where in your previous pics of this pms

tps voltage???
Back probed ecm best I could on my own as due to be raining all tomorrow when I have qualified help.
Same readings on DVM. perfect KOEO, cranking but not starting coil lead off, cranking coil lead on, ( fuel pump off on toggle) but soon as fired up looses virtually all response.
PMS screen does not show volts, it displays t/position voltage as a percentage. So if it's .98v that's idle, then it goes up 1% increments to WOT or 4.84v
You set it up on the display and if you set it wrong you get a code.
It reads real time so you can see say maf load, injector duty rate and of course tps. Again this is all good as above until KOER when thee displaay shows the same as the DVM, really no throttle signal going to ecm.
Again 5v ref good KOEO, KOER, and sig rtn shows grounded at all sensor and test port points.
I even ran a fresh ground from the tps to see if it helped but no change.
Found my 3rd TPS in box and that showed exactly same results.
To me seems like a ghost in the works...I'm going nuts!
KOEO sets no tps code, just emissions related as I have no egr, canister etc;
New capacitors, pin 46 trace good and all 60 pins ecm to actual board and solder points checked by a guy who doesn't do cars but high end audio. He said he put a certain light on it to check any circuits they may have been or were damaged. Let's them see through the layered/sandwiched board. Beyond me but an older engineer at my nephews HI Fi dealers.
Totally baffled at the mo unless I have 3 TPS Switches that are all crap under load.
Waiting for couple of spare TFI modules to arrive as spares. Could anything else interfere with "just" the tps engine running?

Just added pics just show how you see the TPS real time in % in instead of volts via display and laptop.
So I'm also interperating that this is what the ECM is seeing, same as the DVM but in a different format.
PMS pic is mine KOEO. Laptop pic is not mine just for reference.
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post #22 of 28 Old 10-13-2018, 10:46 AM
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the pms is giving you processed data

i want raw data from your dvom

i would remove the pms and check

these pms things are pretty much junk

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post #23 of 28 Old 10-13-2018, 01:42 PM
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I had an ECU that was converting TPS voltage to a higher voltage when read by the PMS screen. It was fine at the sensor but got scrambled in the Ford ECU before it sent it to the PMS purple box and the Gameboy controller. Basically, good at sensor. Good at ECU input. Bad at TPS Ford ECU output. Garbage after that. It did that repeatable after the Ford ECU got warmed up. Changed the Ford ECU with a good known one and life was good again. What you see on the gameboy is what the PMS purple box is seeing. However I have had O2's do the exact opposite. good in to the Ford ECU, good out of the Ford ECU, and scrambled in the Purple box PMS ECU. Hope that doesn't confuse. Took some time, both times to do a good troubleshoot at the pin in/out voltage. Takes time to understand what you are looking at.
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post #24 of 28 Old 10-13-2018, 02:34 PM
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get a quarterhorse or tweecer, and start really tuning

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post #25 of 28 Old 10-13-2018, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Really appreciate the replays, sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees and need a fresh pair of eyes/thoughts.
DVM tells me tps 5v ref, sig rtn grounded no voltage,and signal out is in range 0.98-4.86 and smooth sweep to wot from back of tps and back of ecm except when running.
Display confirms same symptoms. If I can get some help and video it I will.
Got some stuff coming from the US on buddies container soon so will throw in a tps for the hell of it.
Tomorrow gonna talk this through with my electrical mate and if we get a break in the weather he will run over stuff to see if I'm missing something.
Only way i can describe it in layman terms is like the signal is almost blocked/obstructed from leaving the actual tps when running, almost like it's being sucked, pulled back into the tps like a magnet and throttle movement is attempting to pull it out but loosing.
My uneducated thinking is;
3 wires
PIN 26 V Ref no issues with DVM Tps, Bp, Egr deleted. KOEO KOER Backprobe of sensors and ecm

PIN 47 Sig rtn ok no voltage present DVM, all connect up to one another, Tps, Act, Ect, Bp, with DVM. Egr deleted before I got the car 10 + years ago? Not checked clutch switch Visual ok and works as no start, start clutch in. NGS not connected as Liberty transmission has no input for this, VSS, speedo drive, backup lights. Possible issue?

PIN 46 TPS Signal wire KOEO good, KOER fighting to output voltage in relation to movement. Nothing else uses this wire, nothing else seems to be affected.
Car idles as tps is on 0.98v idle, that's about it!

Stripped injector, sensor loom last week, re wrapped and went from ends to salt n peppers, wires looked ok and passed the basic beep test.
May check that wire from other end of salt n peppers to 60 pin. Beeps out and as above and shows right volts DVM.

Ran my first and only 2 shakedown passes on motor, 10.7-127mph, didn't lean it it too hard, granny shifting for a baseline number, lack of seat time, trailered it home. A week later and 5 mile drive this #### happens out of nowhere one day when I fire it up.
Just keep wondering if I've done something stupid or missing the obvious.



Interesting to hear that quirky ecm issue you had...could I have one?

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post #26 of 28 Old 10-14-2018, 12:04 AM
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26 is 5 v ref

47 is TPS signal

46 is sig rtn, the sensor ground

your testing is flawed

redo the tests, and tell us where you actually have the leads attached and how, front or backprobe

flawed elec testing is worse than no testing, it will send you in the wrong direction

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post #27 of 28 Old 10-14-2018, 02:34 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Indy, will do.
As I said will get my buddy to run through it, has better DVM and experience.
I was using needle like electrical back probes that I bought to do this, and pins before.

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post #28 of 28 Old 10-14-2018, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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May have sorted it! Hoping it appears to be something flaky in the loom side connection to tps! Poured with rain today so talked through the problem with diagrams with my buddy who is an electrician but not auto. He thought it was isolated to the green signal line, especially after tests. Got a break with is slowing and popped the hood. With a quality meter verified v ref, grounds all spot on and good KOEO.
Said it's getting perfect 4.99 v ref, getting perfect ground, so it's got to have the issue going down that wire.
Pulled the connector, wiggled, sprayed. Fired it up, slight stumble on meter then perfect. Could not get it to go bad, left idling up to temp happy. Still no issue, turned it off, 1/2 hour later fired up tps still ok. Damn I hope this fixes it.
Looks like I couldn't see the wood for the trees, and factory it's supported by clipping by the tb, mine just hangs and is 30 years old, Again it did clear upon momentarily when I swopped it out the other week so makes sense. Next dry spell will take for a test drive.
I had that whole engine side loom out and pinned it through every wire to both salt n peppers.
So it's either still unknown or his vigorous inspection of the loom to tps socket. Totally amazed and scared to enjoy it too much.
My cheap DVM was right, but my wiggle test not vigorous enough it appears and was chasing my tail I think.
So for the time being thanks Indy for the pointers, advice and input.
Always much appreciated.
I'm no mechanic or electrician so just do what I can, so rely on reading and posting on places like the corral, especially as Foxbodys are rare over here let alone modded ones.

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