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post #1 of 20 Old 04-22-2018, 07:37 PM Thread Starter
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Electric fan current draw

1988 mustang.
Pro m efi system.
800 cca battery in trunk
130 amp alternator upgrade. Parts store 94-95

Wiring is set up like pro m recommendes
2 gauge wiring from battery to Soloniod.
2 guage from soliniod to starter
2 guage from alternator to soliniod
Braided stock ground is present
2 gauge from block to drivers side fender
Pro m is grounded on block
aeromotive fue pump relay is grounded on block.

When the fan kicks on sometimes the voltage drops to below 12 volts for a second. This causes and error on the wide band, while the voltage is below 12 volts. Sometimes it also makes the motor surge really bad.

I’m trying to figure out if I have a problem in the electrical system or if the fan motor is going out. I have a clamp meter, it’s hard to read cause it happens so fast, but I think I see 35 or 45 when ithe fan kicks on and it settles down to 16 amps.

Chris at pro m said the wiring in their system is wired to handle up to a 75 startup and like 40 continues fan draw.

I can’t find any information on the electrical data of the fan I have. I’m thinking about changing it out to a spal.

The last thing I have to check is run a load test on the electrical system. It is passes then I’m pretty sure the fan motor is shot.

Reasearching fans, it seems they are all not setup equally. I have a 195 Stat in car and fan kicks on at 205 and off at 200. This is setup by pro m. Some fans are not engineered to run in ambient temps that hot. Plus there is a cross over pipe that isn’t helping temps

Does anyone have any insight to share on what else I might check?


84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #2 of 20 Old 04-23-2018, 12:34 AM
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Mark 8 inrush is about 128amps

Settles at 25-30 amps

You say no fan make, so who knows

Before i put a soft start in, voltage would drop below 12 at idle an int fan on high

I have measured every acces on my car

There is no way the wb should drop out at 12volts

If it does, its a stupid design

Should be rated for example 7-18 volts

Nothing is designed that close to a known limit


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #3 of 20 Old 04-23-2018, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
Mark 8 inrush is about 128amps

Settles at 25-30 amps

You say no fan make, so who knows

Before i put a soft start in, voltage would drop below 12 at idle an int fan on high

I have measured every acces on my car

There is no way the wb should drop out at 12volts

If it does, its a stupid design

Should be rated for example 7-18 volts

Nothing is designed that close to a known limit
I can turn on soft-start in the ECU. I may do that. it really only happens when idling for a while (15+ minutes). When everything is good and hot.

Innovate Motorsports MXT-L and the SCG-1 both have "E9" errors for less than 12 volts. I agree should be the range you said. I have an engine run stand I use a MXT-L on with a dc power supply. While investigating how sensitive it was, 11.95v will throw the E9 error. I wonder if their merge with autometer will change things.

here is the fan I am using16 inch Cooling Fans - Champion Radiators

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #4 of 20 Old 04-23-2018, 10:55 AM
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THAT FAN IS rated at 140 w, so amp draw should be 12amps max

If you are drawing more, then there must be an air flow restriction, look up fan laws to fig that

Have you measured what is the max amp output of you alt is at idle?

I suggest you look at that

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #5 of 20 Old 04-25-2018, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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I purchased a load tester and a new clamp meterand did some testing:
I forgot to mention I am running a 1 7/8 ASP alternator pulley with a 25% crank and 15% waterpump. Full charge on the crank and water pump is listed as 850rpm my idle is 1000

listed as clamp meter on 2 gauge alternator wire, load tester on battery. I could not find a spot where clamps would fit in engine bay
car idle 20AMPS
I am able to add 80 AMPs of load before voltage on load tester goes to 12 volts. amp clamp goes up with load

idle plus fan 35AMPs
Even with soft start turned on I am seeing 45-50 AMPs on clamp for a couple seconds

Idle with lights 33AMPS-low
idle with lights 36AMPS-high

idle with AC on max 61 (this also turns on fan)

idle, ac, bright lights 78 AMPS

stealth 340 in tank pump-10AMPS (was curious)
.
I think my charging system is working ok. checking logs again I am only getting voltage drop when fan kicks on (sometimes). I setup softstart for 10 seconds and its like when the relay closes the first time. still random. it even happens at 2300 rpm

I ordered a spal 2049 fan. We will see what this does.
https://www.amazon.com/Spal-30102049.../dp/B003PB9QRO

OH found a nice clamp meter on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/stores/page/E...0clamp%20meter

load tester
https://www.harborfreight.com/500-am...ter-91129.html

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.

Last edited by mr_minnis; 04-25-2018 at 06:49 PM.
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post #6 of 20 Old 04-25-2018, 07:04 PM
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this is simple, BTW the interior fan draws a lot

you measure at the alt ouput and then measure the battery

you are at a deficit as soon as you drop below 13.5 volts

eventually you drop to battery voltage

so the point you see less than 13.5 volts at the battery, you are already at a deficit

I think I measure max 75 amp output at idle speed say 700 ish rpm

with overdrive crank and reg alt pulley.

OH and the kicker, is measure the amp draw when you step on the brake lights

that is another huge on, often overlooked, hence why I decided LED

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #7 of 20 Old 04-26-2018, 06:31 PM
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Fan motor starting current is approx 3X running current. Starting current is what's killing you.
I did many measurements on Mark VIII fan when I first got it & was using relays. Even with 3G alternator, smaller alternator pulley, etc., engine would almost die when fan kicked on. This was way before I had Megasquirt. Soft start fan controller is the best solution, with the DCC I don't even know when the fan starts if it weren't for an indicator light.

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #8 of 20 Old 05-02-2018, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Things got ridiculous:

replaced fan with a SPAL 2049. Nice fan BTW. It is not a Mark 8 but it does pretty good for what it is. needs 30 AMP fuse 2049 CFM.

Car started shutting off when fan would try to kick on sometimes. Sometimes it would surge, sometimes it would be fine, At idle. Took car on a drive, it would just shut off while cruising down the road. it would fire right back up though.

double check some things Indy said. realized that for some reason when thing were running for a bit voltage output on alternator dropped to under 14 volts.

My battery was purchased in February of 2018, I decided to replace the alternator with a powermaster 200 amp 1 wire. I wondered if the control wires going over my downpipe were causing issues when it would heat up. I spoke to powermaster about my pulley sizes and the person I spoke to said my idle rpm and my pulley ratio would still have their advertised idle amperage. Part of my decision to replace the alternator was the fact I am not sure if the parts store test will show it failing unless it is hot. If I get the car running I can spend more time getting it replaced. We also have a local guy that rebuilds them. If I can't get it replaced, I can at least get it rebuilt/upgraded.

One thing I did change Is I ran a 2 gauge ground off the alternator to the same stud the battery is grounded to the block. I thought since I am running one of the march alternator brackets and aluminum heads that it isn't the same as it was stock. I had already moved the block to fender ground wire to the block (from the timing cover).

so far voltage does not dip into 13s as it did before. I am not done testing everything yet, but hope to by this weekend.

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #9 of 20 Old 05-02-2018, 09:33 PM
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you know these cars from the factory are not tuned to handle the electric start up current

another thing know one mentions, when going to electric cars...

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #10 of 20 Old 05-03-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
...another thing know one mentions, when going to electric cars...
They must be soft started or it would damage the battery in little time.
This is standard for AC induction motors in factories. Starting to see them in home HVAC, too.
If it's variable speed, it's soft start.


1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #11 of 20 Old 05-03-2018, 07:27 PM
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part winding

star-delta

are the norm,,,,,,soft starts are there in limited quantities......but with VFD prices coming down..........

more and more are using them for ramped starts

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #12 of 20 Old 05-03-2018, 10:40 PM
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I have 2 relays to power 2-12" fans. The relays get power from the starter solenoid. They only pull about 7 amps each.

When I rewired my engine to accommodate the new setup, the output harness from the alternator had corrosion to the point where it ate half way through the wiring. My car is a 93'. I solered in beffier gauge wire. Point is to make sure all the big power drawing items have a good supply.



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post #13 of 20 Old 05-04-2018, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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This did not solve random shutting off issue. When car shuts off fuel pump will re prime within a second and car will fire back up.

Took removed alternator to parts store for testing. Said the “ripple” was out of spec. I’ll take my receipt down there tommarow and I’ll do an exchange. Prolly pay difference to “lifetime” warranty unit.

One of my vacuum gauge took a crap also. I wonder if it’s caused by same issue. It’s the map sensor portion of it that isn’t working.

Need to do research on how to test stator. I’ve had them go out before but it normally takes them longer than 1 sec to restart car.

At least there is only a few things it can be: electrical, fuel, ecu (running cnp),

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #14 of 20 Old 05-05-2018, 08:02 PM
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Alternator is root cause of everything. "Ripple out of spec" is blown alternator diode, one or more of them.

Alternator is polyphase AC generator, diodes rectify the sine waves. Ripple is the green.

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #15 of 20 Old 05-06-2018, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
Alternator is root cause of everything. "Ripple out of spec" is blown alternator diode, one or more of them.

Alternator is polyphase AC generator, diodes rectify the sine waves. Ripple is the green.
Do you think that it damaged any other electronics ? It strange how all these issues started at once (map sensor, car shutting off, etc)


I swapped in a new distributor engine is still dying. I thought maybe stator was giving up because it is shutting off when the car is up to temp.

I’m going to examine wiring and see if there is something loose. The way the fuel pump re primes immediately makes me think that the ecu is loosing power and coming back on. Or maybe fuel pump looses power and comes back on.

I’m trying to be logical on what I try. Replacing the pcm relay is something else I’ve done.

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #16 of 20 Old 05-06-2018, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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Do you think that it damaged any other electronics ?....
If you were running the engine without the battery connected.

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #17 of 20 Old 05-11-2018, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Made a bit of progress. I discovered my horn fuse was blown. Realized that the one of the Horn has a short. This has nothing to do with my problem

Did some more testing. Figured out that shutting off issue was more prevalent when using climate controls. Ordered an EVTM. Envisioned wiring from fuse box to under hood of car being damaged and shorting our.

Waiting for EVTM to be delivered investigated wiring I thought was issue and saw no damage. I started check out passenger side foot well were relays for pro m are located. Fan relay and error relay were about 20 degrees hotter than other relays. When fan relay would kick on it would click pretty loudly. I put all the relays back in fender well and within a couple minutes car shut off. Pulled relays back out and fan relay was very hot. Replaced fan relay with one from parts store. It doesn’t get near as hot now.

I ran out of time to fully test it. I can believe that the fan pig tail wiring caused some issues with over drawing the current through the relay for the fan. If this solves it I’ll be replacing the ecu relay also since it’s running warmer than others.

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #18 of 20 Old 05-15-2018, 07:07 PM
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If you're going to use relays for fans, you need them to be rated for motor loads.
Not even the MarkVIII can kill this one.
https://www.amazon.com/TE-tyco-Curre.../dp/B00OHRZ782

1988 GT, 57k mi, Orig Owner
ProCharger P600B, FRPP Headers, Flowmaster F2, 3G Alt, Mk8 Fan/DCC, 3.55's, Prog Springs, ST Brace, G/Trac Bar, Subfrms, UCA, LCA, FCA, Tokico 5-ways, C/C Plates, CSA 16x8, Bridgestone RE760 Sport 225/50R16, Megasquirt DIYPNPF60, LC2 WBO2, C&L76mm MAF w/LU47's
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post #19 of 20 Old 05-15-2018, 09:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blown88GT View Post
If you're going to use relays for fans, you need them to be rated for motor loads.
Not even the MarkVIII can kill this one.
https://www.amazon.com/TE-tyco-Curre.../dp/B00OHRZ782
I’ve used that relay at work before. It is tough. The relay for the fan on the pro m system is different. I don’t know the correct terminalogy for it but “power relay” found the correct terminal orientation. It’s 4 terminals and 2 are larger than normal. At first glance it looks like a normal relay but it is not.

I decided to trust what pro m had used originally and ordered the same ones from digikey. I figured they know what they are doing if I have issues I will contact Chris. They have 30 amp tyco relays and a panosonic 70 amp relay for the fan. New relays will be here Thursday.

I did go ahead and temp replace the ecu relay with a Bosch 30 amp I had at work. At this point all are new except for the ac cutout.

It is running fine. EVTM came in. Have not read though it yet

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-18-2018, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Ok issue solved. (So far)

I ordered a replacement map sensor for my mxl - boost vacuum gauge. It’s working

Replaced all relays. When I put them back in passenger side corner car started shutting off. Fan was not kicking on. Ecu must have a safety sense sort to shut it of if ecu reaches 220.

I activated cool shutdown in ecu. It will run fan till 170 with out engine running And ac on. Makes easier to hear fan. Moved around wires on fan relay and fan would shut off.

Isolated to high current wire going into relay. The connector wasn’t installed well. More than likely from ron Francis. Re crimped and soldiered wire to connector. Reinstalled relay and shook wires... no problem with fan staying running. Re installed wires into fender well. Car did not die and cooling fan activated.

Will test over next few days but I think this is licked.

I really wish I would have had a digital temp guage and volt meter guage during this. I could have logged and saw what was up way sooner. Maybe a Florida 5.0 is in my future.

84K 88 LX Vert 5spd: 3.73s.
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