Codes 212 and 412. Got a short to ground and can't find it! - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Codes 212 and 412. Got a short to ground and can't find it!

Well, here's my first post and I wish it was something less difficult, but it ain't. Hopefully you guys and gals can help though. Here's a general summary of what's going on. In diagnosing the 212 code (which could be throwing my 412 code too) I found ground on the "RUN" pin of the ignition module. It, of course, follows to the coil and PIP in the distributor. Really the entire red/light green wire has continuity to ground. Standard debugging 101, I started unplugged connectors, and I've isolated it between the small connector behind the passenger airbag, and the bottom connector of the main break out under the hood.

(I tried to post some pics here, but the forum won't let me.)

I've removed the airbag and glove box so far, but I still can't quite trace where this wire pack goes. Do I need to pull the Fender? The blower motor? I'm lost. Thanks in advance for some help!

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post #2 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Guess I should've specified this is a 1995 Mustang GT with stock wiring since I can't attach pics.

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post #3 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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Okay, I've got the wiring pretty exposed and disconnected every harness I can find. Ground is actually at the fuse block. If I test the hot side of fuse #18, the one that feeds the IGM, I see ground with the key off. KOEO and I see 12v. Maybe I'm over my head here, but shouldn't that voltage either be 12v or no volts? Not 12v or ground? I've never seen a hot lead go to ground with the key off.
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post #4 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 07:22 PM
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you need to know most inductive loads and all resistive have to have a path to ground

cont or ohm test is useless and you have shown it can lead you down the wrong path

shall we start over
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post #5 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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No we shall not start over. I'm asking for help and your condescending reply is the opposite of that, but I guess that's the wonderful thing about internet. Makes me really wanna stick around this forum, lemme tell you!

I'm simply asking if I should see a pretty direct path (low impedance) to ground from the fuse block on fuse 18. I'm fairly familiar with electrical theory and I'm using a pretty decent Fluke meter. What I am not familiar with is the wiring in this car, thus me being here, humbling myself, and asking questions. But hey, I'm the a**hole, right?
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post #6 of 17 Old 05-22-2017, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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Also, since you seem to know it all, am I down the wrong path? What *should* I be looking at for a 212 code? 212 says, "Loss of ignition diagnostic monitor signal/SPOUT circuit grounded," so I've been looking for ground faults in the ignition circuit. I checked the SPOUT from end to end with no ground. I'm only seeing ground from the red/lt green wire which should be the ignition RUN signal to the ignition circuit. But you obviously already knew that .
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post #7 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockandrollfrankie View Post
No we shall not start over. I'm asking for help and your condescending reply is the opposite of that, but I guess that's the wonderful thing about internet. Makes me really wanna stick around this forum, lemme tell you!

I'm simply asking if I should see a pretty direct path (low impedance) to ground from the fuse block on fuse 18. I'm fairly familiar with electrical theory and I'm using a pretty decent Fluke meter. What I am not familiar with is the wiring in this car, thus me being here, humbling myself, and asking questions. But hey, I'm the a**hole, right?
so we shall start over, thank you

with your ohm meter

check continuity through a motor, a heater, a resistor etc, what do you find?

so, like I said, put the ohm/cont meter away, we are going to check voltages of ENERGIZED circuits, when CURRENT is flowing.

Being familiar with car wiring is IRRELEVANT, understanding electricity and simple circuits is relevant. a wiring diagram is all you need for your circuits.,

I just gave you the best advice you could get, regarding the ohm meter, ??

So, just to be clear, if you ohm any circuit to ground you will find cont, if there is NO open, like a switch, has to be, cannot be any other way....clear?

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post #8 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 02:00 AM
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Indy2000 reminds me of George Carlin .
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post #9 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by ashleyroachclip View Post
Indy2000 reminds me of George Carlin .
I tried to point out to the poster, their method was flawed and going in the wrong direction, somehow poster got butthurt and defensive, instead of just trying follow along and diagnose

then as always, the name calling, that is usually their last ditch effort

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post #10 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 10:30 AM
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I was pointing out , that you have a wealth of knowledge, and a dry Sence of humor , which I find to be hard to find these days .
No but hurt from here .

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post #11 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Well, according to the diagram, I am not testing through a motor, resistor, or anything. I have the fuse out of the block, so I'm just testing flow from the ignition switch as far as I can tell. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in school, but a switch in the off position shouldn't have any flow, ground or otherwise. I've also never had a car shunt to ground at the fuse block when the key was off, so once again, is this normal behavior or not? You can't lead me to believe every mechanic has a BS in EE. Also, I'm not even a mechanic, I'm a computer engineer that enjoys cars with an old Mustang that's sentimental to me that I'd like to get running properly. I don't understand the general resistance to my question.

Maybe I should reapproach the question. Can anybody tell me the common reasons a car would throw a 212 code? Afterall I am on "THE Late Model Mustang Site" aren't I?
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post #12 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashleyroachclip View Post
I was pointing out , that you have a wealth of knowledge, and a dry Sence of humor , which I find to be hard to find these days .
No but hurt from here .
I love that guys stand up stuff!

RIP George


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post #13 of 17 Old 05-23-2017, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockandrollfrankie View Post
Well, according to the diagram, I am not testing through a motor, resistor, or anything. I have the fuse out of the block, so I'm just testing flow from the ignition switch as far as I can tell. Maybe I wasn't paying attention in school, but a switch in the off position shouldn't have any flow, ground or otherwise. I've also never had a car shunt to ground at the fuse block when the key was off, so once again, is this normal behavior or not? You can't lead me to believe every mechanic has a BS in EE. Also, I'm not even a mechanic, I'm a computer engineer that enjoys cars with an old Mustang that's sentimental to me that I'd like to get running properly. I don't understand the general resistance to my question.

Maybe I should reapproach the question. Can anybody tell me the common reasons a car would throw a 212 code? Afterall I am on "THE Late Model Mustang Site" aren't I?
lets see this diagram?

Oh, and auto techs these days, do need BS in EE or they fall to the waste side

it took EE, to design these cars, is it a leap of faith to suggest EE is needed to diagnose

you know most diag shops charge flat rate for a diag, usually an hour, and can do 4 cars in an hour

tools, and understanding of circuit design

You are confused of the code 212, I can see how, but rest assured that code is NOT for DIYers................unless someone that knows how it works tells all


the ecm monitor looks for High or LOW, Boolean logic,,,,remember

compares that bit to the expected bit, when IFelse, then flags. and CEL.

you read said code, and are looking for only a short

can be open, anything that makes LOW voltage when it should be HIGH

that is the monitors purpose.

so show us the diagram you are using?

the transistor inside the ICM must have a ground, PNP, or NPN collector/emitter

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post #14 of 17 Old 05-24-2017, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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I'm pulling the diagrams from veryuseful.com. I actually found this:

https://www.2carpros.com/questions/f...212-how-to-fix

So I am going to try that guy's procedure. No, this may not be for a DIY'er, but hell, how's a guy supposed to learn? I'm confident I have the brain and physical means in which to diagnose/repair this, but I'm coming from carbureted vehicles. This early year EFI is probably the worst thing for someone unfamiliar with EFI to jump into, but here I am. Really just trying to get my late momma's car running right again after some years of neglect. If ya don't wanna help because you're a paid mechanic, well, I can totally respect that. I'm a computer engineer and wouldn't fix someone's major computer problem over the internet for free. I also just wouldn't reply though.

So far the best help I've been offered is an LS swap. My buddy who owns a GM shop in town said he'll gladly ditch this 302 for an LS for me. It's tempting, but I'd really like to get this car running properly on the stock motor for nostalgia sake.
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post #15 of 17 Old 05-24-2017, 09:58 PM
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what about what I typed?

telling us you are a comp eng and you wouldn't reply is useless

I am trying to help

you want to know from your diagram, why you have cont to ground?

give me that diagram, I will ask you why you think you should see it

LS swap, go ahead and give up, like the LS swap won't have those issues.....really?

So again, give me the diagram, and then we can start diagnosing.

that 'angies' help bs you linked is a flow chart from ford, its totally useless..okay

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post #16 of 17 Old 05-25-2017, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Oh Jesus Christ, man! Here's the damn link since typing the URL must've been too difficult:

Mustang FAQ - Wiring & Engine Info

I don't think I should have ground because I'm testing from the 12v feed from the key and catching low impedance to ground. Shouldn't the key break the circuit entirely when it's off? I've asked 3 times now. Do you have some pages from the service manual that you can post here with troubleshooting steps since what I'm finding is BS? Your definition of "Help" seems to be very different from mine (and most people).

In all my years of owning cars I've honestly never seen such bad attitudes when asking for help! Is this how Mustang owners are? If I LS swapped it, I'd at least be able to ask a friend for help since he knows Chevrolet motors in and out. Plus then I could deal with the GM guys, who are seemingly much more helpful than Mustang folks. This is insanity!

Indy 2000, what would you have me do? Take this thing to a shop and drop $1500? I don't have that kinda scratch to drop right now, and if I did I wouldn't be spending it to fix a 218hp turd of a motor. What I do have are tools, 2 hands, and plenty of time to work on this car. So if you wanna help, cool, if you wanna keep berating me you might as well go post somewhere else.
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post #17 of 17 Old 05-26-2017, 02:41 AM
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you linked the entire site, with many diagrams


stop whining, and link the diagram you are using, copy and paste!

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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