1964 1/2 heater motor issue - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 34 Old 01-30-2017, 11:17 AM Thread Starter
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1964 1/2 heater motor issue

After 30 years I tracked down the car I had in high school and am now restoring it. The latest issue is the heater blower motor. Someone had replaced the original 3 wire motor with a 2 wire. It did work, but of course only had one speed. I pulled the heater box, replaced the core, put in the correct 3 wire motor from C J Pony, resealed the case, and reinstalled. When I tried it, it blew the fuse. Thinking maybe I had a clearance issue with the squirrel cage, I pulled it back out. It's fine, no clearance issues. I had tested the motor on the bench with a battery before I put it in the car, and it worked fine on both low and high speeds. After mounting it back in the car, but before I connected the wiring, I put in a new fuse and checked for 12 volts at the firewall red and orange connectors. With the blower switch on low I got 12 volts on one wire, and with the switch on high I got 12 volts on the other wire. So I reconnected the wires and tried it again. Blew the fuse. Next I went back to basics. With the heater box still in the car, I eliminated everything and used jumper wires to go directly from the motor to the battery. Black wire to negative, red or orange to positive. Nothing. Then I got a second battery, set it on the fender, hooked it up the same way. Motor runs fine on both low and high speeds. After scratching my head, I went back to the car battery, and yes the car does start and run fine with that battery. I disconnected the positive battery lead and tried the jumpers again. Nothing. I put the positive lead back on and disconnected the negative lead. Motor runs fine on low and high speeds. What's going on?

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post #2 of 34 Old 01-30-2017, 09:54 PM
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what are the 3 wires?

is there a short in one of the 3 wires, and that is why someone put a 2 wire on?


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #3 of 34 Old 01-30-2017, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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1964 1/2 and 1965 Mustangs have 3 wire heater motors. One is ground, and the other two are low and high speed. The motor has two different windings. In 1966 they went to a resistor style of switch to control the two different speeds, so that motor only has a single winding with just a ground and hot wire. (known as a two wire motor).
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-30-2017, 11:47 PM
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2 positive and 1 ground

now answer the second question

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post #5 of 34 Old 01-31-2017, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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No shorts in the wires. As I said in the first post voltages read normal. Can't say why someone else did what they did.
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-31-2017, 05:13 PM
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I am telling you why someone did what they did, cause they ran into the same situation, and could not diagnose it

In order to blow a fuse,

THERE IS A SHORT

OR

THE motor is drawing too much current, you tested,

Was the current the motor was pulling higher than the fuse, you need to measure current.

no other possibility

So now that we have established there is short, or overcurrent, and your tests were not adequate into finding it, tell me exactly how you checked for voltage, where the leads went exactly.

and I will show you, that your process to diagnose was a little off.

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post #7 of 34 Old 01-31-2017, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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Wiring for the blower motor is about as simple as it gets. From the fuse block to the switch. The switch has three positions, high,off, and low in that order. From the switch through the firewall with the low and high speed wires direct to the motor. I measured 12 volts at each of the two wires as I moved the switch from high to low. Today I had the same thought about the amp draw of the new motor as you did. I tested it again with the jumpers direct to the battery, but put a 14 amp fuse in line. It ran fine and did not blow the fuse. What doesn't make sense is that the 2 wire motor was working, but just at the one speed using the same wiring. Of course only one of the switch positions made it run.
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post #8 of 34 Old 01-31-2017, 11:20 PM
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are you ready?

or do you want to keep telling me how easy this is, yet it keeps blowing fuses?

when you measure voltage at a end of a wire that is only 1/3 of the circuit.

there is NO current flowing, therefore no fuse will blow, with 0 amps flowing

hook a test light to battery positive

then touch the ground wire leaving the motor.

what happens?

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post #9 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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Battery connected, new fuse, wires from heater switch to heater motor disconnected, key off, heater switch off.

Positive battery post to heater motor ground............................................ .....................test light on.
Positive battery post to either heater wire from heater switch..........................................te st light off.



Key on, heater switch moved to either Low or High.

Positive battery post to either heater wire from switch............................................ .......test light off.
Negative battery post to either heater wire from switch............................................ ......test light on.



Key off, heater switch moved to either Low or High.

Negative post to either heater wire from switch............................................ .................test light off.



Key on or off.

Positive battery post to any of the 3 heater motor wires............................................. .....test light on.


That last one doesn't look right to me. New motor bad?
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post #10 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 07:45 PM
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in your last test, are the wires off the motor not connected to anything?


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post #11 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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That is correct. The two positive motor wires are not connected to anything. The ground is connected to battery negative.
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post #12 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 08:16 PM
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I meant all three, including the ground.

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post #13 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Are you asking me another question? In the last test the motor ground is connected to the battery negative. Neither Low or High speed leads are connected to anything. The test light is from the battery positive to any of the three wires. Result is the same for all. Light is on.
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post #14 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 09:48 PM
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disconnect the wire going to battery negative repeat test.

dc, brushed motors, will always do what you got.

that is how it the motor goes round and round.

so remove ALL, wires and redo.

then we will move onto the next test.

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post #15 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, not sure which test you want me to redo. The only wire connected to anything now is the ground wire to the battery. You want me to disconnect that ground from the battery and then check what? If the battery is disconnected from the motor there will be nothing to power the test light. Please clarify.
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post #16 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 10:53 PM
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is the motor mounted in the car or not?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #17 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Yes. It is in the heater box, and mounted in the car as it will be in it's final position.
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post #18 of 34 Old 02-01-2017, 11:29 PM
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disconnect the ground wire and retest, then

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post #19 of 34 Old 02-02-2017, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, I see now. The motor still gets a ground through the mounting bolts. Removed the ground wire from motor to battery. All results remain the same.
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post #20 of 34 Old 02-02-2017, 06:04 PM
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and is the light as bright as without the motor?

ie 2 loads in series will cause a voltage drop across each load.

now I have no idea if the motor should be grounded through mounts, but I think not.

therefore, we have shown

looking at wires will not always reveal a short

you actually have to test the invisible electrons.

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post #21 of 34 Old 02-03-2017, 12:02 AM Thread Starter
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The light looks the same to me. If there is any difference it's not noticeable.
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post #22 of 34 Old 02-03-2017, 05:24 PM
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that should indicate that the motor is not acting as a load like it should

did you try to power both windings at the same time?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #23 of 34 Old 02-03-2017, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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There is no difference with the test light from one winding or both at the same time. It's just as bright with one as two. Over the weekend I intend to disconnect all fuses, wiring, etc. not related to the heater circuit and try to find the problem. The clue is that the motor will not run from jumpers to the battery as long as the ground lead is connected to the battery, but will run when that ground lead is disconnected.
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post #24 of 34 Old 02-03-2017, 09:01 PM
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we are getting to finding the problem, the problem is you are jumping everywhere and not answering the questions I ask

I am asking them, for you to learn how to use a meter and test light

telling me no difference in test light from one winding to the other, is useless info.

I don't care about that, I'm asking in a systematic manner for a reason.

I know where the short is, but its better to go through the process.

you do not see it that way

im out, good luck.

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post #25 of 34 Old 02-03-2017, 11:09 PM
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Is your test light an incandescent bulb or is it a logic probe? If it is an incandescent bulb it should be brightest from b+ to ground wire, less bright from b+ to high speed terminal of motor, and even less bright from b+ to low speed winding. Maybe tough to tell. However if your test light has logic circuits the light will be all the same intensity. If fuse doesn't blow with motor disconnected and your voltage reading above is accurate your switch and wiring is likely good. Seems to me one or both of your windings is shorted to ground despite it running when you use your jumpers. I wouldn't jumper it any more without circuit protection. The short could get worse and even cause an issue at the battery. So with a possible short in the motor you are decreasing the resistance and increasing the amperage, which is more than the rating of the fuse. Can you get specs on the windings and apply ohms law? Maybe the windings are meant to be case grounded but we're not wound correctly. Unlikely though.

I wouldn't take any offense from Indys "I'm out" comment. His ability is keen and intentions are typically good, it's just the delivery that completely sucks. I should rephrase that. It should have read "the delivery sometimes stinks".
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post #26 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 09:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks vertvert. No matter where I connect the test light the intensity doesn't change. If it comes on at all it's always just as bright in one place as another. I think it's just an incandescent light. Not sure how much of these posts you've read, but the old heater motor was working, it was just not the correct motor, and only ran at one speed. That along with all the other testing I've done leads me to believe my wiring is fine. The only thing I've done is replace that motor. The fact that it seems to run fine from a separate battery is what throws me, and I did run it through the correct 14 amp fuse. I'll contact CJ Pony Monday and see if I can get manufacturer information on the motor. It makes sense that the motor may be bad, but odd that it runs separate from the circuit.

As far as Indy is concerned, I've dealt with condescending ###### like him before. The only reason I put up with his bs is because he was the only one who answered the post. I came here because I thought this was a forum for help, not to play games. His last question was if I had tried the test light with both motor windings at the same time. So I did and told him the results,.....and he said that was useless information. Life is too short to have to put up with people like that.
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post #27 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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And just like that 30 minutes after reading your post that made me go back and look at that new motor,....my problem is solved. Although I had thought about it before, I got sidetracked by someone else's bad information. All I had to do was get yet another motor and try it. Works fine. As I had already stated, my wiring was good with no shorts. I was just too willing to accept that the new motor was good because it was new. And I knew better! I run into that in other applications.

Thank you vertvert!!
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post #28 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim427 View Post
And just like that 30 minutes after reading your post that made me go back and look at that new motor,....my problem is solved. Although I had thought about it before, I got sidetracked by someone else's bad information. All I had to do was get yet another motor and try it. Works fine. As I had already stated, my wiring was good with no shorts. I was just too willing to accept that the new motor was good because it was new. And I knew better! I run into that in other applications.

Thank you vertvert!!
Fantastic! You've got both speed right?
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post #29 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Yes sir, ...both speeds just like it's supposed to be. On to the next hurdle.
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post #30 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 09:47 PM
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I deal with your type all the time

Facts

the 2 wire motor is 2 SPEEDS

the 3 wire motor is 2 SPEEDS

the switch's and its flow of power, ground or power side switched, are different

someone, maybe, used a 2 wire motor with a appropriate switch, and appropriate path of power.......made a 2 motor work in an original 3 wire setup.....if there was only one speed, you diagnosed it wrongly, a resistor may have been open

never the less, you came in and swapped motors, without that consideration, hence the ground was in the wrong spot

I offered a chance for you to be able to diagnose it, but you rather change a part that you had installed incorrectly.

so now come clean, you got another 3 wire motor, what else did you do to make it work?

cause I know, if you installed the second motor the same as the first, without a rewire, you would have the same outcome, motor no worky.

???

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post #31 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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You may bluff your way past others, but it's obvious you're one of those folks who like to hear themselves talk, and want everyone to think you're smarter than you really are. The facts are that someone else installed the wrong motor in this car probably because it simply fit or they just didn't know any better. The switch is stock and correct for this car. I just put it back original with the correct type motor. It was just defective. I found another correct but old 3 wire motor to try and it worked perfectly. I will get another new motor and that job will be complete. There is now and never was a short.

I'm out. Good luck.
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post #32 of 34 Old 02-04-2017, 11:51 PM
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the magical blown fuse.............HAHA

the first in history, to blow a fuse without a short and functional load.....please tell the secret???

the first motor is was not defective, you proved it yourself POST#1, straight to battery power, or was that a lie??

mint, thought you run out, when called out

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post #33 of 34 Old 02-05-2017, 08:24 AM
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mint, thought you run out, when called out
Wasn't it you who ran out first? Didn't you leave this guy hanging because he didn't address you as "your highness"?

Listen Indy it's quite obvious you have tons of troubleshooting experience. It is also clear you are some type of bitter that you don't get the recognition you feel you deserve. Trust me, I read everyone of your posts. Without your technical additions, this forum would be much less interesting. However you need to work on your people skills.

It would be a double edged sword to have someone like you working for me. I'd like the service but I wouldn't let you anywhere near the customers.

Sort of like sloth from goonies, hidden in the basement but brought out for the muscle. Then quickly shuffled back into the shadows.

Maybe you have a daddy issue. You prob would make a better run away stripper as they act just like you.
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post #34 of 34 Old 02-05-2017, 11:28 AM
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Okay, Dr.PHIL

Hey yOU...........Guuuuuuuuuuuuyyssssss!

Love that movie.

As far as your opinion, its nice to have one.

And as far as me being out........it was regarding any elec help, as the poster clearly had it under control

back to the topic.

and now that, a new motor was the 'fix',

one must question that validity, anybody finding this post trying to do the same will run into the wall again and again without this thread corrected.

This motor problem is very common, due to wiring and control differences in from 64.5 to 65

A little work in finding the elec diagrams, and following the circuit design would see that.

so wait for jim427's.....response.

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