Not another no start issue.... - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 04-12-2016, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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Not another no start issue....

Hey guys,

Been keeping the 89 over at my parents place, but they got a new car so my car got booted outside, its been under a cover for a week or two now. Ran when i put it outside, now it doesn't. Heres the deal:

First things first i went to start it up today and it had a completely dead battery. 6 Volts, had to have it charged back up, and held a charge just fine. I think this may be a key into the problem im having, just not sure yet.

So after the battery is charged, i hook it up and go to start it, and notice the fuel pump does NOT prime. i disconnected the relay and jumped the connection and the fuel pump works fine. so with the fuel pump running continuously i attempted to start it up. it cranked but would not start...

So far i haven't gone through ANY electrical troubleshooting except i found my EEC ground on the inner fender was loose and tightened that up. still no help, i can hear the EEC relay click on when i turn the key over. also checked the Inertia switch and pressed the dummy button on it. Exactly what does control the priming of the fuel pump? just the EEC itself?

When cranking, my check engine light stays lit. i read somewhere that it points to my distributor being the problem. With it being outside now, i wonder if moisture from the rain we have been having has gotten to the distributor components and toasted them. Still doesn't explain the dead battery.

Took the coil wire off the coil and let it sit on top, saw nor heard any arcing of spark against the coil. what should be my first plan of attack here?


89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #2 of 17 Old 04-12-2016, 11:16 PM Thread Starter
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is there any system in the car that ties the presence of spark, and the priming and running of the fuel pump together? Possibly the ignition switch?

maybe a short within the ignition switch caused my battery to die as well as frying the switch itself. whats the best way to test proper ignition switch operation?


89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-12-2016, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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best guess is a bad TFI module or something inside the distributor. if i recall correctly with key on engine off, if i turn the distributor at any time i should hear the fuel pump prime again. so the fact that those systems are directly related and both are not working tells me something in the distributor is bad, wether it be the PIP or TFI i don't know. i suppose i can troubleshoot the harness to make sure im getting 12V at the correct times and eliminate my ignition switch or any wiring up to the distributor from the equation.



( I realize nobody has posted other than me on this thread lol, but this issue is literally keeping me up brainstorming every possibility. so annoying)

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #4 of 17 Old 04-13-2016, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
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Update for anyone checking in on this: Had parts store check my TFI module, everything seemed to check out fine. (i also did some resistance testing of my own today at work)

so here is a check list of the things i did to pinpoint my issue.

with key in run position:

Checked positive side of starter relay. Voltage present.

Checked for power to red/green wire at coil. voltage present.

This eliminates possibility of a bad ignition switch, EEC Relay, EEC, all that good stuff.

Checked for voltage at "Run" wire on TFI module. Voltage present.

Checked for voltage at "PIP" wire on TFI module. Voltage present.


While cranking:

Solid noid light- no blinking at "PIP" wire on TFI module, or on an individual injector. Determination is PIP is bad not sending signal to pulse injectors.

To confirm, i jumpered the fuel pump through the test port to ground with relay connected, fuel pump cycled.



My question is, the PIP wire is not supposed to give constant battery voltage while it is in the run position, before cranking... am i correct?

If i am, this would indicate a short in that circuit, which the ECM can see, and therefore stops the fuel pump from priming...

hopefully someone can verify with me.

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #5 of 17 Old 04-13-2016, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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another interesting thing i noticed and just found out. my car is NOT pulling codes. i jumered the test port to the EEC Trigger port, and im not getting any CEL flashing... i do have a SCT chip on there, so i removed it and tried again, not getting anything. i did however see a little red light on the SCT chip blink when turning the key so i still think voltage is getting through the computer.

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #6 of 17 Old 04-14-2016, 01:03 AM
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do you know what you are looking for?

you posted you found voltage? what voltage?

What are you missing in crank? spark? fuel?

to see PIP signal you need a O-scope.

or if you understand the 0-10v square wave, you should have 4-5volts in crank as a reg meter is not fast enough, and you see the average

just cause you have a PIP at the dist, does not mean you have it at ecm

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-15-2016, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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Well after doing more digging i found my EEC relay was FILLED with water. so this can't mean anything good for the rest of the system.

I replaced the relay, and now when i turn the key i hear the fuel pump prime. i did a test to see if i had spark by turning the distributor with the key on... as the distributor turns the fuel pump should prime again and a spark should jump from the coil... but that did not happen at all.

All the voltages i listed as present are with the use of a test light, did not know exact values just that it's there.


Only other problem im finding is that when i try and pull codes using the jumper wire and watching the check engine light, when i turn the key the fuel pump primes, then the light goes out and the pump primes again, but nothing happens after that. So im starting to wonder if its a possible EEC issue as well... with the water in the relay im starting to think its a possibility

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-15-2016, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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im about to go rent a noid light to make sure i have injector pulse... im thinking i do because when cranking i can smell the fuel in the exhaust pipes.... but still not getting spark and im really thinking the EEC could be bad. its an orielly's reman with an SCT chip


All i know is something happened and drained the battery originally, and with a relay full of water who knows what kinds of funky stuff was happening causing the battery to die. probably just sending voltage to the computer all the time

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-15-2016, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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So i re checked my method of testing the computer. i was jumpering the wrong wire on the test connector and not jumpering the STI to ground. so now the computer pulls codes. all im getting is EGR and canister purge codes.... Not even any codes for the SPOUT and i have the jumper out...


this is starting to get pretty strange

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-15-2016, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Well i feel as if i have been going about this all wrong... there was two clues that led me to my conclusion, but im going with a bad pickup in the distributor. first clue was that when i had the dizzy loose, rotating it with the key on should cause the fuel pump to prime every time the pickup senses another tooth in the reluctor ring. that did not happen.

to confirm this, i went and rented a noid light set from autozone. after checking the light to make sure it had continuity through the bulb, i hooked it up to # 5 injector pigtail. when cranking the engine, i saw no light blinking. i backprobed the injector wire to make sure i had voltage there, and that checked out. so all in all the PIP is bad... which i figured the rain we were having the past week followed by the sudden 20 degree day and snow killed it. gotta love Michigan weather... and to think its in the 70's this upcoming week.

My new dizzy will be in tomorrow morning. and if for some god forsaken reason my issue still isn't resolved, i will report back with more findings.

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post #11 of 17 Old 04-15-2016, 09:35 PM
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your testing is flawed

I told you what and how to test, yet you still insist, from your results, that a component is bad when it could be good.

so, you replace parts and let us know.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #12 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 12:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
your testing is flawed

I told you what and how to test, yet you still insist, from your results, that a component is bad when it could be good.

so, you replace parts and let us know.

There is nothing wrong with my testing method... using a noid light to see injector pulse is just as good as using an O-scope. to say that an o scope is the ONLY correct way of testing the system is just ridiculous. There's plenty of write ups on the web of how to check ICM and PIP function using just an LED and a couple wires....
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post #13 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 12:20 PM Thread Starter
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as well as the fact your not even acknowledging my other findings that point directly to the pickup not sensing the reluctor teeth in the distributor.

89 Fox Hatch. 5sp conversion, TFS stage 1, TFS track heat, Ford racing GT40X heads, Scorpion 1.6, Pro Products 70MM, Pro M MAF 24#.
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post #14 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamFoxBody View Post
as well as the fact your not even acknowledging my other findings that point directly to the pickup not sensing the reluctor teeth in the distributor.
I read through your direction with all your posts, and that is flawed, nothing about a noid light was referenced

In fact you could have just used your test light, and saved your money with the noid light, it was a waste......

but the fact that you didn't know that, only reinforces that you do not know what to look for.

volt meter and test light....30 mins..........and you will know if it is a component or wiring.

99% of ALL electrical issues is THE WIRING.

I tried to help, I asked you specific questions,,,,,,,, and nothing.

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post #15 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamFoxBody View Post
as well as the fact your not even acknowledging my other findings that point directly to the pickup not sensing the reluctor teeth in the distributor.
sensing the reluctor wheel?? What??

its a hall effect sensor,,,,,,,,,,,10volt supply

0-10volt digital signal..............nothing to SENSE.

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post #16 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
sensing the reluctor wheel?? What??

its a hall effect sensor,,,,,,,,,,,10volt supply

0-10volt digital signal..............nothing to SENSE.

you contradicted yourself there... a SENSOR does indeed SENSE the reluctor as it turns. Trust me, i know how a hall effect sensor operates.


well i got my new distributor anyway, and regardless of your opinion on my "flawed" troubleshooting method... my car is now running.

it is breaking up at 2k RPMs now and the tach is all over the place when it does that, but just goes to show you just because its not done a way you might do it, doesn't mean it isn't correct.
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post #17 of 17 Old 04-16-2016, 03:54 PM
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if you knew how it worked, you would have measured a voltage, you didn't

whatever caused it not to start, is still causing not to run,,,,,,,,,should be only a matter of time that the new dist follows the old, hope you bought a few......

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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