Hard Block Cement - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 06-09-2007, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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Question Hard Block Cement

I'm trying to figure out the cheapest way for my TT set up for next year. I have 3 1968 302 Blocks, I would really like to have the New Boss Block or a Dart, but money is the issue. I have seen alot of people making insane HP and Torque using production blocks with the Hard Block cement, Steel Main Girdle and a Valley Girdle. Right now I don't know which way to go. I know production blocks have their limits, but this will be in a weekend car that see's the street very little and mostly an 1/8 mile car and few qtr mile passes every now and they. For those of you have had any experience with Hard Block let me know what you have seen and the pro's and con's of it would be.

Rusty


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post #2 of 26 Old 06-16-2007, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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So nobody has used this stuff? I know someone has had to have seen someone use and "IF" is helped hold the block together.


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post #3 of 26 Old 06-16-2007, 07:18 PM
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I have only used the block fill in 351c blocks. They are famous for thin cylinder walls. My car is a track only car with program enginering 4 bolt billet main caps. it allows me to run a .060 everbore . you could never do that with out it. Basically it allows me a .030, .040.and an .060 overbore on the same block, four bolt blocks being somewhat scarce these days. I make about 750hp NA . run methanol. have run it on gas and living in sw florida it gets plenty hot. on gas i've seen water temps as high as 240. on methanol they stay around 180-190. seeems to hold oil temp better once I get it warmed up. your biggest problem is really in splitting the main webs and i don't think the filler will help you there. I don't see where the girdle will help much. i think they are more for cap walk. If your going to spend a bunch of money on heads and turbos etc, I would try and find a pre 72 block or go with a aftermarket block. jmo good luck
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-16-2007, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the helpful info and the reply, I have 3 1968 302 blocks in good condition. I'm wondering how they will hold up with a "Short Fill" in the water jackets, steel girdle machined caps and the valley girdle? This is pretty much a weeked car and limted track time as well in the local 1/8th mile.

Rusty

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post #5 of 26 Old 06-16-2007, 11:47 PM
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I have a .040 over 69 351W block hard blocked half way up. It gets a little warm in traffic when it's 90 degrees +. I drove the car to a cruise in today about 10-15 miles from my house and the temp was right at 205. my engine it 12.3.1 comp. and runs 10.60 @ 129 "On Motor so far, Haven't sprayed it yet" so it's not completly mild. I have a summit radiator, a csr electric water pump and a mark VIII fan.

Hope this helps

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post #6 of 26 Old 06-16-2007, 11:50 PM
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oh yeah I also have a trans cooler than I have -10an lines ran to with a oil filter relocation kit. I use this as an engine oil cooler with a small fan in front of the radiator. works pretty well

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post #7 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 08:42 AM
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I have my 71 Mexican(302) block 1/2 filled with a main studs, Girdle and Billet main caps. I don't have overheating issues but my car is a track only car( No street duty) and i run an electric waterpump.
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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So by using the hard block, main girdle, valley girdle and main studs I "might" be ok as far as the block holding up. Should I go with billet mani caps as well? Thanks for the helpful info and the replies.

Rusty

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post #9 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 12:50 PM
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You could probably sell those vintage blocks and have almost enough for a good aftermarket block.

~Performance White 2013 GT M6
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukkoi18 View Post
You could probably sell those vintage blocks and have almost enough for a good aftermarket block.
Yeah that is true, I haven't thought about that, I might as well go a head a carry all of them to the machine shop and have them hot tanked, magna fluxed etc. I might as well do that I have 7 302 blocks all together.

Rusty


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post #11 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 03:43 PM
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My last motor was half filled, I won't do it to the next one if I stay with a production block. The car would sit at 205-210 in traffic, and that's too hot for my liking.

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post #12 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 04:21 PM
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I know you're not changing plans. I thought your car was almost done??
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post #13 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 04:37 PM Thread Starter
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All I need to finish is the exhaust from the turbos back to the off road x pipe. I should be finished with the manual brake conversion today. I got the upper and lower intakes on finally. I paln on staying with TT's for a long time to come. How is yours coing along?

Rusty

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post #14 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 05:33 PM
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I thought I saw someone selling a boss 302(original) around here for $400 or $500. Do a search.

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post #15 of 26 Old 06-17-2007, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the heads up!

Rusty

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post #16 of 26 Old 06-19-2007, 01:07 PM
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there is no problem filling the early stock blocks to halfway up or even a little further up.

the "valley girdle" is useless and a piece of QUAP....

also, in an EARLY BLOCK, there is no need for a main girdle, just have a machinist "bottom tap" the threads in block and check overall thread engagement on a set of ARP main studs, and then do a proper "line hone" of the main saddles,...for proper bearing seating and fit,.....
.usually, when any block filler is used, the bores do in fact get "squeezed" a bit, and so a proper and EXACT rigid hone ( sunnen method) is needed or else you can in fact have a tight piston and it will sieze up when ran hard....

when having poured in the powder, you hasve to wait three or four days to allow it to harden properly,...
and then hone, etc...

but then you must WASH it very, very well, and clean out all the oil passages and such otherewize there will be a catastrophy in your oil system later...!!!!!

read the directions that come in the box of block filler powder... they tell of these things and other stuff in detail....

and that is about it....
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post #17 of 26 Old 06-19-2007, 01:13 PM
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.usually, when any block filler is used, the bores do in fact get "squeezed" a bit, and so a proper and EXACT rigid hone ( sunnen method) is needed or else you can in fact have a tight piston and it will sieze up when ran hard....

when having poured in the powder, you hasve to wait three or four days to allow it to harden properly,...
and then hone, etc...
Actually it's best to do all boring and honing after the filler has completely cured or it'll end up like mine did. Mine got bored, poured and then honed. When I honed it, there were high and low spots that I know were not there after the boring.

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post #18 of 26 Old 06-19-2007, 04:47 PM
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Actually it's best to do all boring and honing after the filler has completely cured or it'll end up like mine did. Mine got bored, poured and then honed. When I honed it, there were high and low spots that I know were not there after the boring.
So what did you do?

I am in a similar position as you were. My block('69 351w) has been bored already and I was wanting to add the block filler and then have it finish honed.

I would like to make 650 rwhp, max rpm around 6700, with a Precision 76gts.

Jess

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post #19 of 26 Old 06-19-2007, 06:29 PM
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So what did you do?

I am in a similar position as you were. My block('69 351w) has been bored already and I was wanting to add the block filler and then have it finish honed.

I would like to make 650 rwhp, max rpm around 6700, with a Precision 76gts.
I honed it and ran it like that. I had mine bored very close so I wouldn't have to hone it much. It takes a longer than you would think to hone .001'' out of each cyl so I didn't want that to take any longer than necessary. The guy ended up boring it about exactly on the clearance I wanted to end up with so that didn't leave much room for honing. Had that not been the case, I would have honed the spots out. If your bore is .002'' smaller than what you want to end up with, go ahead and fill it, let it cure as per the instructions, run a precision hone in it briefly and see what it looks like. If you have the high and low spots like I had, you should be able to hone them out if you started at least .002'' smaller than what you wanted to end up with. If the bore is closer than .002'' smaller than the desired end result, there is a high chance you'll end up with a bore that didn't clear up everywhere like mine. I run about .008'' clearance in my motor and it uses a little oil all along but it is a high rpm race only motor so that's no big deal.

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post #20 of 26 Old 06-20-2007, 03:12 PM
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use a deck torque plate also...

they cant accurately hone the bores without the actual piston "in hand"

the pistons vary in actual size, and as A...C... has pointed out, proper rigid hone ( sunnen method) NOT a HBALL BRUSH hone is the ONLY way to get a proper finish and to remove the high spots after a cement filler is added.


also, if YOU are the one that is mixing and pouring and such, then you better tape / block off the head bolt threads...it is really / REALLY hard to get the cement out of the threads...!!!!!

and after it all dries for a few days,
it is also best to purposely have a water hose flushing and you using a hard ./ stiff brush to remove any and all loose particles of the cement that may be on top of the pour because that cement is going to RUIN the hone guys machines oil pump, or if a piece breaks off and happens to fall into the hone area while the hone head is in the cylinder, the cement will gouge out the bore, .....could even break the stone..

he will get mad....!!!!!
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post #21 of 26 Old 06-20-2007, 04:34 PM
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Maybe I will just not use the filler. I don't know if there is anyone with the right equipment to precision hone it or the patience/experience to do it around here. It might be best to leave it alone. I just want to get the most out of what I have.

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post #22 of 26 Old 06-21-2007, 07:39 PM
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If you are going to fill your block, install all the main caps and torque to specs. if you have access to torque plate install after filling the block and torque , if not if you have an old cylinder head use it. Then bore hone , check align bore etc.
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post #23 of 26 Old 06-25-2007, 01:24 PM
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Ok, think of all the time and money you are going to throw into this and what do you get at the end..... You get nervious about driving in traffic, and you get thoughts in your head like this." gee, will my motor let go today?"

Sell the other blocks and buy the new Boss. Do it right, do it once.
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post #24 of 26 Old 07-03-2007, 07:59 PM
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turbo junk,

your profile does not say where you are located.....unless you are in the middle of alaska or sumthin, there IS a machine shop that can do it.

if not, ship it out.... or buy a better block to begin with, but even then, someone has to do the machine work and fitting of parts,....because I can tell that YOU cant do it....!!!!
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post #25 of 26 Old 07-05-2007, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kato Engineering View Post
turbo junk,



if not, ship it out.... or buy a better block to begin with, but even then, someone has to do the machine work and fitting of parts,....because I can tell that YOU cant do it....!!!!
If by this you are saying that I don't have a fully stocked machine shop and knowledge to operate every piece of equipment then yes, you are right. If I worked a machine shop I would have not asked these questions. Also, if I had the money for a aftermarket block I would get one. That is not going to happen anytime soon so I make do with what I have.

I have put together several engines, my father has been a mechanic for 50 plus years. I just don't have access to a machine shop that can do everything I want. In my area(Utica NY) most everything is industrial machine work. I could not even find a place to do a line bore. A few places would do line honing but no one had a boaring machine. It all comes down to the almighty buck.

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post #26 of 26 Old 04-14-2019, 03:05 PM
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best to have an experienced builder do the block filler that has uses it before. bore and hone after curring. my builder torque a stock set of heads on too. filler to bottom of water pump holes. 200 degrees isn't hot caps torqued also. drive on the street no problems. good cooling system, oil cooler helps. filler ties the weak lower section together.
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