thinking of switching to alchol anybody here run it. - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 Old 04-25-2016, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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thinking of switching to alchol anybody here run it.

anybody here run alchol? besides a larger pump,and different carb what is needed?And what is different about the carbs.


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post #2 of 11 Old 04-25-2016, 12:39 PM
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look at this. I have been thinking of going to e85 just because I don't like 11.00 a gallon fuel

Alcohol Fuel Conversion - Building a Gasoline/Alcohol Race Engine - Circle Track Magazine


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will do thanks

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post #4 of 11 Old 04-25-2016, 01:58 PM
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Ive ran it on every race car ive had and fixing to switch current car over. Good rule of thumb is figure you will use close to if not double the amount of gas using now. If using electric pump Bypass style regulator is a must. Usually I wont turn pump on until car is started then I turn pump off followed by then turn ignition off as this helps life of needle and seats. Always use a local guy George Rupert to build my carbs, he has been in the business along time and does good work and he is local. If car sits I usually run car on gas for a few min. If you bracket race its good about once engine gets up to temp it will stay at that temp so maintaining an engine temp is fairly easy. We have tried the e85 thing but it was years ago when it first became avail at pumps. We ran into consistency of fuels issues from batch to batch. I have heard that's not as big of a deal now as was then, and the stuff smells horrible.
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post #5 of 11 Old 04-25-2016, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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right now my car is a 13.1 nitrous car its fast but i cant really race alot because its mostly brackets around here unless i want to drive a few hours. but honesley iam to the point right now were i just want to race and have fun.

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post #6 of 11 Old 04-25-2016, 10:26 PM
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the carbs are not very different just the parts inside like you need a metal needle and seat because the Viton one with alchohol will deteriotate quickly and drain the carb whenever it will sit for very long and you need a bypass regulator. My son changed his turbo car and goes about .25 quicker,now in the 7's
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post #7 of 11 Old 05-03-2016, 09:31 AM
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I run alky. What do you want to know?


I've run carb before, home-brewed conversion, and done right. Ran it for a few years, was pretty consistent. Someone made me an offer on it and I could NOT resist, so I sold it, and used that plus about $150 for a Rupert carburetor. The Rupert was about .1 quicker and 2.5mph faster, in the 1/8 mile. This tells me that no matter how well you think you know how to convert a carb to alky, the guys who do it for a living know it better. The Rupert also never milked the oil, idled clean from cold engine to hot engine, was easy to build heat in the engine from first start of the day. Excellent carburetor for alky-if one wants a carb.

Keep in mind that a circle track carburetor is WAYYYY different than a gas carburetor. It might look the same externally but everything else is different inside. Will a cheap carb work? Yes. Will it work as good as a good one? Not a chance...

Now then......Few years later I was at a race and had an accelerator pump diaphragm start to leak in the semi-finals. 'Course that was the end of the day for me. Not going to risk burning up the race car over a $5.00 diaphragm, nobody had one either. Loaded up and went home. Yes I fixed it and ran the carb another year or so. Someone had mentioned that they had a used injection setup for cheap so I jumped on it, figure why not. I pickled the carb and set it on the shelf sealed up good-just in case I wanted to go back. It took me a grand total of 30 minutes to figure out how the injection system works, and 2 race meets to have it dialed in. Since then, it's never really been apart. Sent the pump back to Ron's and it checked out fine. Only reason I sent it in was because I had seen a tiny bit of alky under it while sitting in the trailer. Turned out to be a leaky hose. Easy fix. Injection is roughly a tenth faster than the Rupert carb was. So that's about a .3 improvement over a gas carb, and about 3 mph.

converting from a gas carb to methanol, you're going to want to do it right the first time. Alky is misleading. The fuel burns "cooler" so it's real easy to burn a gasket, torch a head or block or piston if the timing and or fuel isn't right. Too rich, and it's hard on rod bearings. The engine will tell you but it's nothing like a gas engine. A lean methanol engine will just run weak, without much miss or pop. Next thing you know, you're down on compression in one or more lungs.

You'll need a front mounted fuel cell. Rear mount just doesn't work that well. It can, but its cheaper to run a front mount from the get-go. To run a rear cell, you will have to install a surge tank out front, which is basically a fuel cell with a holley float bowl on it so that it won't over fill. To me, might as well just run the cell in front anyway if you have to put in a surge tank.

Pump-you'll need TWICE+ as much fuel volume capability. You'll use twice as much fuel. I use about 1 gallon per pass (around 700 hp small block N/A). Then of course all your lines will have to be bigger. Most guys including myself who have converted from gas to methanol have used electric pumps and they work in real low power situations (like under 400 hp) but it is MUCH easier to run a belt or cam driven mechanical fuel pump. Most of us who have converted have eventually gone to the mechanical pump. Changing everything over from the get-go is cheaper if you do it right, which is why I suggest calling George Rupert if you're set on a carburetor. His stuff ain't cheap. But neither is doing it twice + fixing a few engines.

Injection on the other hand is so simple, it's crazy. I run a flying toilet. I have also run a terminator. Both work on the exact same principle but the terminator is a 4 hole throttle body and the toilet is a big single blade. The terminator gives you better idling characteristics in the pit area, easier to drive around, and the toilet is a little more responsive out on the race track-which is important to me since I'm foot-braking. The instant you touch the throttle, you're hauling booty. And it is instant. Yes you can drive in the pits with it, and pretty easily. At least I can. There are no accel pumps to leak. No power valves to die. No gaskets. Only a pump, valve/block, and a throttle body, then 8 injector nozzles....and that is all there is to it. Simple. I put mine on in 2008 and I still have the exact same nozzles and everything. I change the pill once a season to lean it out for summer time, since we'll start the season racing in the 50's and in the summer it'll be in the 110 area sometimes with humidity to boot. So I'll put a bigger pill in to lean it out (yes backwards of a carburetor, bigger pill=leaner, small pill=richer). Same principle as an 8 stack on a sprint car or a top fuel car for that matter, mechanical injection is all the same for the most part.

Also, with mechanical injection you can mix in a little nitromethane if you want, but you have to be really thorough and really careful with the stuff. It's like a turbocharger. You can mix it at 5% and be .2 quicker. That feels really good, so you want a little more after while. Then you're at 20% and a half second quicker. But the thing is, stuff is real hard on engines. Blocks and crankshafts, bearings, and head bolts especially. I suggest staying away from it. VP makes some fuel called M5 Methanol which is something like 5% nitropropane mixed in with methanol. It's worth about a tenth over regular methanol but you better have good eye and nose protection because the fumes are nasty. But it's really consistent. I have about 10 gal left over and need to use it up. I just hate the fumes.
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post #8 of 11 Old 05-03-2016, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddturbo View Post
I run alky. What do you want to know?


I've run carb before, home-brewed conversion, and done right. Ran it for a few years, was pretty consistent. Someone made me an offer on it and I could NOT resist, so I sold it, and used that plus about $150 for a Rupert carburetor. The Rupert was about .1 quicker and 2.5mph faster, in the 1/8 mile. This tells me that no matter how well you think you know how to convert a carb to alky, the guys who do it for a living know it better. The Rupert also never milked the oil, idled clean from cold engine to hot engine, was easy to build heat in the engine from first start of the day. Excellent carburetor for alky-if one wants a carb.

Keep in mind that a circle track carburetor is WAYYYY different than a gas carburetor. It might look the same externally but everything else is different inside. Will a cheap carb work? Yes. Will it work as good as a good one? Not a chance...

Now then......Few years later I was at a race and had an accelerator pump diaphragm start to leak in the semi-finals. 'Course that was the end of the day for me. Not going to risk burning up the race car over a $5.00 diaphragm, nobody had one either. Loaded up and went home. Yes I fixed it and ran the carb another year or so. Someone had mentioned that they had a used injection setup for cheap so I jumped on it, figure why not. I pickled the carb and set it on the shelf sealed up good-just in case I wanted to go back. It took me a grand total of 30 minutes to figure out how the injection system works, and 2 race meets to have it dialed in. Since then, it's never really been apart. Sent the pump back to Ron's and it checked out fine. Only reason I sent it in was because I had seen a tiny bit of alky under it while sitting in the trailer. Turned out to be a leaky hose. Easy fix. Injection is roughly a tenth faster than the Rupert carb was. So that's about a .3 improvement over a gas carb, and about 3 mph.

converting from a gas carb to methanol, you're going to want to do it right the first time. Alky is misleading. The fuel burns "cooler" so it's real easy to burn a gasket, torch a head or block or piston if the timing and or fuel isn't right. Too rich, and it's hard on rod bearings. The engine will tell you but it's nothing like a gas engine. A lean methanol engine will just run weak, without much miss or pop. Next thing you know, you're down on compression in one or more lungs.

You'll need a front mounted fuel cell. Rear mount just doesn't work that well. It can, but its cheaper to run a front mount from the get-go. To run a rear cell, you will have to install a surge tank out front, which is basically a fuel cell with a holley float bowl on it so that it won't over fill. To me, might as well just run the cell in front anyway if you have to put in a surge tank.

Pump-you'll need TWICE+ as much fuel volume capability. You'll use twice as much fuel. I use about 1 gallon per pass (around 700 hp small block N/A). Then of course all your lines will have to be bigger. Most guys including myself who have converted from gas to methanol have used electric pumps and they work in real low power situations (like under 400 hp) but it is MUCH easier to run a belt or cam driven mechanical fuel pump. Most of us who have converted have eventually gone to the mechanical pump. Changing everything over from the get-go is cheaper if you do it right, which is why I suggest calling George Rupert if you're set on a carburetor. His stuff ain't cheap. But neither is doing it twice + fixing a few engines.

Injection on the other hand is so simple, it's crazy. I run a flying toilet. I have also run a terminator. Both work on the exact same principle but the terminator is a 4 hole throttle body and the toilet is a big single blade. The terminator gives you better idling characteristics in the pit area, easier to drive around, and the toilet is a little more responsive out on the race track-which is important to me since I'm foot-braking. The instant you touch the throttle, you're hauling booty. And it is instant. Yes you can drive in the pits with it, and pretty easily. At least I can. There are no accel pumps to leak. No power valves to die. No gaskets. Only a pump, valve/block, and a throttle body, then 8 injector nozzles....and that is all there is to it. Simple. I put mine on in 2008 and I still have the exact same nozzles and everything. I change the pill once a season to lean it out for summer time, since we'll start the season racing in the 50's and in the summer it'll be in the 110 area sometimes with humidity to boot. So I'll put a bigger pill in to lean it out (yes backwards of a carburetor, bigger pill=leaner, small pill=richer). Same principle as an 8 stack on a sprint car or a top fuel car for that matter, mechanical injection is all the same for the most part.

Also, with mechanical injection you can mix in a little nitromethane if you want, but you have to be really thorough and really careful with the stuff. It's like a turbocharger. You can mix it at 5% and be .2 quicker. That feels really good, so you want a little more after while. Then you're at 20% and a half second quicker. But the thing is, stuff is real hard on engines. Blocks and crankshafts, bearings, and head bolts especially. I suggest staying away from it. VP makes some fuel called M5 Methanol which is something like 5% nitropropane mixed in with methanol. It's worth about a tenth over regular methanol but you better have good eye and nose protection because the fumes are nasty. But it's really consistent. I have about 10 gal left over and need to use it up. I just hate the fumes.

Ive setup tons of cars for alcohol and even worked for George Rupert some and never had to run a surge tank, help with a car right now that runs 5.20 with cell in rear and a Rupert belt driven pump. And rons injection is something when brought up at a big race you will get mixed opinions on, and my opinion ive hated it the couple times ive tried it but never cared to give it much attention. Pickup et from gas to alky isn't something that 2 people can expect same from. 1 guy may pickup .6 one guy may not pickup any or ive even seen cases in larger c.i. engines where they go slower on it. Key to running alky is don't try to go cheap, some people run a holley blue dead head style setup and do fine but id just spend the money on a good fuel setup and get it over with.
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post #9 of 11 Old 05-03-2016, 06:35 PM
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Well my results with methanol span the last, almost 25 years. I dont' know it all. But we've learned a lot based on our own mistakes, which is why I mentioned all that. I've run-and run successfully the following brands of carbs on a slew of different engines. Rupert, Pro Systems, CSU, J&S, Braswell, Holley, Carter (yeah an AFB converted to Methanol), Predator (hated that one), Quickfuel, BLP, and C&S. Rupert's were always almost spot-on as far at the tune, right out of the box. Can't say that much for the others that I've run. But a good Rupert carb is going to set you back as much as injection, or close, and though the performance isn't a lot different aside from a little better throttle response out of the injection, the simplicity of injection is where it's beauty is.


I won't argue which is better, but I am just stating what has been one of the two best investments in my program. One was backhalfing it and 2nd was going to methanol injection. Between the two, they have paid for themselves many times over. I've been successful with a carburetor as well, and so many others have too. But all it takes is ONE gasket to leak, fill a cylinder with fuel and your raceday is done. Not a problem with injection. Having worked with a few people setting their stuff up, I find it a lot easier to set up the injection than to fiddle with a carburetor's air bleeds, floats, etc. That is why I suggest Rupert, because most of his stuff is nothing more than a phone call, bolt it on, and race. Don't usually have to mess with them much.

Far as some cars not picking any up going to methanol, those are isolated cases...usually big inch stuff (600+) with lots of compression. There have been a few exceptions but by a large majority, I'd expect to see a .25 to .3 improvement in ET going from gas to methanol, with injection being closer to the .3 improvement. It is not without it's problems...BUT once it's on and tuned, it seems to be a lot less problematic.

Think about racing in general. Top fuel, top alcohol, most all sprint cars, and a TON of other types of race cars all run injection, and all of those are basically the same setup....mechanical...it's just stupid simple and it flat works. Indy cars used to run mechanical injection for years until electronic injection became more prevalent in the 1980's, then a few years ago they went to E98 fuel which is available nowhere else but a race track....I want to speculate why they went E98 but I'll keep that to myself. NASCAR also went to EFI but E15 (IIRC) and I speculate why for the same reasons, having to do with "going green".

If the OP wants to hash it back and forth, I would suggest calling James Monroe or Scott Offerman at Ron's midwest office, (killerrons.com) and they'll give you unbiased, realistic, and tell you what to expect from either setup...without you having to spend a dime other than what the phone call costs. Those 2 guys are awesome. George Rupert is too, and I will personally attest to his excellent service, but I got the impression that he is in business to sell carburetors. When I asked him about injection, the subject changed pretty quickly. Nothing against him, that's what he does is carbs, but I wanted an opinion on both. When I called Monroe, I got that opinion and it was unbiased, good and bad of both sides. I also talked directly with Rons out of Arizona and I didn't care for their attitudes but I also know that everyone has a bad day here and there.
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post #10 of 11 Old 05-04-2016, 03:21 PM
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I was at a large race pitted next to George once, temps went from 60s on Friday to waking up Saturday morning to 30s. We had our cars warming up and this guy parked across from us walked up and said, " hey could one of you come help me get my car started" back then I was 15 racing a Camaro that was owned by an individual who worked full time for George. They said is car on alky dude said yeah, George asked what setup and they guy said a toilet, it was so funny George said well go get ron or his son to help ya because we honestly know nothing about them. Dude said hell they been down there an hour trying to get there own car started with no luck. That Monday George shipped that individual a carb lol

Throttle response with rons setup is insane I will give it that, but I guess seeing ive known George personally since I was 12 and hes like 10 miles from me im figuring is why I stick with his stuff. George is a small business out of his basement, that's now only him and his son working there. He is strictly business, he doesn't care what your neighbors cousins brothers car runs or has as a carb. All he cares about is his products and making them work for you.

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post #11 of 11 Old 05-05-2016, 10:43 AM
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I have raced well down in to the 20's air temp....granted the track absolutely SUCKED, but I've never once had a toilet fail to start. Every single time. Now some newbies who haven't figured it out, that's a different story. Really there is no trick. If someone switching can afford to go ahead with installing a primer plus system, then it's worth every penny. runs real cold. Some guys out here don't even have a cooling system. No radiator, pump, nothing.

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