SOLID vs HYDRAULIC pros & cons - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 19 Old 06-20-2009, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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SOLID vs HYDRAULIC pros & cons

thinking about going solid roller in my notch...can anyone give me the ups and downs as far as solid vs. hydraulic...its just a track car, although i do drive it to the track and occasionally around the neighborhood to keep everyone on there toes...


what would be needed to make the swap?

feel free to chime in...any opinion is fine, just trying to figure out where to get the most out of the car before the juice goes on....

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post #2 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 12:45 AM
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There are no cons to a solid flat or roller lifter. Hydraulics on the other hand have their 'cons' as they require special modifications to keep the lifters pumped at higher rpms, especially with heavier than stock valve springs.

To give you an idea of how reliable and maintenance free solid is, almost every japanese 4 cylinder car and motorcycle motor ever made had solid type lifters. The old Chrysler 'slant' inline 6s were solid lifters. If they didn't live for at least 300,000+ miles then they were horribly abused. Most all tractor and small motors have solid lifters.

I could go on about this all night and all day tomorrow...

Ditch the junk hydraulic lifters the manufacturer mistakenly installed and go with solid for the rest of your life.

The only major regret you will have is not doing it sooner.


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post #3 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 12:57 AM
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I have never had to do mods to get my hyd stuff to not have issues over 6500

Guess my cam is just designed so that I don't have issues.

I prefer the hyd stuff with the crap oil you get today it is going to cause issues. unless you spend $10 a quart on racing oil.

Just imagin how fast I could go with a solid roller.

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post #4 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 09:00 AM
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Hydraulic Roller = Good for the street, junk for the track, floats the valves at high RPM.
Solid Roller = Head-work required for install, extremely expensive, high RPM friendly.

When I did my top end, I cheaped out and bought hydraulic roller parts again. Then, I checked into what it would cost to have a custom solid roller cam made and all the necessary parts and machine work required. $1500+ if I remember correctly. Basically, I decided it was a waste of coin considering what the solid conversion would enable me to do = overrev the car which would end up hurting the bottom end.

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post #5 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 09:27 AM
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It can be expensive to upgrade to a solid roller:
Lifters, cam, and springs are the main things, but also keep in mind for a healthy solid roller you need a pretty heavy spring, so you will need at a minimum, 7/16" rocker studs with a recommendation of a stud girdle.

But with the expense comes better performance possibilities. Even with lower lift cams, you can increase ramp rates allowing valves to open and close quicker. I'm no cam guru, but I'm glad I've got a solid in my car.

As far as maintenance goes, I check the lash every couple months and run say 10-20 passes per month. I haven't had to adjust it at all unless I was making a change for performance. I was running 240/600 lbs springs, titanium retainers, and jomar stud girdles with 1.6 scorpion rockers. Only spinning the motor to 6400, but had no problems and no re-adjustments necessary.

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post #6 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 10:45 AM
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I switched to a solid roller from the hydraulic and was very surprised at the lack of adjustment that it needed.......yes it is an expensive conversion though.
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post #7 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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so far, solid seems the way to go, but expense and head work are needed..


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post #8 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M88handles View Post
so far, solid seems the way to go, but expense and head work are needed..
What head work are you all referring to other than having new proper springs setup?

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post #9 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 01:23 PM
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I was told the spring pockets would need machine work on my AFR 165s.

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post #10 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 04:54 PM
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post #11 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 69mach03 View Post
I was told the spring pockets would need machine work on my AFR 165s.

That's got more to do with the spring itself rather than the type of cam.

There is no certain valve springs made for solid or hydraulic camshafts. Springs are made to match the lift and duration figures of a certain range of cams regardless of lifter type.

You could have two camshafts exactly alike in lift and duration. One could be a solid roller and the other a hydraulic. Both could use the same valve spring.

Larger lift/duration cams, solid or not, usually require modifications to the head to get the spring height set up properly. Especially if the head is a stock iron. Usually the aftermarket heads have a certain 'range' you can go up to on the cam before machining is required.

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post #12 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Raceallday1 View Post
That's got more to do with the spring itself rather than the type of cam.

There is no certain valve springs made for solid or hydraulic camshafts. Springs are made to match the lift and duration figures of a certain range of cams regardless of lifter type.

You could have two camshafts exactly alike in lift and duration. One could be a solid roller and the other a hydraulic. Both could use the same valve spring.

Larger lift/duration cams, solid or not, usually require modifications to the head to get the spring height set up properly. Especially if the head is a stock iron. Usually the aftermarket heads have a certain 'range' you can go up to on the cam before machining is required.

Thanks for the schooling. I was simply stating what kind of machine work was required / suggested per my conversation with Jay Allen. He had a special valve size and combination in mind for my AFRs and basically gave me a price list for everything required. I'll definiately buy a custom cam from him whenever I start putting together a 408W... but for the time being, doing the mechanical roller swap was a waste of money, IMO.

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post #13 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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so i guess the question to ask now is...is it worth the time and money to go from hydraulic to solid....or spend the money elsewhere? ex..nitrous,carb,converter,etc,etc????


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post #14 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 05:54 PM
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so i guess the question to ask now is...is it worth the time and money to go from hydraulic to solid....

If you already have the motor running with the hydraulic cam, then No. It's not worth the extra money. The time to go with a solid is when your buying the parts to build the motor.

It's going to cost at least $1000 to swap over now. Best thing to do is spend that money elsewhere where you will see more gain. The converter is a very good place to start unless you already have it the way you want.

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post #15 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for the schooling. I was simply stating what kind of machine work was required / suggested per my conversation with Jay Allen. He had a special valve size and combination in mind for my AFRs and basically gave me a price list for everything required. I'll definiately buy a custom cam from him whenever I start putting together a 408W... but for the time being, doing the mechanical roller swap was a waste of money, IMO.

Looking at your sig, your car seems to be doing pretty good with what it has. Personally, I think the dual plane intake is hurting the motor way worse than the camshaft. You would probably gain a tenth and a couple of mph with a victor jr or something similar. Have you already tried that? A slight drop in gear ratio might help also.

Just my .02.....

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post #16 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 09:58 PM
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7500 rpm shift is my Cams limit.. After that I usally bend push rods.

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post #17 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 10:16 PM
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Looking at your sig, your car seems to be doing pretty good with what it has. Personally, I think the dual plane intake is hurting the motor way worse than the camshaft. You would probably gain a tenth and a couple of mph with a victor jr or something similar. Have you already tried that? A slight drop in gear ratio might help also.

Just my .02.....

Sorry to hijack, OP.... but I'll respond to this.

Prior to the converter swap, the car was only expected to run in the 12.0 range. When I was putting it together, I thought the dual plane manifold would help compensate for the lack of torque the stock shortblock was making. Ends up, with the 8" converter, the car is flying... and I regret not going to a single plane Victor Jr. as I had MANY suggest previously. I installed a 1" carb spacer to help funnel the air and make the most out of the dual plane. That's the best I can do for now. I might do an intake swap over the off-season. My wallet is empty. I have no intentions of removing gear from the car. I thought maybe stepping up to a 28" slick (Hoosier notes their 26" slicks to be 26.4" overall) but this would drop 500 RPM from what it goes through at. Don't know if this would help the car much on either end?

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post #18 of 19 Old 06-22-2009, 11:06 PM Thread Starter
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69mach03....dont apologize...all the info you guys are posting is helping me figure my car out...its my first c4 car, so anything you guys post is fine. just want to know where i should turn my attention to get the most out of the car......UNFORTUNATELY..i dont know what cam is in the car and dont want to rip it apart to find out, but sooner or later im going to have to... so, please feel free to post opinions on what you guys think about my set-up (my sig) and what cam(hydraulic) you think i should run...


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post #19 of 19 Old 06-28-2009, 10:22 PM
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my 2 cents worth. I have a solid roller in my car best thing ive done it was expensive to do around 1300 but the performance was well worth it. what ever you do be it hydrolic or solid, have the cam custom made for your aplication it will pay of in the end

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