9 Second Cage Cert, Question on Welding - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 03:12 PM Thread Starter
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Question 9 Second Cage Cert, Question on Welding

I have a Wolfe chromemoly cage, question is on the kickouts from the main hoop down to the floor behind the seats. Are these bars supposed to be welded to the subframe connectors for 9 second legality? I do NOT have through the floor subframes, I have Maximum Motorsports full length subframes. This would entail cutting a piece out of the floor to weld them down.

I talked to Wolfe and they said that you do not have to weld them to the subframe, that the kit should have been supplied with enough 1/8" plate to weld it to the floor (as indeed it was). My rulebook (2007) kinda mentions it needing to be welded to the subframe, but the wording is a little tricky so I'm not 100%.

I know which way is better, just needing a yes or no answer please. TIA.


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post #2 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 05:28 PM
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Considering wolf builds these cars, I'd be inclined to trust what he says. however, you would need to instal through the floor SBC's in order to tie the cage into them.

what does the NHRA book say? ( i don't have mine with me)


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post #3 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 05:36 PM
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Scratch that.. I do have it.

From what I can tell if the car is a full framed car the cage has to be welded to it, mustangs are not full framed cars.the plates should work. it's up to you if you want to do through the floor SBC, but if you do, the cage needs to be welded to them.

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post #4 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 08:15 PM
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Its stronger for them to go through the floor and attach to the subframe connector*. All you need is a <3" hole through the floor, and then get underneath and weld it up. The subframe connector obviously has a little more "meat" to it than the floor does, and therefor makes the whole thing a little stronger, in my opinion.

Then again, like Speedfreak said, its not legally required according to the NHRA.

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Last edited by FN RCKT; 10-08-2008 at 10:18 PM. Reason: * I meant subframe connector, not subframe
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post #5 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedfreak87 View Post
From what I can tell if the car is a full framed car the cage has to be welded to it, mustangs are not full framed cars.the plates should work..
yup,the floor in that part of a stang is the frame cause it's a unibody.

Last edited by fastbutnotfurious; 10-08-2008 at 08:53 PM.
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post #6 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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I was just a bit confused cause in the chart for 8.50 and slower full bodied cars, it has the description for the kickers and says specifically "must be welded to subframe". Not full frame, subframe.

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post #7 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by buffhomer View Post
I was just a bit confused cause in the chart for 8.50 and slower full bodied cars, it has the description for the kickers and says specifically "must be welded to subframe". Not full frame, subframe.
the floor is to be considered the subframe,so in effect on a mustang you have 3 subframes,the front one that unbolts,the rear one that holds the rear suspension and the middle which is the floor that connects everything.

Last edited by fastbutnotfurious; 10-08-2008 at 10:01 PM.
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post #8 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 11:19 PM
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You could contact NHRA directly to get more clarification to help out.. or contact another chassis shop like teamZ etc..

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post #9 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 11:47 PM
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the 1/8 thick flat floor plate that is directly under the round hoop needs to be positioned directly over the area that has the subframe connectors.

I have gone down the road that you are only now about to travel.
tires are the great equalizer
a degree wheel, EIGHT INCH dial caliper & adjustable pushrods should be just as normal as a 1/2" wrench in your toolbox
there aint no shortcuts to doing it RIGHT....
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post #10 of 25 Old 10-08-2008, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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I figured as much Kato. Thanks.

I do have a word in with TeamZ as well.


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post #11 of 25 Old 10-09-2008, 04:15 AM
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With the max motorsports conectors you have. I have the same I was able to drill a hole just big enough for the tube to fit thru and then weld all the way around from under the car.

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post #12 of 25 Old 10-09-2008, 06:03 PM
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With the max motorsports conectors you have. I have the same I was able to drill a hole just big enough for the tube to fit thru and then weld all the way around from under the car.

Tim
X2, thats what I have done on previous cars, I feel it ties everything together better, and makes for a stronger chassis and cage.

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post #13 of 25 Old 10-14-2008, 04:19 PM
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Here's how I did mine.






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post #14 of 25 Old 10-14-2008, 10:52 PM
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Here's how I did mine.






Nice,

another way to do it is to take the 1/8 plate, cut a hole through it for the tube, slid it up on the tube. Then welded the plate to the floor after the tube was welded to the frame connector then weld the tube to the plate also. Much cleaner and supposed to be stronger


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Last edited by jjohnson; 10-14-2008 at 11:03 PM. Reason: re word
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post #15 of 25 Old 10-15-2008, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
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Well the word from the NHRA is that if you have subframe connectors, you need to tie into them. If you don't, you can go to the floor/trans tunnel with reinforcement plates.

I have already attached mine onto the tops of my subframes anyway.

Here's a tidbit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRA.com
2008 Rule Amendments (Updated 9/08/2008)
General Regulations
Section 4
4:11 Roll Cage
Page 81 (03/08)

Add new paragraph "D" bar installation for full bodied cars: For front wheel drive cars, with complete OEM floor (from the fire wall to the rear of the trunk) and rocker/sill boxes, the 1-1/4" x .058" CM (.118" MS) "D" bars (when required; i.e. when the main hoop is not welded to the frame) may be welded to a 1-5/8" x .083" CM (.118" MS) cross member welded to the rocker/sill box via conventional 6" x 6" x 1/8" thick plates. For rear wheel drive cars, with neither a frame nor sub-frame connectors, but with complete OEM floor (from the fire wall to the rear of the trunk; exception: the rear inner wheel wells may be tubbed with steel or aluminum.) and rocker/sill boxes, the 1-1/4" x .058 CM (.118" MS) "D" bars may be welded to conventional 6" x 6" x 1/8" plates attached to the drive shaft tunnel."

1984 Coupe - Proline Dart 327ci, compound turbos, 9", minitubs, cage, T-top coupe project car
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Last edited by buffhomer; 10-16-2008 at 12:00 AM.
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post #16 of 25 Old 10-16-2008, 03:28 AM
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so those who had to weld in new floor pans have to tie them into the subframes? since it says complete oem floor from front to back?

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post #17 of 25 Old 10-16-2008, 01:08 PM
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Here is my suggestion, unless you have through the floor subframe connectors, I would not tie the cage into them. My opinion, is that unless it is a 2X3" subframe connector that is welded to the both ends of the frame and also to the floor pan where they protrude through, simply use 6X6" 1/8" thick plates welded to the floor. I think you would end up with more rigidity than tieing into some half ass street type sub frame connector that was never meant to be the foundation for a Sportsman tagged cage (8.50 and slower). The plates are the NHRA approved method.

Last edited by BOSS302; 10-16-2008 at 01:11 PM.
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post #18 of 25 Old 10-16-2008, 01:32 PM
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JJohnson's way is the best in my opinion.

And welding them to a subframe connector is also NHRA Approved.

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post #19 of 25 Old 10-16-2008, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Agreed, jjohnson's method sounds fabulous.

Also am thinking of welding in a plate from the front drops to the A-pillars, and perhaps a few others here and there throughout the chassis. REALLY tie in the body to the cage ya know?

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post #20 of 25 Old 10-16-2008, 08:52 PM
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I'm not tied into my subs and the car passed chassis certification with no issues.

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post #21 of 25 Old 10-21-2008, 10:32 PM
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Great thread and timing. I have just begun installing a 10pt Wolfe Chromemoly cage and decided to cut the original sub frame connector out in favor of the through the floor version.

Now I've got a lot of reading to do here with the help of the "search" and look for tips when fitting the throught he floor and not making my cuts too big. Does anyone recommend cutting the openings of the through the floor pieces a little small then bending the floor sheetmetal 90° to have a little more meat to weld too?

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post #22 of 25 Old 10-22-2008, 12:26 PM
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floor material is not too easy to weld to due to thin thicknss and aluminized coating........that is why the spec says to use a large floor plate.. but as allways, when the tube hoop is welded directly to the square tube connector, then a small amount of weld directly to factory floor just makes things that much stiffer..
this helps to keep the doors and door pilars and such from sagging over time.

I have gone down the road that you are only now about to travel.
tires are the great equalizer
a degree wheel, EIGHT INCH dial caliper & adjustable pushrods should be just as normal as a 1/2" wrench in your toolbox
there aint no shortcuts to doing it RIGHT....
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post #23 of 25 Old 10-26-2008, 01:26 AM
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The floors are tough not to burn through. I stopped before I made a mess of them. What did stick good definitely stiffened things up nicely. I was just tacking things in place for fitment. I can hardly wait for the entire weld up to come about. Wolfe instructions say to mig it. Maybe tig would have better control and less burn through?

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Last edited by Mick; 10-26-2008 at 01:28 AM. Reason: many typos
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post #24 of 25 Old 10-26-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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The floors are tough not to burn through. I stopped before I made a mess of them. What did stick good definitely stiffened things up nicely. I was just tacking things in place for fitment. I can hardly wait for the entire weld up to come about. Wolfe instructions say to mig it. Maybe tig would have better control and less burn through?
The roll bar in my car was TIG welded and there is no burn through. I also MIG welded my upper and lower torque box reinforcements with no burn through. You need to thoroughly grind down the floor and put some weld through primer on it.

You can try to weld about 3 passes and stop, then start again. I just fixed a hole in the floor board by doing it that way and it had ripped a sizable amount.

New times coming soon.....
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post #25 of 25 Old 10-28-2008, 12:06 PM
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Nice,

another way to do it is to take the 1/8 plate, cut a hole through it for the tube, slid it up on the tube. Then welded the plate to the floor after the tube was welded to the frame connector then weld the tube to the plate also. Much cleaner and supposed to be stronger
That is the way mine was done. Looks nice, seals the interior up and they said it adds a little strength.


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