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post #36 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
aahhh, no.

if that were the case the CEL would come on in run and stay on in crank.....

poster has spark without spout connected, no PIP would be no spark

please edit your response.
Sorry but you are wrong. When the PIP starts failing the engine stalls. You might get code 14 but not always. Pulling the SPOUT bypasses the PIP allowing the car to run with default timing. I have seen this condition 3 or 4 times on 94-95 Mustangs GTs. Iíve owned 4 of them.

Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, you could get spark but no injector pulse.

It typically happens when the car warms up as the PIP sensor is heat sensitive. The PIP stops working and the engine dies. Wait a bit for the engine to cool and it restarts. It tends to be very erratic at first but increases in frequency until it does altogether. The first time it happened on my 94 GT it literally took me months of research to find the cause. While the PIP sensor can be replaced, it is easiest to just get a new distributor.

You have to be careful with rebuilt distributors too. They often get turned in because of the erratic PIP sensor, but this sensor is not always replaced in a rebuilt. Since it tends to fal after getting hot, it seems to pass quality check and gets sold. The new buyer then inherits another bad sensor.

More details are available here: https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...sensor.888218/

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post #37 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 12:54 AM Thread Starter
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Keep in mind I can't pull codes the ECM won't give me anything, Fuel pump is not priming at all and I have no power to the injectors when the spout is in or out. I am pretty sure this is more then just the PIP.

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post #38 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 01:36 AM
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Flade

PIP is 0-10v square wave, that is the signal to the ICM, and ECM

Anyhoo.......the poster has NO CEL in run.........

and that stangcrap write up, is mostly incorrect.

lets return to regular program

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #39 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 01:45 AM
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no power to the injectors in run, is the eec relay or power feed to the relay, fuse link G


the eec relay is turned on by the ignition switch


the ecm does not power the injectors

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #40 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 02:17 AM Thread Starter
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I shouldn't say no power, there was about 1.5v to the injectors. but they are not firing when the engine is turned over.
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post #41 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lukeb_11 View Post
I shouldn't say no power, there was about 1.5v to the injectors. but they are not firing when the engine is turned over.
during this test, where are your test leads for the 1.5volt reading?

I have found that most don't correctly place the leads, which leads to misdiagnosis

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #42 of 89 Old 06-29-2019, 08:55 AM
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However, we are starting to jump around, another diagnosis issue

so lets get back to the sequence, first we need to verify 5v ref.

you could have many issues,,,,,,,

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #43 of 89 Old 06-30-2019, 07:48 PM Thread Starter
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However, we are starting to jump around, another diagnosis issue

so lets get back to the sequence, first we need to verify 5v ref.

you could have many issues,,,,,,,
Ok I just tested all the sensors. I unplugged each sensor one at at checking volts at the act each time. The voltage remained consistent at 0.18V. What should i check next?
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post #44 of 89 Old 06-30-2019, 08:38 PM
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check power to ecm pins

then voltage drop test

from batt pos to ecm powers

then batt neg to ecm grounds

key must be in run

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #45 of 89 Old 06-30-2019, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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which pins do i check?

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post #46 of 89 Old 07-01-2019, 09:23 AM
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power 37,57

ground 40,60

5v ref 26

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #47 of 89 Old 07-01-2019, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
power 37,57

ground 40,60

5v ref 26
Ok so, power 37, 57 both read 1.8 volts

Pins 40 and 60 were 1.3

Pin 26 5v ref did not register at all.
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post #48 of 89 Old 07-01-2019, 11:36 PM
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and the voltage drop numbers are?

this exercise is for you. and voltage drop is far more important to understand.

so we'll continue after that.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #49 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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How would I go about doing a voltage drop test to the pins?
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post #50 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 08:39 AM
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one lead at the power source, the battery the other lead at the corresponding pin on the ecm

ie key in run, one lead at batt pos, the other lead at the pin 37, then 57

you are going to measure the voltage drop across the wires.....

then do the same for batt neg and 40, 60

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #51 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 09:57 PM Thread Starter
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one lead at the power source, the battery the other lead at the corresponding pin on the ecm

ie key in run, one lead at batt pos, the other lead at the pin 37, then 57

you are going to measure the voltage drop across the wires.....

then do the same for batt neg and 40, 60
Ok the voltage drop for pin 37 and 57 is 10 Volts each

pins 40 and 60 have no drop.
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post #52 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 10:15 PM
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so you read 1.8volts at ecm

you have a 10volt drop

I bet your batt voltage is 11.8 volts

little low

but now you must find where the 10volts are lost.........

look at your wiring diagram, pic the easiest end to check and find that resistance.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #53 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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battery reads 12.4v. but i will look at a diagram
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post #54 of 89 Old 07-02-2019, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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According to the diagram it looks like I should look at the PCM power relay. I guess I will check that next.
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post #55 of 89 Old 07-03-2019, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeb_11 View Post
battery reads 12.4v. but i will look at a diagram

did you check batt voltage with key in run?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #56 of 89 Old 07-03-2019, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Lukeb_11 View Post
According to the diagram it looks like I should look at the PCM power relay. I guess I will check that next.
whatever is easiest

all you need to do

key on, leave one lead on batt pos

take the other lead and follow down the line of that power wire.....

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post #57 of 89 Old 07-03-2019, 09:13 AM
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first thing to do when diagnoainf anything that could be ecu related is to replace the ecu relay. I couldnt tell you the thousands Ive had replaced over the years.
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post #58 of 89 Old 07-03-2019, 09:34 AM
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we will get to that if its needed

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #59 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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we will get to that if its needed
Ok I am back from my Tofino trip. Today I checked the pins on the ccrm. I checked Pin 8 which i believe is power going into the EEC relay it read 12.4V same as the battery. Then I checked pin 12 which is power out of the EEC relay with the key on and there is only 2V. So bad ccrm? also checked pin 11 for constant power and it is good.
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post #60 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:14 PM
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i dont have a diagram so i dont know the pin numbers

if you feel that is correct, voltage drop test the power feed to it, then the ground

if there is no voltage drop, jump the ccrm with a wire to the pcm and see if it starts

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #61 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:31 PM
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8 and 10 are power to relay line side from battery pos

12 and 24 is load side and goes to pcm pins 37, 57

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post #62 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:39 PM Thread Starter
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power to ccrm

10, 12 is power in, no?
The diagram I was looking at showed 8 and 10 as power in, and 12 and 24 as power out. I did do a voltage drop test and it was losing 10 volts. I will try and jump the pins and see if it starts.
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post #63 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:40 PM
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power from igntion switch to

pin 13 for energizing the relay

pin 15 is the ground from ccrm to batt neg


you have some testing to do, before you call the ccrm or swap away.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #64 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lukeb_11 View Post
The diagram I was looking at showed 8 and 10 as power in, and 12 and 24 as power out. I did do a voltage drop test and it was losing 10 volts. I will try and jump the pins and see if it starts.
i corrected it before you posted

the drop test requires the leads on the same wire, power or ground

from one end to the other

you are losing 10volts from battery pos to pins 8 and 10??

is this correct?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #65 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
i corrected it before you posted

the drop test requires the leads on the same wire, power or ground

from one end to the other

you are losing 10volts from battery pos to pins 8 and 10??

is this correct?
Pins 8 and 10 have no drop at all. pins 12 and 24 have the 10v drop.
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post #66 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:48 PM
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one lead is at batt pos post and the other lead is at pin 8 and 10 and you get 10v drop


there is a problem then, what do you think it is?

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post #67 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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pins 8 and 10 have no drop. The power out pins 12 and 24 have a 10 volt drop from the post battery post the pin.
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post #68 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:54 PM
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i think there is some confusion here


test like this


one lead batt pos other lead to 8 and 10, drop=?

one lead at 15 other at batt neg, drop=?

one lead at 12 and 24 other at 37, 57 of pcm, drop=?

one lead at 13 other at batt pos, drop=?

key in run

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #69 of 89 Old 07-08-2019, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeb_11 View Post
pins 8 and 10 have no drop. The power out pins 12 and 24 have a 10 volt drop from the post battery post the pin.
okay

do the above tests and post results

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #70 of 89 Old 07-09-2019, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
i think there is some confusion here


test like this


one lead batt pos other lead to 8 and 10, drop=?

one lead at 15 other at batt neg, drop=?

one lead at 12 and 24 other at 37, 57 of pcm, drop=?

one lead at 13 other at batt pos, drop=?

key in run
CCRM Pins 8 and 10 = no drop

CCRM pin 15 = no drop

CCRM 12 and 24 to EEC 37 and 57 = no drop

CCRM pin 13 = 11.8V drop
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