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post #1 of 37 Old 07-12-2009, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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351W Bronco: Need more power!!

Hi all, I know this is the 5.8L Lightning forum but they are both 5.8L trucks.

What's the best way to give my monster 1995 Bronco more power? Around town it's not too bad, but going up some of these long Cali hills sucks, I have to floor it and turn overdrive off to even maintain speed. I can only imagine what it's like pulling a trailer.

Currently I have 35" tires with 4.56 gears, CAI, an Edelbrock intake manifold, shorty headers, new cat and flowmaster exhaust.

The shifting also seems quite lazy. What can I do to fix this?

Thanks guys,
IJ

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post #2 of 37 Old 07-12-2009, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Would some good heads, like AFR 185s, and a good truck cam be a worthy upgrade, or would it hurt my low-end?

I know a whipple supercharger would be great, but I've checked Kenne Bell's website and it appears they no longer support the 351 engines. It's no longer on the price lists...


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post #3 of 37 Old 07-12-2009, 01:59 PM
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Yeah afrs would help out maybe even 165s to help with the low RPM torque. Pick a cam thats got a big flat torque curve. For the trans check out Lightning Force Performance for the valve body. Also if it's not your DD you can adapt any thing to any thing. Get a superchager you like and make it happen. http://www.nloc.net/vbforum/gen-1-li...ne-bell-2.html

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post #4 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 02:48 PM
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For the price you would pay for heads and cam, you could get a used supercharger. That will give you way more bang for the buck! I had about the best heads you can get with a ported GT40 and Trick Flow Stage 2 cam. It made 303rwhp. I could have very easily done that and more for less if I put the blower on instead.

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post #5 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 05:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madramper View Post
For the price you would pay for heads and cam, you could get a used supercharger. That will give you way more bang for the buck! I had about the best heads you can get with a ported GT40 and Trick Flow Stage 2 cam. It made 303rwhp. I could have very easily done that and more for less if I put the blower on instead.
I don't believe a centrifugal supercharger would be a good choice for a giant heavy street-driven truck used to haul things. I don't think it's ever revved over 5K. This ain't no Mustang.

I think AFR 165 heads would be a good choice, but wanted the 185s cause they are made for a 351 block (bolt holes are larger). I suppose they could be drilled out. The concensus on fullsizebronco.com is the 185s are too big and I'd loose low-end.

Any opinions on off-the-shelf cams which would work with this set-up? Or would the stockers be fine? Maybe with some Cobra 1.7 rockers? I just bought the truck a couple months ago and am now deployed. I don't know if I'm mass-air or speed-density. I do have an Edelbrock upper & lower intake manifold and full exhaust...

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post #6 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 05:06 PM
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Its not going to be too much heavier than my 4400 pound truck. A Vortech is the way to go for the street. Or you could spend a lot more money and get a turbo.

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post #7 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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Its not going to be too much heavier than my 4400 pound truck. A Vortech is the way to go for the street. Or you could spend a lot more money and get a turbo.
I'm still not convinced. Centifugals make max boost at max RPM. You have a manual tranny so you can keep your RPMs up where they are useful. How much boost do you make at 2000 RPM? 3000? 4000? That's where I'm at 99.9% of the time.

I need torque to get this thing moving. My wheels are ginormous. The pics don't do the size of this thing justice. I'm 6' and my head is about level with my rear-view mirrors. I can't fit in drive-through car washes!

The AFR heads flow more than stockers at all valvelifts. They should help down low and up top, especially if I get a cam that helps take advantage of that (higher lift).

Turbo would be cool tho. I only plan on spending about $2k right now. That should cover the heads and cam.

BTW: I emailed Kenne-bell and they actually responded: "We do not offer this kit for Bronco anymore." Lame. Looks like they only support Mod motors now.

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post #8 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 06:20 PM
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I make 425ft/lbs by 2500 rpms. At cruising, it doesn't make any boost no matter what rpm you're at. It drive like stock unless you get into the gas... when you need it, going up hills, towing, etc.

I'm certainly not arguing with you. Its your truck. Do what you want. I'm just telling you my experiences with making heavy trucks fast. I had an automatic up until 2 weeks ago. I just finished the TKO swap on Thursday.

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post #9 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 06:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madramper View Post
I make 425ft/lbs by 2500 rpms. At cruising, it doesn't make any boost no matter what rpm you're at. It drive like stock unless you get into the gas... when you need it, going up hills, towing, etc.

I'm certainly not arguing with you. Its your truck. Do what you want. I'm just telling you my experiences with making heavy trucks fast. I had an automatic up until 2 weeks ago. I just finished the TKO swap on Thursday.
Well that's amazing to me. How much boost are you making at that RPM? Are you still dealing with only 351 cubic inches, or do you have a stroker?

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post #10 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 06:46 PM
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I have the stock bottom end still. So its 351 ci with about 9:1 compression give or take a point. It looks like maybe 2psi or so and it looks like 2600 not 2500, but thats probably close enough. The graph starts around 2600.


Here is my graph. Click on it for a larger view




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post #11 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Pretty FAT! Looks good!

I'll probably do the tranny valve, heads, and cam for now. You give me hope for a Vortech in the future tho. Thanks!

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post #12 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 07:06 PM
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If you plan to keep it NA for now, I wouldn't recommend the TFS Stage 2 that I have. It lacks the low end you would really need with big tires. I could only get a best of a 2.0 60' with drag radials at the track. Once I got past the 60' or so, it really came alive, but that doesn't help turn big tires. Now once I threw some boost at it, it woke right up.

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post #13 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 07:11 PM
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And the AFR 185s are defiantely not too big for a 351. Some of the guys over on www.nloc.net think they are on the small side for a 351. Check with Ed Curtis at www.flowtechinduction.com about the heads. He does R&D work for AFR and he designed the heads that are on my truck.

I believe you should have an E4OD tranny in that truck. Check out thePunisher over on www.delvallo.net. He is the Ford auto magician! He can set you up with a killer valve body.

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post #14 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by madramper View Post
And the AFR 185s are defiantely not too big for a 351. Some of the guys over on www.nloc.net think they are on the small side for a 351. Check with Ed Curtis at www.flowtechinduction.com about the heads. He does R&D work for AFR and he designed the heads that are on my truck.

I believe you should have an E4OD tranny in that truck. Check out thePunisher over on www.delvallo.net. He is the Ford auto magician! He can set you up with a killer valve body.
The guy I bought the truck said about the tranny:
$3200.00 CUSTOM BUILD USING HEAVIER DUTY F-350 [ 1 TON ] UPGRADED PARTS, A NEW TORQUE CONVERTER, A COOLER 3 TIMES THE SIZE OF THE ORIGINAL, B&M DEEP SUMP TRANSMISSION PAN, NEW 4WD CONTROL MOTOR, NEW TRANS MOUNT, NEW REAR MAIN ENGINE SEAL, AND A TRANS TEMP. GUAGE.

Not sure if the tranny is an actual F-350 tranny or if it just has "some parts" from it.

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post #15 of 37 Old 07-13-2009, 08:29 PM
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Check with thePunisher. I don't think there is anything different in the E4OD for an F350. The only difference I can think of is the case for a big block, but I believe the internals are the same. There are updates to the newer ones, but thats 95+. Paul can set you straight though and build you a valve body however you want it.

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post #16 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 11:06 AM
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I would install some AFR 185's and a custom hydraulic roller camshaft from Ed Curtis at FTI. I would also port match the intake to the new heads.

I built an engine for a customer several years ago to put into his 1988 Bronco. It was a 393W with AFR 185's and a stock Explorer V8 camshaft with 1.7 rockers. We installed an Edelbrock RPM Mustang intake and modified the throttle cable and air box configuration. We also installed a 75mm throttle body. It had MAC shorty headers on it, 35" tires and 4.56 gears. That thing would get it on and the customer had a hard time keeping the E4OD behind it. I think he ended up replacing it twice after we installed the engine in it.

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post #17 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 01:45 PM
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you need torque. stroke it. A 393w would solve your problem and you could pull OD up the hills easily.
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you need torque. stroke it. A 393w would solve your problem and you could pull OD up the hills easily.
I believe it, but rebuilding the bottom end is way more work, time, and expense than I can do right now. Plus it's running so well! It doesn't leak any fluids, it's amazing. But a stroker would be a no-brainer if the engine needed rebuilt.

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post #19 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 03:19 PM
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you need torque. stroke it. A 393w would solve your problem and you could pull OD up the hills easily.
A stroker would be nice but lots more money. You can't do a stroker right and then throw stock heads on it. So he would whind up getting h/c/i andyway

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post #20 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 05:01 PM
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Great looking bronco! I'd really consider a turbo. It wouldn't be that hard considering all the room you have under that hood. I'm not sure if a 351 kit for a foxbody would bolt right on or not. It would require some research, but it's just barely beyond the 2k budget.
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post #21 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 05:33 PM
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You can make some power with a stock short block. The biggest issue is the piston to valve clearance with stock pistons. Seriously, I would do a AFR 185 head and custom hydraulic roller from Ed Curtis. Make sure you tell him your goals when having the camshaft done and save it for the last thing you order so its matched perfectly for your combo and your goals.
post #22 of 37 Old 07-14-2009, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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You can make some power with a stock short block. The biggest issue is the piston to valve clearance with stock pistons. Seriously, I would do a AFR 185 head and custom hydraulic roller from Ed Curtis. Make sure you tell him your goals when having the camshaft done and save it for the last thing you order so its matched perfectly for your combo and your goals.
This is exactly the way I'm leaning.

The factory heads and cam are my weakest link right now. Everything else has been upgraded.

I'll see how this works out. Perhaps it'll be enough??? This will never be a speed demon, it's way too top heavy and whiley. I just need to get up-to-speed on the highway better, and cruise uphill without drama.

I've replaced heads on my Stang before. I should be able to do it over a weekend. Never done a cam tho... I know basically what it entails. Anyone have a good write-up handy?

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You'll have more piston to valve clearance with a TFS than an AFR 185. They flow almost the same and the TFS is a little cheaper to boot.
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post #24 of 37 Old 07-15-2009, 01:13 PM
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Nice looking truck

What is your budget?

Forced induction is the way to go!!

Turbo would be the best in some peoples opinion, vortechs are very popular with the lightning crowd. Kenny Bell and whipples are better for low end boost. I am running a novi 2000 on my 94 lightning, I don't tow with it but just the blower alone makes a major improvements and then you could still add a cam and heads later. Many good deals on used blowers especially if you can fab your own brackets etc.

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post #25 of 37 Old 07-17-2009, 09:17 PM
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I agree with the 165 head, over 400hp can be had without looseing much low speed torque. and if you need more, roots supercharger with conservative boost 6-8psi. 600hp easy with tons of torque through entire rpm range.
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BTW, sick truck!!!
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post #27 of 37 Old 07-23-2009, 04:31 PM
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Pass on the blower. My Bronco weighed 5500 and change a few years back. Drop in a 460. They fit. Check out the Full Size Bronco forums.

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Pass on the blower. My Bronco weighed 5500 and change a few years back. Drop in a 460. They fit. Check out the Full Size Bronco forums.
Why pass on the blower? It's the easiest, most effective, least labor intensive way to bolt on 80 (or more) horsepower that I know of, not counting nitrous.

And, I'd bet you'll get better fuel mileage than with a 460, which is also going to add more weight to the truck than a blower will.

Plus, blowers are extremely easy to sell, if he changes his mind in the future.

On top of all that, if you ever need another 20 or 40 or 60 horsepower, you just change the pulley.

I agree with madramper. He knows what he's talking about.
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post #29 of 37 Old 07-26-2009, 10:21 AM
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Why pass on the blower? It's the easiest, most effective, least labor intensive way to bolt on 80 (or more) horsepower that I know of, not counting nitrous.
Nitrous??? On a truck???

Trucks need torque to get rolling, especially with large wheel/tire combos. That Vortech graph makes its power at 5000+ RPM. Trucks should make power from 1500 RPM to 3000 RPM, so that you don't have to run 500 RPM short of redline climbing a hill.

It's not a car, it's a 5000 pound brick.

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Nitrous??? On a truck???

Trucks need torque to get rolling, especially with large wheel/tire combos. That Vortech graph makes its power at 5000+ RPM. Trucks should make power from 1500 RPM to 3000 RPM, so that you don't have to run 500 RPM short of redline climbing a hill.

It's not a car, it's a 5000 pound brick.
Tell that to my 4400 pound lightning (with me in it) which runs high 11's on 10 psi and a 75 shot.

For the record, I was not advocating that he use nitrous. I said that a blower was the cheapest and easiest way to add a bunch of horsepower that I know of, aside from nitrous.

And look at that graph again. He's already making over 400 ft. lbs. of torque at about 2700 rpm. You don't think that's enough to get a brick moving????

Like madramper said, a stroker would ultimately be the best, but since the o.p. can't afford to do a complete engine right now, his best bet is to go with a blower that he will have no problem reselling later, when he's ready to do the complete engine.

I'm pretty sure that doing h/c/i is not going to get him anywhere near as much power and torque as a blower will, and its less work.

But, it's his truck (and a very nice one, at that), he can do what he wants with it.

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post #31 of 37 Old 07-27-2009, 11:30 AM
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Pass on the blower. My Bronco weighed 5500 and change a few years back. Drop in a 460. They fit. Check out the Full Size Bronco forums.
A 460 might have a lot of torque, but the stock engines don't put out much and upgrade parts are really expensive! You can make a ton of power for way less money with the small block!

Here are both of my graphs together to make it easier. The first is about as far as you can go NA without building a stroker. The second the same motor mods with the addition of 11 pounds from the little Vortech. Its not quite 5000#s, but I would guess its around 4400.

Here is my graph. Click on them for a larger view





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What do the torque and hp curves look like between 1000 and 3500 rpm?
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What do the torque and hp curves look like between 1000 and 3500 rpm?
Why? Are you going to loan him the money to build a stroker or put in a big block?
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Because I feel it's a waste of money to build an engine that has a torque peak 1000 RPM higher than the typical shift point. I'd rather have that area under the curve much lower in the RPM band.

That Lightning engine is very impressive for a vehicle that might drag race and shift at 5500-6000 RPM, but I'm not sure how anyone can say it's the right option for a vehicle with factory shift points in the 4600 RPM range and that weighs 1000 pounds more, rolling on 35s. That's all. A Bronco is not a Lightning.

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Well, I agree, but it appears he's considering only h/c/i or a blower, and between the two, he'll get much more out of the blower in every way. That's all I'm saying.
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