Roller to non-roller question - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 3Likes
  • 1 Post By bsfguy
  • 1 Post By strokeme
  • 1 Post By strokeme
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 25 Old 07-03-2019, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Roller to non-roller question

Ok, I know the firing order is different, and that the fuel injector order would follow that. Here's my ponderings...

I have a 2nd 5.0HO injector harness, so if I was to repin the salt and peppers to change the injector firing order, then wouldn't I be able to just drop in the 87 5.0 truck engine and run it for now?

I want to swap this engine in for now, as I want to rework the 86 HO to fit the E7s and change to a cam more suitable to low RPM torque for my CJ5. I'd rather not put the added money of a cam swap into the truck engine to run the HO firing order.

I am currently running the DX3 ECU (speed density) from an 88 Mk7 and an 86 5.0 HO with cast manifolds from a 93 F150.


78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 25 Old 07-04-2019, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Nobody ever work with this situation? No input?


78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #3 of 25 Old 07-04-2019, 09:02 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 163
I have never done it, I don't know why that would not work. I bet it would run, maybe not as good but still run with no wiring changes.

1987 Coupe: Stock 5.0, T5, 4.10s and a spool
russ3747 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 08:51 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toms River
Posts: 1
I'd just get a way to actually tune it like a TwEECer or Quarterhorse and change the firing order in the computer rather than swapping wires around since the oxygen sensors will also read off with the firing order mechanically altered instead of in the computer
JBacon302 is offline  
post #5 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 10:11 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Just change the firing order at the distributor or put a 351 cam in it. Done both you won't notice a difference
Kurts 85 * 5.0 is online now  
post #6 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurts 85 * 5.0 View Post
Just change the firing order at the distributor or put a 351 cam in it. Done both you won't notice a difference
But being the HO is sequential fired, the injectors would be firing off the old order, different from the engine.

As for tuning - I read that the DX3 is not tunable.

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #7 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 05:04 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutlass327 View Post
I'd rather not put the added money of a cam swap into the truck engine to run the HO firing order.
I find it unlikely that it would really cost all that much...there are probably thousands of useless stock 5.0HO cams sitting on shelves in garages on this forum. Surely somebody will send you one for no charge if you ask in the classifieds (if you pay the shipping or pick it up).

A stock 5.0HO cam will give you ~30hp over what that truck cam will do.
bsfguy is offline  
post #8 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsfguy View Post
I find it unlikely that it would really cost all that much...there are probably thousands of useless stock 5.0HO cams sitting on shelves in garages on this forum. Surely somebody will send you one for no charge if you ask in the classifieds (if you pay the shipping or pick it up).

A stock 5.0HO cam will give you ~30hp over what that truck cam will do.
But is an 87 truck engine roller capable?

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #9 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 05:37 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 435
That is a good question.

The block is probably roller ready....I know my 1990 truck 8.2" block was. You could always pull the intake and look.

Surely somebody here can give a definite answer to that...I'm gonna give you a solid 'probably' assuming the block was actually originally installed in an '87 F-150. It has a threded hole behind the intake for a knock sensor, right?
bsfguy is offline  
post #10 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 06:02 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsfguy View Post
That is a good question.

The block is probably roller ready....I know my 1990 truck 8.2" block was. You could always pull the intake and look.

Surely somebody here can give a definite answer to that...I'm gonna give you a solid 'probably' assuming the block was actually originally installed in an '87 F-150. It has a threded hole behind the intake for a knock sensor, right?
I will have to look. That would make things a lot easier! Is that only for the roller blocks? Save me from pulling the intake - I was thinking to try fitting it in with the larger intake and twin t-body if possible.


78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #11 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 07:46 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: south, us
Posts: 2,918
Ran a 5.0 flat tappet for years with HO EFI. It works fine. Just changed the wires around on the cap. Later on, repinned the injector harness, and could not tell any difference to speak of. It's been done many times, some guys do it using Mustang a9l's on 460-based engines

'92GT, 427" and '93 "LXVO" coupe
toddturbo is offline  
post #12 of 25 Old 07-05-2019, 07:51 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 435
I wouldn't take my word for it...I'm just assuming. You might be able to tell via casting numbers...maybe. Every search I find says something different.

Personally, I would pull the intake and look. I'd also wouldn't waste any effort with that truck intake...I'd expect hood clearance issues in the front.

$0.02
Cutlass327 likes this.
bsfguy is offline  
post #13 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 11:45 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Well, looks like I'll be finding out here soon... Found a puddle of oil under it when I got to my mother in law's today. If I have to fix a leak, may as well swap it.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #14 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
I'm figuring those 2 holes beside the SB and 29 are the spider bolt holes?

Would a head swap to the E7s be worth it?

Figure if I am swapping the cam, may as well build it how I want.

Please remember, this is in a CJ5 that rarely sees 5000rpm, but does low rpm stuff like dragging logs, trails, and easy backroad cruising between daily driver duty. I've never built anything for low end work before, I've gotten out of the go-fast stage of life as the tickets were getting too much... I have throttle pedal problems.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #15 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 05:42 PM
Authorized corral.net Advertiser
 
Trader Feedback: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 11,794
Roller block with flat tappet installed
Cutlass327 likes this.

Yes I am "Woody", Yes I am the Owner. 110% QUALITY Driven!
630-462-3978 Shop Direct
877-723-5487 Shop Toll-Free

TONS of Build Photos Ck at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Make sure to sign up for

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The single most exciting thing to happen to the small block ford community in a LONG TIME.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
strokeme is offline  
post #16 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 07:32 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutlass327 View Post
I'm figuring those 2 holes beside the SB and 29 are the spider bolt holes?

Would a head swap to the E7s be worth it?
Yes...are they threaded? If not, you may need to do that.

A 1987 truck motor should already have E7 heads from the factory.

Maybe I'm confused here. We were thinking about a roller cam conversion on the block pictured above so you can run it for now. As mentioned, you can do the cam swap or play with the wiring...my personal preference is the cam swap. I don't like playing with the wiring just because it can be easy to screw up the pins. You will need a set of stock lifters/pushrods to do it...and you've confirmed the block is ready for it.
bsfguy is offline  
post #17 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 08:50 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
It will run fine the way it is or put a 351 flat tappet cam in it
Kurts 85 * 5.0 is online now  
post #18 of 25 Old 07-07-2019, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsfguy View Post
Yes...are they threaded? If not, you may need to do that.

A 1987 truck motor should already have E7 heads from the factory.

Maybe I'm confused here. We were thinking about a roller cam conversion on the block pictured above so you can run it for now. As mentioned, you can do the cam swap or play with the wiring...my personal preference is the cam swap. I don't like playing with the wiring just because it can be easy to screw up the pins. You will need a set of stock lifters/pushrods to do it...and you've confirmed the block is ready for it.
Yeah, I'm getting a new oil pan, gaskets, etc and going to get a used HO cam/lifter/spider setup to put in. I want to make this engine into a HO, since it is a roller block anyway. I figured no use adapting if it will readily accept the proper cam, and I need to replace the truck front sump pan with the car style anyway. All new gaskets, no need to make it a temporary swap.

I didn't know if the trucks ran a different head casting than the Mustang E7, that's why I was curious there.

Would the push rods that are in the truck engine work, or will I need new for the roller setup? I forgot about that part... Happen to know what ones I'd need if I need new?

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #19 of 25 Old 07-12-2019, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
OK, tore it down, confirmed the E7-PA heads are on it. I forgot that I must have already posed about this once before, as I found this thread searching for my most recent one here.

Do I need to change valve springs like mentioned in the other? I have a set of E7 that were in a Mustang at Pullapart, and the springs look the same as the truck ones.

I was getting a new timing chain set while it is apart, no idea how many miles are on it but I will say there are obvious crosshatch marks still in the cylinders with no large ridge around the top. The timing set has the 3 keyways - 0*, +4*, -4* for cam timing. Advancing is supposed to lower the torque curve and add throttle response, at the risk of valve clearance. Would this be an issue with a stock cam? Would it be worth it? Once this engine is in, I am not pulling it out again unless something catastrophic happens, so changing cam timing is not going to happen once it is together. Remember, this is for a CJ5 that sees more trailer pulling/workhorse type use than racing...

Also, is there much difference in the timing covers/water pumps/pulleys between the truck and Mustang? I ask because I want to us the truck crank and waterpump pulleys due to the larger crank pulley on the truck engine. This would help with Alternator charging output at lower RPMs. It is like 1/4" or so larger diameter.

Being a roller block, it would be a 50oz balance too, correct?

I have been out of "custom" engine building for about 20 years or so, and then they were Chevy Small blocks for my 85 Cutlass. I am trying to remember and relearn a lot here in a short time, so I thank you all for your patience and time!

A couple links I had found about the cam timing:

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-t...ing-tips/28648

https://help.summitracing.com/app/an...ing-a-camshaft

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #20 of 25 Old 07-18-2019, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
What size are the bolts that hold the spider down?

About to start back on disassembly, as long as that water pump comes off without breaking any more bolts... 3 broken already... I hate galvanic corrosion.... I have had them soaking with PB'laster for about a week now...

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #21 of 25 Old Yesterday, 01:44 AM
Authorized corral.net Advertiser
 
Trader Feedback: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 11,794
1/4-20 same as the pan bolts
Cutlass327 likes this.

Yes I am "Woody", Yes I am the Owner. 110% QUALITY Driven!
630-462-3978 Shop Direct
877-723-5487 Shop Toll-Free

TONS of Build Photos Ck at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Make sure to sign up for

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The single most exciting thing to happen to the small block ford community in a LONG TIME.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
strokeme is offline  
post #22 of 25 Old Yesterday, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Thank you. It looks like I have to tap the holes. They're there, but not tapped.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #23 of 25 Old Yesterday, 09:41 PM
Authorized corral.net Advertiser
 
Trader Feedback: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 11,794
Those 2 holes are each directly above the 2 and 4 cam bearing, so dont get wild with the tap

Yes I am "Woody", Yes I am the Owner. 110% QUALITY Driven!
630-462-3978 Shop Direct
877-723-5487 Shop Toll-Free

TONS of Build Photos Ck at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Make sure to sign up for

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The single most exciting thing to happen to the small block ford community in a LONG TIME.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
strokeme is offline  
post #24 of 25 Old Today, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Cutlass327's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Massillon, OH
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokeme View Post
Those 2 holes are each directly above the 2 and 4 cam bearing, so dont get wild with the tap
Thank you for the warning, you probably just saved me a couple cam bearings!

78 CJ5 with 86 5.0HO DX3 ecu from 88 MK VII
Cutlass327 is offline  
post #25 of 25 Old Today, 01:25 PM
Authorized corral.net Advertiser
 
Trader Feedback: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago IL
Posts: 11,794
.500 under head length is all you need

Yes I am "Woody", Yes I am the Owner. 110% QUALITY Driven!
630-462-3978 Shop Direct
877-723-5487 Shop Toll-Free

TONS of Build Photos Ck at
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Make sure to sign up for

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
The single most exciting thing to happen to the small block ford community in a LONG TIME.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
strokeme is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in













Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome