Knocking after blower install - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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Knocking after blower install

Knock knock... who's there? Broken engine!

I recently installed a Vortech V3 SCi (7 psi) blower on my fairly fresh (3 years, ~3K miles) stock shortblock. Had it professionally dyno tuned, drove it maybe 200 miles (I drove it pretty hard a few times to enjoy my newly added power but never revved over 6K, it ran great the whole time, and most of those miles were just cruising on the freeway), and now the engine or maybe trans has a disturbing knock that I can feel through the shifter and clearly hear when driving, especially when accelerating. I first felt the knocking while driving the car through the shifter, and at first thought the trans or clutch was the issue. As it warms up, the knocking becomes more audible, and I can now replicate it in neutral at around 1500-2000 RPM. Clutch in/out doesn't make much difference. Revving higher than that, the engine starts to vibrate and feels like there's an imbalance that I don't recall before. I can't really hear much outside but then again the engine and blower drown out lesser sounds.

Oil pressure is low at hot idle - around 10 PSI per my Autometer mechanical gauge - but around 40 PSI hot on the road at 3K+ RPM or more. I am pretty sure that the hot idle oil pressure used to be around 20 PSI or so with a stock type pump, because now at a glance the oil pressure gauge almost looks like it's at 0. Oddly, I noticed while I was driving that the oil pressure would actually slightly dip when the engine is under load by like 5 psi.

I pulled the blower belt and serp belt then disabled 1 cylinder at a time but it made no difference. The harmonic balancer (Summit) looks fine, and I checked the tightness of the balancer and crank pulley bolts. This weekend I plan to get under the car with a stethoscope to listen all over and determine the source, but I have to keep the car mobile so I can't start tearing it apart.

Thoughts of what this could be? Given the feel and sound, I'd be leaning towards the transmission, but the oil pressure issue says engine. I've done some research and have some alarming theories, but I know I probably can't determine much without doing a post mortem which I can't do right now.

Here's a video from inside the car. Hopefully...




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post #2 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 08:07 AM
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upload to youtube


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post #3 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:10 AM
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Have you checked the oil yet to see if it has the appearance of a milkshake,indicating a possible blown head gasket??
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post #4 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:12 AM
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If you depress the clutch and the noise id still the it's coming from the engine. Sorry to say, not good.
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post #5 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:17 AM
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Just pull the oil filter and cut the top off. If it's a bearing, it will be in the filter.

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post #6 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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upload to youtube
Sorry, thought it was public. Changed the link to Youtube.

Oil and coolant both look good. I plan to pull the oil filter and cut it open.

Depressing the clutch does seem to slightly change the knocking, but it's definitely still there.

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post #7 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 10:05 AM
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Agree on the oil filter. The 10 psi of oil pressure is the most alarming thing. Seems like a rod issue because of the knocking and the imbalance. Time to get the engine hoist out of the corner sir.
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post #8 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 11:20 AM
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check for crap from bearing in filter.. then go from there.
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post #9 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 11:43 AM
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Remove the belt

Start pulling on the crank pulley

Then start without the belt

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post #10 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Remove the belt

Start pulling on the crank pulley

Then start without the belt
I've already pulled the belt and it made no difference. What direction are you suggesting I pull the crank pulley? In/out to check endplay?


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post #11 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 01:37 PM
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axial , up and down

poster here had the crank snap, it wobbled but ran

can happen with belt tension at the end of the snout

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post #12 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:14 PM
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LTDScott said, "This weekend I plan to get under the car with a stethoscope to listen all over and determine the source, but I have to keep the car mobile so I can't start tearing it apart."
It might not be a good idea to keep driving it, if that's what you mean by "mobile".
Just speculating; maybe the slight change in sound when pushing the clutch indicates a thrust bearing issue?
Good luck. I hope it's not major.

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post #13 of 28 Old 05-03-2019, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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It might not be a good idea to keep driving it, if that's what you mean by "mobile".
No, I just meant I have to be able to roll it in and out of the garage to make room, so it can't just sit on jackstands forever. I agree that I shouldn't drive it.
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post #14 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Confirmed the engine is toast. The oil and filter are copperific.





Tried to move the front of the crank up and down and I didn't feel any movement, so I think I can rule out a broken crank. I then checked in/out end play and it's double the factory spec at .016" or so. Confirmed this multiple times. So I guess the thrust bearings may be done.



I know the only way to really tell what happened is to pull the engine out and do a postmortem, but I don't have the time or motivation to jump into this right now. I'm pretty demoralized, and I also need to devote most of my free time this year to resurrect my old Lemons car to race again. This may decide whether I want to try the blower again or change to a different setup. I'll update this when I dive into it more.

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post #15 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 08:22 PM
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That knock is usually a rod. The thrust rarely knocks because the crank is being forced forward at all times, the thrust bearing face that is facing the trans will be the worn half, never the face facing the radiator.

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post #16 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 08:58 PM
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That really sux.. I'd look at the oil pickup 1st. Maybe it was to low or clogged..
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post #17 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 11:12 PM
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Damnit man.On a 3k mile engine too.Is it the oem engine that you pulled and rebuilt yourself or is it a reman or new engine that you bought then installed??Any type of warranty??
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post #18 of 28 Old 05-05-2019, 11:22 PM
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warranty? for real?

you asked that?
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post #19 of 28 Old 05-06-2019, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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One thing I didn't mention is that I got underneath the car while my wife was holding the throttle at 1500 RPM or so where the knocking is most prevalent inside the car and I still can't hear it outside the car at all. I used a mechanic's stethoscope and poked all around the oil pan, including at the very front and back of the crank, and I couldn't hear it at all. Then I started probing the transmission and the noise definitely seems to be loudest from there. The knocking feeling does change slightly with clutch in vs out but it's absolutely still there with the clutch in, so based on that I don't think the trans is the culprit. Still weird that the knocking mostly seems to be coming from there though.

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post #20 of 28 Old 05-06-2019, 01:32 PM
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have parts on hand.. pull motor in the early morning.. disassemble and soak everything in degreaser.... use a good pressure washer and plenty of elbow grease... take a lunch break... at 12:30 start reassembly with good parts.... (you know you will have to have at least one rod..and a crank... i'd have a spare set handy to put on... along with a reman crank from a parts house..) finish assembly by 3-4.. reinstall... by 6 you should be hooking everything up and topping off fluids.. by 8 test drive... by 9 - 10 come in.. eat supper.. and post on the internet.
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post #21 of 28 Old 05-06-2019, 06:09 PM
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That much copper in the oil filter tells me all I need to know.

Main, cam, and rod bearings have copper in them.

Remove engine regardless, disassemble & find the source for all that copper. You'll probably find a main or rod bearing gone.

Or just keep running it until it decides that it can't take it anymore, kicks a rod out or whatever, which would likely destroy the block too (if it's not already), and possibly the heads.

Having destroyed my share of engines, one in particular stands out. 302/5.0. Broke something....who knows what....when torn down, two rods were twisted around each other like decorative wrought iron. Part of the camshaft was laying on the track. Came out the back fo the block, destroyed the torque converter, pump, trans case, bellhousing, block, both heads, intake manifold, pieces dinged the bottom of the valve covers....basically absolutely nothing was salvageable, not even the oil pump bolts (both bent). There was not a drop of oil or coolant INSIDE the engine, it was all on the track. I knew it was hurt. Decided to keep running it, and it wasn't having it.
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post #22 of 28 Old 05-06-2019, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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I'm not gonna rush it. Frankly having this failure right after putting in a solid month of work has taken the wind out of my sails so I want to take a break. I historically move at a slow pace because adulting. Hmm. I haven't really looked at the recent timeline of my car. Well, might as well post here so I can reference it later haha

4/18/15: Bought rebuilt shortblock and Vortech blower in the morning. Suffered electrical fire and died in the afternoon.
4/25/15: Old engine pulled out.
4/26/16: New engine bolted in.
6/30/16: First time driving with new engine.
3/5/19: Vortech supercharger installation started.
4/12/19: Vortech supercharger installation and tune completed.
4/23/19: Knocking

So clearly I'm not one to rush through a project, and I want to devote my free time to resurrecting my mothballed Lemons racer, so it's a choice I'm making.

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post #23 of 28 Old 05-07-2019, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDScott View Post
I'm not gonna rush it. Frankly having this failure right after putting in a solid month of work has taken the wind out of my sails so I want to take a break. I historically move at a slow pace because adulting. Hmm. I haven't really looked at the recent timeline of my car. Well, might as well post here so I can reference it later haha

4/18/15: Bought rebuilt shortblock and Vortech blower in the morning. Suffered electrical fire and died in the afternoon.
4/25/15: Old engine pulled out.
4/26/16: New engine bolted in.
6/30/16: First time driving with new engine.
3/5/19: Vortech supercharger installation started.
4/12/19: Vortech supercharger installation and tune completed.
4/23/19: Knocking [IMG class=inlineimg]/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]

So clearly I'm not one to rush through a project, and I want to devote my free time to resurrecting my mothballed Lemons racer, so it's a choice I'm making.
Sounds like my summer last year. One thing after another. I feel your pain. It’s so discouraging, but something always calls me back into the car game(or battle).

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post #24 of 28 Old 05-08-2019, 04:09 AM
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because now at a glance the oil pressure gauge almost looks like it's at 0. Oddly, I noticed while I was driving that the oil pressure would actually slightly dip when the engine is under load by like 5 psi.
When you take it apart, I would carefully inspect all the main journals and webbing...some knocking with that much power could easily crack a stock block.

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Originally Posted by LTDScott View Post
I then checked in/out end play and it's double the factory spec at .016" or so. Confirmed this multiple times. So I guess the thrust bearings may be done.
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The thrust rarely knocks because the crank is being forced forward at all times, the thrust bearing face that is facing the trans will be the worn half, never the face facing the radiator.
I had an automatic trans take out my motor/thrust once...The motor didn't make a single noise but there was over a 1/4" of endplay. I only found out because I kept throwing fan belts...had I gone with electric fans my situation may have gotten worse.
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post #25 of 28 Old 05-08-2019, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
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I'm not gonna rush it. Frankly having this failure right after putting in a solid month of work has taken the wind out of my sails so I want to take a break. I historically move at a slow pace because adulting. Hmm. I haven't really looked at the recent timeline of my car. Well, might as well post here so I can reference it later haha

4/18/15: Bought rebuilt shortblock and Vortech blower in the morning. Suffered electrical fire and died in the afternoon.
4/25/15: Old engine pulled out.
4/26/16: New engine bolted in.
6/30/16: First time driving with new engine.
3/5/19: Vortech supercharger installation started.
4/12/19: Vortech supercharger installation and tune completed.
4/23/19: Knocking

So clearly I'm not one to rush through a project, and I want to devote my free time to resurrecting my mothballed Lemons racer, so it's a choice I'm making.
it's not rushing through a project... just fix it. it's not rocket science and wont take too long... just got to get started and keep after it at a good pace that day and then your done.. one day tops for what i'm suggesting. if your close to mississippi I'll help you.
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post #26 of 28 Old 05-08-2019, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDScott View Post
because now at a glance the oil pressure gauge almost looks like it's at 0. Oddly, I noticed while I was driving that the oil pressure would actually slightly dip when the engine is under load by like 5 psi.
When you take it apart, I would carefully inspect all the main journals and webbing...some knocking with that much power could easily crack a stock block.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTDScott View Post
I then checked in/out end play and it's double the factory spec at .016" or so. Confirmed this multiple times. So I guess the thrust bearings may be done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by strokeme View Post
The thrust rarely knocks because the crank is being forced forward at all times, the thrust bearing face that is facing the trans will be the worn half, never the face facing the radiator.
I had an automatic trans take out my motor/thrust once...The motor didn't make a single noise but there was over a 1/4" of endplay. I only found out because I kept throwing fan belts...had I gone with electric fans my situation may have gotten worse.
ya, the 4th counterweight starts grinding itself against the thrust main cap

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post #27 of 28 Old 05-08-2019, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, while researching possible causes, the dipping oil pressure under load pointed to a possible cracked block, so I'll definitely be taking a close look when I get the motivation to pull the engine out.

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post #28 of 28 Old 05-08-2019, 11:04 AM
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Typically the crack starts at a main bolt hole, usually 1-2-3 main cap, then runs to the cam tunnel
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