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post #1 of 92 Old 04-10-2019, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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white smoke on new 331

Built up a NA DSS 331 with new promaxx heads, and have about 40 miles on it so far. I am noticing a puff of white smoke at startup and also puffs under hard acceleration. It looks like I have consumed about 1 quart of oil in this mileage as well. The car has great vacuum about 23inhg and idles and runs well. I checked the coolant and it doesn't look tainted and is not low. I noticed the soot on both tailpipes is somewhat moist or fresh and wipes on my fingers easily. The one thing that I am unsure of is that I used the fms head gasket kit and bolt combo which are torque to yield and im not sure if I should have used regular bolts. Anyways not sure where to start looking and hoping for suggestions, thanks for the help

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post #2 of 92 Old 04-10-2019, 10:36 PM
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is it fuel or water vapor?


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #3 of 92 Old 04-10-2019, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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I don't smell coolant, nor fuel out of the tailpipes. When I saw the puffs of smoke, I placed my finger inside the tailpipe and noticed soot on my finger but cant for certain say it smells like oil, coolant or fuel. I guess ill pull the plugs and maybe that can help point me... I had used Walmart super tech 10w30 conventional for this initial fill.
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post #4 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 01:29 AM
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How's your tune? Overall combination? Seems like a lot of oil to be losing in that time. No leaks present?
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post #5 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
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I cant see any visible oil, fuel or coolant anywhere in the engine bay. Coolant is not going down, just oil consumption seems a bit bad during this first 50 miles. Ironic thing is the vacuum is rock solid at 23 in at 750rpms and doesn't bounce at all. Car idles rock solid and accelerates well. Im using a tweecer to tune the car and im running a tad rich right now according to the AF meter I have (about 13:1).

have a dss 331, promaxx heads, steeda 18 cam with 1.7 scorpion rockers, TFS street intake,75mm MAF, 70mm TB, BBK shortys with OR xpipe.
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post #6 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaks38 View Post
I cant see any visible oil, fuel or coolant anywhere in the engine bay. Coolant is not going down, just oil consumption seems a bit bad during this first 50 miles. Ironic thing is the vacuum is rock solid at 23 in at 750rpms and doesn't bounce at all. Car idles rock solid and accelerates well. Im using a tweecer to tune the car and im running a tad rich right now according to the AF meter I have (about 13:1).

have a dss 331, promaxx heads, steeda 18 cam with 1.7 scorpion rockers, TFS street intake,75mm MAF, 70mm TB, BBK shortys with OR xpipe.
log lambse and afr

they should be closely matched

but it sounds like your fuel is not dialed in

forget the plug looking, you have datalogging

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #7 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 11:13 AM
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I have the same issue with my new 347.

I’m putting on an oil seperator this weekend.

What are you using for PCV? Have you retorqued the Lower intake now that you’ve had a bunch of heat cycles? I was surprised how much my lower needed to be tightened after running it for 75 mines...

1989 GT - 347 build in progress
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post #8 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the tips. Ill check the tweecer logs for AF and lambdas. Since im naturally aspirated, i just used the original PCV mesh and valve at the back of the intake. Just retained the oem factory setup. I havent checked lower intake bolt torque but sounds like a good idea. I had initially torqued the lower intake bolts to 15ftlb and double checked them.
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post #9 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 02:46 PM
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LAMBSE 1 AND 2

NOT LAMBDA

It’s a ford

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #10 of 92 Old 04-11-2019, 07:45 PM
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A quart in the first 50 miles is an alarming amount of oil to see disappear. You don’t have a wideband inside the car?

Oil separators are good no matter whether you’re running forced induction or not.


1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
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post #11 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 01:11 AM Thread Starter
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Ended up removing plugs 1 and 5 which are obviously on different banks, found both plugs have heavy carbon and oil deposits on them. Im guessing the rings must be the issue as I cant imagine the valve seals being bad on both heads given they were new heads. Guess my only hope is to drive the car in hopes it gets better. Ive already tried breaking it in by running it up to 3500rpms and engine breaking several times.
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post #12 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 04:19 AM
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FYI final torque for lower is 23-25 ft lbs.

15 ft pounds is only the first torque value

Keep us posted. If car is not overly lean you need to give the car some hard pulls. You definitely don’t want a rich AFR on a new motor while rings are seating.

Use break-in or or only conventional oil for 500-1000 miles before going synthetic

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Thanks for the tips. Ill check the tweecer logs for AF and lambdas. Since im naturally aspirated, i just used the original PCV mesh and valve at the back of the intake. Just retained the oem factory setup. I havent checked lower intake bolt torque but sounds like a good idea. I had initially torqued the lower intake bolts to 15ftlb and double checked them.

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post #13 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 09:12 AM
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heads were new from a machine shop or from a box?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #14 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 12:25 PM
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you could do a leak-down test, it would confirm the rings sir.
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post #15 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 09:50 PM
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i don't get the whole driving a car a million miles before going over 3500 rpm. I broke my motor in 10 years ago by slapping on a vortech and dropping the car off at the dyno. 90k miles later, the re-ringed 302 still doesn't need a quart of oil between changes.

listen to indy and fix your fuel problems if the white smoke is fuel, then go break the motor in.

edit: don't get me wrong, i changed the oil a few times before dynoing the car, but it didn't take putting a bunch of miles on it to do it. i just wanted the filter to catch whatever metal it could before i took it.

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post #16 of 92 Old 04-12-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by a91what View Post
you could do a leak-down test, it would confirm the rings sir.
you suspect compression rings are not controlling oil?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #17 of 92 Old 04-13-2019, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
you suspect compression rings are not controlling oil?
Could be a number of things causing it if he is burning oil, when these issues come up I like to see a methodical approach rather than guessing at it. A static compression test will lie if he is burning oil, but a leakdown test will at least tell him if the rings have seated or if he has a single offending cylinder. Easier and cheaper than pulling parts off to inspect.

to the OP do you have a picture of the plugs when you pulled them?
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post #18 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 12:00 AM Thread Starter
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Gentlemen, thanks very much for your input. So I have attached a pic of cylinder plugs 1,2,3 and 5. It was too cumbersome due to the equal length to get to the others so quickly but you can see the fouling.

So today I saw what appeared to be water spewing out of my tailpipes. I decided to undo my mufflers and noticed about 2-3 oz of what appears to be water at the inlet of each muffler. I cant smell coolant and what is odd is that my coolant level has not changed in the last 60 miles of driving. I did change the oil and only 3.5 quarts came out. I don't see oil in the coolant and vice versa. However I ran a inspection camera into the spark plug holes and noticed maybe what amounts to a drop of oil which is only resting on the relief cutouts on both banks Pistons 1,5.

Ironically I have a vacuum gauge and it now shows 24in of vacuum at 750 rpms up by 1in from a few days ago. The vacuum is solid and never bounces at all. I gunned the engine at idle to 3k and saw the vacuum reach 2in and then quickly drop to about 25 and then come back up to 24in and the vacuum stays solid at idle. Although I don't have a compression tester, I was wondering if vacuum is a good gauge of piston ring health?

Although I have a tweecer, I cant get my datalogger to work but know I have a issue with my tune as well..

Thanks again,
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post #19 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 05:59 AM
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Well judging by your spark plugs I guess we know where some of your oil is going now.

1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
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post #20 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 06:38 AM
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What type of intake are you running and before you installed the lower intake did you put the oil baffle for the pcv valve on in the back of the intake with the 2 pound in rivots? Not only do you need the mesh screen below the pcv valve but I've seen people forget to put the metal oil baffle in before they put the lower intake on and causes huge oil consumption issues. Also wondering what type of valve seals the pro-max heads use? The Teflon valve seals are the best these days.
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post #21 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 06:44 AM
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Water in the muffler pipes and tail pipes is condensation.
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post #22 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 08:41 AM
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what maf, injectors are you running?

what did you change in the tune for start up?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #23 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks again, I have a TFS street intake system and I did install the mesh screen prior to installing the PCV valve, both are new. As to the baffle, I am not sure if it was installed, ill try to run my bore camera into it. For what its worth, I don't see any oil behind the throttle body or the area leading into the intake tracts. The promax heads use viton seals.

As to my tune, I have basically loaded the supplied MAF curve from my prom75 maf, 42lb injectors-changed the injector slopes to 42,50, inj offset battery voltage rescaled for 42lbs, inj breakpoint at 2.5, injector timing ranges from 370-484 since cam is 220/226 duration. Cranking fuel pulse width at .45 and displacement changed to 331. Basically the rest is left alone but only spark tables are bumped by 6-8 since I have aluminum heads.
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post #24 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 11:13 AM
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What kind of rings? If you ran excessively rich for the first 30 minutes and didn't do much more than idling, you probably washed down the bores and the rings didn't seat. I've heard old timers say take it out, romp the #### out of it, in 2nd or 3rd, then let off and let it coast under engine braking...the huge vacuum help keep oil on the cylinder walls for the rings. I've never had to try that though.
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post #25 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaks38 View Post
Thanks again, I have a TFS street intake system and I did install the mesh screen prior to installing the PCV valve, both are new. As to the baffle, I am not sure if it was installed, ill try to run my bore camera into it. For what its worth, I don't see any oil behind the throttle body or the area leading into the intake tracts. The promax heads use viton seals.

As to my tune, I have basically loaded the supplied MAF curve from my prom75 maf, 42lb injectors-changed the injector slopes to 42,50, inj offset battery voltage rescaled for 42lbs, inj breakpoint at 2.5, injector timing ranges from 370-484 since cam is 220/226 duration. Cranking fuel pulse width at .45 and displacement changed to 331. Basically the rest is left alone but only spark tables are bumped by 6-8 since I have aluminum heads.
assuming the injectors are good

have you been able to get it to operating temp, and log fuel trims? long and short

i would double check your tune, change the inj timing back to stock settings

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #26 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 03:48 PM
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Also important that the 3/8" vacuum hose running from the pcv valve to the upper intake are going to the right location. The 3/8" hose should go from pcv valve to above driver side valve cover port underside of upper intake just like the same location the stock upper intake vacuum hoses are located. If its white smoke its an oiling problem. Fuel injected engines hardly ever wash out the rings.
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post #27 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 03:53 PM
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In my opinion 42lb injectors are too big for N/A 331. I'd swap them out for 30lb.
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post #28 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaks38 View Post
Thanks again, I have a TFS street intake system and I did install the mesh screen prior to installing the PCV valve, both are new. As to the baffle, I am not sure if it was installed, ill try to run my bore camera into it. For what its worth, I don't see any oil behind the throttle body or the area leading into the intake tracts. The promax heads use viton seals.

As to my tune, I have basically loaded the supplied MAF curve from my prom75 maf, 42lb injectors-changed the injector slopes to 42,50, inj offset battery voltage rescaled for 42lbs, inj breakpoint at 2.5, injector timing ranges from 370-484 since cam is 220/226 duration. Cranking fuel pulse width at .45 and displacement changed to 331. Basically the rest is left alone but only spark tables are bumped by 6-8 since I have aluminum heads.
assuming the injectors are good

have you been able to get it to operating temp, and log fuel trims? long and short

i would double check your tune, change the inj timing back to stock settings
I didn’t do anything for injector timing, just switchted the slopes and offset. Maybe a bit more but if I remember I left timing alone.

Op: I’d try Indy’s advise and see what you get.

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In my opinion 42lb injectors are too big for N/A 331. I'd swap them out for 30lb.
I run 44lb’ers on a n/a 347; They work great. Plenty of people run bigger injectors on n/a applicatons without problem. The op’s combo probably doesn’t need much bigger than 30lb, but bigger really won’t hurt as long as they’re tuned for.

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347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
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post #29 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 10:45 PM
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42lb injectors will support 672hp when ran at a 100% duty cycle & 571hp at a safe 85% duty cycle,on a NA application.
30lb injectors will support 400hp at a 100% duty cycle & 340hp at a safe 85% duty cycle,on a NA application.
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post #30 of 92 Old 04-14-2019, 11:41 PM
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irrelevant, poster has a tuning device

and entered the xfer function

deka 80s would be my choice though

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #31 of 92 Old 04-15-2019, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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My fuel injectors and tune were carried over from my prior 302 but now I have a 331. Ive checked the vacuum hose routing and its rock solid. I do think I maybe missing the intake oil baffle plate but I have the actual mesh screen in place and as of now I see absolutely no oil being pulled into the throttle or intake. What behoves me is that im getting a rock solid 24inhg of vacuum at idle which is very high for a aftermarket cam.

I had a local machine shop rebuild the short block portion only and it was a complete DSS stroker 331 kit with their rings.

I ended up bore scoping 2 pistons on each bank and all 4 cylinders look the same. The walls and piston faces look very clean and I don't see any water or carbon in them. I just saw a small drop of oil on each piston which had cavitated upon the piston relief which im guessing is some oil getting through but it is just a drop and consistent on all pistons. No puddles of water or oil. I even cranked the engine a few times hoping to see water shooting out of the spark plug holes but to no avail.

I drained the oil and have put in some 10w-40 conventional and will try to break the car in based on some of the advice here and change the injector timing back to stock.

Worse comes to worse, ill have to do a leak down..

Thanks again guys for the help.
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post #32 of 92 Old 04-15-2019, 01:42 AM
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no datalogging?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #33 of 92 Old 04-15-2019, 02:31 AM
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Wow, there is some really bad advice in here.. There is no reason to not get the largest injectors you can. Siemens 80s are the smallest injector i would put in a 302. Why buy injectors more than once? Any tuner worth a crap can tune 80s on a 302. The injector size isnt the issue.. If its super rich, maybe you washed out the rings... Try getting fuel dialed in.. You dont need a wideband and use can use your narrow band to verify the wideband by dialing in fuel. You can use the KAMRF corrections to dial it in. That vacuum reading is nuts though.. I dont see how that is even possible.. Does the vacuum act normal when driving?

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post #34 of 92 Old 04-15-2019, 07:57 AM
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if you're missing that oil baffle on the underside of the lower intake it will suck the oil right through the mesh screen through the intake and right into combustion chamber that explains oil on top of the pistons you scoped. If you have a stock intake laying around you can take the oil baffle off of that and also the rivots and slightly modify it and bend it and re install it on your trick flow lower intake. Done it on a tfs R"" 351 lower with the same issue the customers car brought to me had the worst oil problem I've ever seen without that baffle. Not sure if you can call Trickflow and have them send you another baffle with new rivots.
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post #35 of 92 Old 04-15-2019, 09:52 AM
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Since everyone is guessing here, this is my guess. The valve stem seals were not installed correctly. They may have looked like they were when you installed the heads, but now that the engine has run the seals have pulled up off of the guides and it is allowing engine oil to get pulled down the intake guides and getting burned in the cylinders. Take a valve cover off and inspect. It takes half an hr to verify. Worth the time to cross that possibility off of the list of things it could be.

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