My turbo fox is Running rough.... - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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My turbo fox is Running rough....

I知 going nuts here with this thing. I think I知 overlooking something stupid but hopefully someone might remind me what I知 missing here. Long story short, I blew headgaskets last fall, ( engine is basically a stock shortblock, ported GT40 heads/ intake, acufab 70mm throttle body, 3 Pro M blow through tube, and On3 turbo kit and tuning with PMS series 4). I pulled the engine to fix head gaskets and replace an oil pan gasket. When i put the vehicle back together it runs but sort of rough. It will basicallly fall flat on its face when I try to accelerate under a load. I can watch the wide band go from super lean to pig rich, and that痴 when it will run and cut out. With the spout out it will not idle when it痴 warm.
I have so far:
- verified fuel pressure ( 40psi with vacuum line disconnected, 35 at idle, connected)
- smoke tested for vacuum leaks
- verified O2 sensors are plugged in lol
-maf is plugged in and reading
-Cleaned salt and pepper connectors
-Replaced cap and rotor
-I put new plugs in with the engine ( Autolite Iridium)
-set tps voltage to .97
-Set base timing at 10 degrees
- removed and cleaned Maf
- verify engine grounds

I do not have any codes because my check engine light bulb doesn稚 work and I don稚 have a obd1 scan tool. I am going to probably clean the maf again and triple double check. What else am I missing here? Thanks in advance


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post #2 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:46 PM
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How was driveability before you blew the head gasket? Has it ever ran good? What is new since the head gasket repair?

If this was just put together I would lean towards the mass air meter.

If it ran like craps before blowing the hg I would remove the pms and run it and see how well it runs with your current meter and go from there.


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post #3 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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It ran real good before the head gaskets, ( too good lol). I swapped:
-camshaft, went from an E cam to stocker with 1.7. Rockers
-Throttle body ,75mm acufab to 70mm
- upper intake, cobra to tubular gt40

Pretty sure that痴 it. I知 just wondering if there is some trash blowing around and contaminating my Maf? I don稚 know. I知 running out of ideas.


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post #4 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:55 PM
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check the tune

log 02 and fuel trims

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #5 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:57 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
check the tune

log 02 and fuel trims


I don稚 have a way to datalog but I can check what the O2s are reading and let you know. Cold/ warm, left/ right if that helps.


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post #6 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 08:58 PM
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Since it ran well prior to hg, I would think your meter is close enough to be fine tuned by the pms.

Why did the hg blow? Too much timing, lean, etc?

I know you checked, but I would look extra hard for a vacuum leak.

Also, I like to check each header an inch to from the head for consistent temps with an infrared thermometer.

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post #7 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rob View Post
Since it ran well prior to hg, I would think your meter is close enough to be fine tuned by the pms.



Why did the hg blow? Too much timing, lean, etc?



I know you checked, but I would look extra hard for a vacuum leak.



Also, I like to check each header an inch to from the head for consistent temps with an infrared thermometer.


That痴 a great idea about checking temps on the headers. I will do that tomorrow. I will check again for a vacuum leak. I might pull the plugs also. This thing is weird. Almost like it痴 low on fuel, then almost clears up but the data it痴 showing me on the PMS screen all looks good. Either way it痴 running. That痴 when I figured it had to be fuel related. Put the gauge on and that looks good also. I could have sworn it was a low fuel pressure issue but the gauge proved me wrong I guess.


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post #8 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 09:16 PM
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Ist ideas...
Long time ago I had an issue where the fitting on the tubular bottom was hitting the drivers valve cover and I had to grind the vacuum fitting down to clear. That is without a spacer. Tubular can also be tight on the injectors without a spacer.

I have found so many issues with my infrared thermometer. Much more accurate than my fingers.

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post #9 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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I知 running an intake spacer just for that reason with that same fitting your talking about. Haha


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post #10 of 48 Old 04-09-2019, 10:23 PM
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Check plug gaps.

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post #11 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 12:03 AM
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If you've still got the oem wiring harness & obd1 port in place,you don't need a scanner or the cel to run the code tests.Just use a jumper wire & 12v test light.
1) Connect one end of the jumper wire to the STI terminal and connect the other end of the jumper wire to the SIGNAL RETURN terminal (@ the diagnostic port)
2) Now connect the test light clip to the (+) battery post/terminal and insert the test light probe into the STO terminal (@ the diagnostic port)
3) Turn the koeo & the code test will begin.
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post #12 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2rock View Post
If you've still got the oem wiring harness & obd1 port in place,you don't need a scanner or the cel to run the code tests.Just use a jumper wire & 12v test light.

1) Connect one end of the jumper wire to the STI terminal and connect the other end of the jumper wire to the SIGNAL RETURN terminal (@ the diagnostic port)

2) Now connect the test light clip to the (+) battery post/terminal and insert the test light probe into the STO terminal (@ the diagnostic port)

3) Turn the koeo & the code test will begin.


I値l try that tonight, thanks


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post #13 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightlaundry View Post
Check plug gaps.


I gapped then at .030


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post #14 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 04:11 PM
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Make sure youve got the hego ground wire attached to a rear intake bolt,rear cylinder head
bolt (i.e. - crossover pipe bolt) etc.It'll trigger the o2 sensors to read lean if its not connected.Its the orange wire with a ring terminal on the injector harness.Im not familiar with how the pms works compared to the factory ecu,but if it doesn't have a screen you can look at to view live data,I would ohm out the ect sensor,with the engine cold & hot.If the ect is bad,it will tell the ecu that coolant temp is much warmer than what it truly is and that will trigger the ecu to lean the fuel mixture.Were you ever able to pinpoint the true cause of the blown gaskets?? Could it have been caused by a bad adjustment in the tuning?? I always thought it was usually just one gasket that would bite the dust when an engine suffered from a detonation episode,but you got had a double whammy.I would definitely check the old plugs for lean signs.Make sure youve got your pcv system set up correctly too,so that it wont pressurize the crankcase.If there is enough unmetered air allowed into the engine,it will also trigger a lean condition.Just like a breathered oil filler cap does if the pcv system is setup in stock form.
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post #15 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFraser27 View Post
I gapped then at .030


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When I got my motor running, I went .030 as well. After awhile, it started to break up in boost just like you described. I pulled them and a few of them opened up as much a .004 at only like 3k miles. That seems to be the limit for my setup.

I'll just go .020 with this next set.
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post #16 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2rock View Post
Make sure youve got the hego ground wire attached to a rear intake bolt,rear cylinder head

bolt (i.e. - crossover pipe bolt) etc.It'll trigger the o2 sensors to read lean if its not connected.Its the orange wire with a ring terminal on the injector harness.Im not familiar with how the pms works compared to the factory ecu,but if it doesn't have a screen you can look at to view live data,I would ohm out the ect sensor,with the engine cold & hot.If the ect is bad,it will tell the ecu that coolant temp is much warmer than what it truly is and that will trigger the ecu to lean the fuel mixture.Were you ever able to pinpoint the true cause of the blown gaskets?? Could it have been caused by a bad adjustment in the tuning?? I always thought it was usually just one gasket that would bite the dust when an engine suffered from a detonation episode,but you got had a double whammy.I would definitely check the old plugs for lean signs.Make sure youve got your pcv system set up correctly too,so that it wont pressurize the crankcase.If there is enough unmetered air allowed into the engine,it will also trigger a lean condition.Just like a breathered oil filler cap does if the pcv system is setup in stock form.


Yea I did actually only have one side leak, cylinders 3,4. I can monitor the O2s live on the PMS. I took a couple of snap shots with my phone of it today. I had a small window of time between work and work lol. I removed he Maf again and cleaned it again just to be 100% sure that wasn稚 it. Car ran a little bit better then it started to act up again once I tried to give it throttle. I checked header temps when it was warm and all were within 30 degrees of each other. Around 380-400 degrees right after the header flange. I really didn稚 find anything else new today. More dead ends with the small amount of time I had.


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post #17 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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I still want to check codes, and I want to pull the plugs and see what they look like. It acts like it a fuel delivery problem.... I might check the fuel lines and rails to make sure there isn稚 a restriction. I would figure I壇 have fluctuated fuel pressures but who knows at this point.
This picture is of when this thing was running rough. I was tipping the throttle in at 5% and it wouldn稚 rev up. Maybe this would help someone? I do t know


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post #18 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Incase someone doesn稚 know what these are


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post #19 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 06:46 PM
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The 02s show .00v. It should be around .5v

Why is your timing 35 degrees at 900rpm?

Try to disconnect the 02s and see if it runs any richer.

Vacuum seems low?

Is tps adjusted properly in the pms?

It has been 11-12 years since I ran a PMS, it's coming back slowly lol

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post #20 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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This is how it looked when it cleared up. Idle is normally around 800


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post #21 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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Maf voltage .19? That is low.

I would reset the stock ECU, disconnect the 02s than tune the PMS to give you 14.7 a/f in each rpm/load cell (not wot cells). Once you do that plug the 02s back in.
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post #22 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
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I値l unhook the battery again tonight when I get back home, and unplug the O2 sensors tomorrow and give it a try again. Thanks!


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post #23 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 08:14 PM
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what does the 02 voltages do when idling?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
what does the 02 voltages do when idling?


I will double check tomorrow but on my handheld they will range from .88 to 00


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post #25 of 48 Old 04-10-2019, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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I知 sorry but the O2 readings are not actual voltage but a 斗oad reading given by the PMS. I might actually have to dig out my fluke meter and do some testing. They do appear to be low compared to other videos of cars running. I don稚 want to assume but, they could be relatively close to actual voltage. I will verify tomorrow hopefully.


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post #26 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 10:13 AM
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I will double check tomorrow but on my handheld they will range from .88 to 00


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huh?

I dont understand that

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huh?



I dont understand that


If I backprobe the O2 sensors at the connectors what wires /pins and what readings should I be looking for?


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post #28 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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I almost sent you text last night to ask about your progress, but it was late then I see this today. Missed all this drama. HA!
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post #29 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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I almost sent you text last night to ask about your progress, but it was late then I see this today. Missed all this drama. HA!


Yea you should have. I was up. I had a class in the city after work. It was a late night but this car is driving me nuts. I still think I知 overlooking something stupid. I知 going to unhook the O2 sensors tonight and reset the pcm. Triple check my engine grounds again to make sure I didn稚 leave any off


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post #30 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Update: unplugged O2 sensors. Still runs like crap. Reset PCM. Crap. I have come to determine that it痴 running rich at idle 10.0 and leaning right out - - - , after throttle is given. It acts like kit starving for fuel. Should I unhook the fuel lines from the rails and check for volume? Maybe it has the right pressure but not enough volume? Could the fuel pressure regulator be giving me this issue? I have two other fuel rails with regulators in them, I could switch them out.


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post #31 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 05:29 PM
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The PMS is showing 02 voltage on the screen.

What adjustments do you have entered in the PMS?

I forgot, are you running a wb?

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When the 02 are unplugged they show 00. I am running an AEM wideband. I haven稚 made any new adjustments into the PMS just yet.


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post #33 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 06:03 PM
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With 02s unplugged start tuning with the PMS. It will show you what load/rpm cell to a adjust. For idle adjust the idle cell to get as close to 14.7 as possible. Bring the tps to 1% than adjust the first rpm and load cell. Probably the first load-1. Keep adding fuel to get it to 14.7. Don't worry for now how much fuel you have to add. If it's 20%, 30% whatever, give it to the engine, it's just a number. Do that for all the rpm/ load cells
It's really not hard.

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Convert it to a blow thru carb setup. LOL!!! j/k
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post #35 of 48 Old 04-11-2019, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stangjumper View Post
With 02s unplugged start tuning with the PMS. It will show you what load/rpm cell to a adjust. For idle adjust the idle cell to get as close to 14.7 as possible. Bring the tps to 1% than adjust the first rpm and load cell. Probably the first load-1. Keep adding fuel to get it to 14.7. Don't worry for now how much fuel you have to add. If it's 20%, 30% whatever, give it to the engine, it's just a number. Do that for all the rpm/ load cells

It's really not hard.


I understand what your saying but I really don稚 want to change the tune because it was running good prior to the gasket change. Do you think the tune would change that much and I don稚 have another issue or a root cause of this behavior? I agree with what your saying and I understand what to do to change the tune but, the vehicle still feels like something is wrong ( besides the tune). I知 going to give a call to a friend of mine who tuned the car for me. Last time I talked to him he seemed to think something was wrong and it wasn稚 in the tune itself. He said the tune is probably off but not enough to make it run like that


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