Target AFR, and adjustments. - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Target AFR, and adjustments.

I just put a wideband O2 in my car and found it was running way lean. What is your target AFR, idle, cruise and WOT?

I have an adjustable FPR so I turned it up a few cranks at time until I got more favorable AFRs. The car now starts, runs and pulls better than ever. Glad I didn't do any damage running so lean.

The motor set up is stock 302, E7 heads, mystery cam, Edelbrock RPM intake 75mm TB and mass air set for the 24# injectors. Long tubes O/R H and Flowmasters.


90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 09:13 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Georgia
Posts: 434
You should be in the 12.6-12.9 range under wot if n/a. At idle and cruise you can be around 14.7 or so. Under lower loads you can lean it out a good bit.

Just curious, what we’re you at? Do you actually tune the car?


1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
96pushrod is online now  
post #3 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 09:30 AM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5gearbanging View Post
I just put a wideband O2 in my car and found it was running way lean. What is your target AFR, idle, cruise and WOT?

I have an adjustable FPR so I turned it up a few cranks at time until I got more favorable AFRs. The car now starts, runs and pulls better than ever. Glad I didn't do any damage running so lean.

The motor set up is stock 302, E7 heads, mystery cam, Edelbrock RPM intake 75mm TB and mass air set for the 24# injectors. Long tubes O/R H and Flowmasters.
fueling doesn't work like that, unless you have turned OFF, adaptive fueling

if you still have adaptive fueling on, fueling will trim to where they were told to be in the tune

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
It's a stock untouched ECU.
Pegged 19.0 at idle
18s at cruise
13s at wot

Now
18.0 idle
15-16s cruise
12s wot

The fuel pressure is up to 75 psi static.

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #5 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 11:29 AM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
keep raising it, then when you cant raise it no more
erase the kam, and start over
fun

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #6 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
I am a total newb to messing with the ecu,
Is there step by step instructions I can follow that you recommend.
And by keep raising it are you referring to the fuel pressure?

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #7 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 11:56 AM
Corral Elite Member
 
Saleen414's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Levant, Maine
Posts: 2,210
What Indy is saying is that the ECU will learn around the higher fuel pressure and then you will have to raise the fuel pressure again, which will make the ECU re-adapt. At some point you will no longer be able to get more fuel pressure and you will have to clear KAM (Keep Alive Memory) where at that point you can lower the fuel pressure back to where you started and then have to make adjustments as the ECU adjusts around what you are doing. It will be a never ending circle. Raise pressure, ECU adapts, clear KAM and start over...repeat. You have to fix the problem that is causing the lean condition to stop the cycle. What you are now doing is a band aid. You are treating the symptom, not the problem.

1989 Saleen 414 358cid SBF 2.8L Kenne Bell S/C
26 X 8.5 Hoosier
Best 1/4 mile time 8.623 @ 159.82 mph with a 1.34 60' (5.57 1/8th at 128)
Best 1/8 mile time 5.339 @ 133.46 mph with a 1.29 60'
08' Bullitt #4097 N/A 340ish RWHP <<<<<FOR SALE!
Saleen414 is offline  
post #8 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Gotcha, what AFRs if everything is working properly is the ECU trying to see?
I can start looking for vacuum leaks and exhaust header leaks but I haven't found anything obvious.

Other random sensors to check?

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #9 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 12:23 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 48
ECT and ACT sensors.

what mass air are you running?
idle is typical near stoic mid 14 on a sequential fueling system
cruise- again stoic mid 14- mid 15
WOT 12.4-13.2 depends on what the car likes if its NA

cam over lap and WB placement play a large role in what the WB will read at idle. reversion with a decent cam can make the WB read lean or rich.. at idle give the car what it wants and ignore the WB
a91what is offline  
post #10 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
The car likes what it is set at right now and the WB readings are closer to what I feel they should be. It wasn't happy when that car was giving me numbers that were way off.


90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #11 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 12:46 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
My mass air is an old Pro M

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #12 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 12:50 PM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5gearbanging View Post
Gotcha, what AFRs if everything is working properly is the ECU trying to see?
I can start looking for vacuum leaks and exhaust header leaks but I haven't found anything obvious.

Other random sensors to check?
In closed loop and at operating temp, the ecm target is 14.64

How does it know what is? It uses 02 sensor feed back

It drives the fuel around 14.64

It purposively cycles the 02s around stoich, 14.64

So the command lambse will be from ~13.5-15.5

It does NOT hold steady, by design

I am going to say that your trickery maf with 24#inj are the problem

If not, we need to verify 02 voltages

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #13 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 02:04 PM
Registered User
 
Curt C's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (8)
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: las vegas, nv
Posts: 750
Where did you place the wideband O2 sensor?

1986-045 Saleen Mustang Griggs GR40, 408W RDI aluminum block, AFR 205, T56
1999 Porsche 911 Carerra - Stock
1999 BMW M Coupe - Stock
Curt C is offline  
post #14 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Wide band is just after the long tube collector on the passenger side. At the 11 o'clock position.

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #15 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 06:46 PM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
I wouldn’t be trusting any of that wb data until you can verify with the more accurate stock narrow bands

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #16 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 07:09 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Georgia
Posts: 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
I wouldn’t be trusting any of that wb data until you can verify with the more accurate stock narrow bands
I like to confirm what my wb says with the nb readings as well. I’ve had a wb sensor fail before, but have yet to have a nb go out.

The trick to dialing In fuel is getting your wideband to match your commanded fuel. Once you have injector slopes close you can do a little fine tuning with the maf curve.

1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
96pushrod is online now  
post #17 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Here what I know, my car ran like crap. I added a wide band it said my car was running super lean. I increased fuel pressure and my wide band showed the car was running richer and closer to what it should be, and started easier, ran better and felt stronger.

It the wide band dead on? Maybe not but my car is running better so I believe I am on the right track.

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #18 of 30 Old 04-08-2019, 09:50 PM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
Listen to what 96pushrod says.........Lambse=WB......then you should be good

you dont know what lambse is,

so what you are doing is NOT telling the ECM what you want

the ecm is telling YOU what it wants,,,,,,,,,,the ECM will win

this means, if the ECM wants lean it will get it, until it runs to its limits

your method is fine, my first response told you how to do it, its your choice.

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #19 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 06:41 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Ok so what's the first step?

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #20 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 08:12 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 48
First i would pull the codes, they may be there but not light up the check engine light. you could have a failed O2 that is forcing the engine lean.
NB sensors by design are more accurate in a very small range, hence the above advice. you will have to take a voltage reading from the sensor if you have no way of communicating with the ECU or datalogging.
a91what is offline  
post #21 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
I used a test light and flashed the codes off this morning before disconnecting the battery.
31
67
81
82
85
84

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #22 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 09:51 AM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5gearbanging View Post
Ok so what's the first step?
you pick a tuner or a tuning system that you like

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #23 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
5gearbanging's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Wilmington, NC
Posts: 141
Garage
Got it, is there any that you have used or recommend. I don't know anything about ones that use the stock ECU, only the big money options.

Can the ECU be tuned to remove no longer used features?

90 LX Notch 5.0 5spd, bolt on drag car with some giggle gas.
11.71 @ 116mph
86 Gt T-top 5.0 5spd, That one day project.
5gearbanging is offline  
post #24 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 02:49 PM
Registered User
 
EscortSportage's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,907
Garage
What i'm questioning is how are you lean with 24 injectors on a stock motor? Yes the intake and TB/MAF bring in more air but your still on stock heads. I ran EV6 19s with GT40P heads, a ported tubular GT40, 65mm TB, Tbird MAF, shorty headers and im pretty sure i was never lean.

instagram.com/escortsportage
Sponsors: MaximumMotorsports,liwrap,Stinger-Performance,Cosmis Racing Wheels
2480LBS
306W
EscortSportage is offline  
post #25 of 30 Old 04-09-2019, 02:52 PM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
Poster has maf ‘setup’ for the injectors

Fords dont use Mafs for injectors.....

They use mafs to measure air mass

Ecm needs to be told injector size

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #26 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 07:28 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 25
Garage
Check out Moates.com and more specifically, the F3 ($75) and/or Quarterhorse ($249) products.
These connect to your stock ECU and allow you to run custom BINs (the code & settings the ECU uses to run the car.)
Warning: this can get quite complex, but the pay-off is that you can dramatically change the way the car runs (for the better.)

I'd recommend the Quarterhorse as it's easier to program and use, while in the car, but it does cost more.
The F3 works just as well, however, you'll have to learn how to program it and you'll have to remove it and replace it every time you change the program.
For this product, I'd recommend a cheap Willem programmer (see: eBay) which allows you to program the F3.
Also, you can actually get a super-cheap memory chip for the F3 that allows multiple programs on it at the same time. You can select which program you want with a switch.

Finally, for great info on doing the ECU program configuration, check out https://www.efidynotuning.com/a9l2.htm and prepare for hours and hours of reading and tinkering.
Stroked_93_Cobra is offline  
post #27 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 09:20 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 4
thats why I love my Megasquirt PNP2 full controll all the time at all rpms..datalog autotune VE analize...etc original ecu is ok up to some point ..but if you go modified you need controll and to know whats going on under the Hood .. best spent Money for a Tunig part ever !!!!
Marcelo26 is offline  
post #28 of 30 Old 04-10-2019, 10:37 PM
Registered User
 
indy2000's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: vancouver
Posts: 20,669
and the moates/tweecer is not full control?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
indy2000 is offline  
post #29 of 30 Old 04-11-2019, 07:48 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: casper wy.
Posts: 959
Moates QH is $250, Tuner pro Rt free. I suggest you make the donation. Efidynotuning free. Dechipa will supply you the strategy for free. The you can see what the eec is doing. Cheapest most effective way to get where you are going.

If you have the old injectors and maf I would suggest you install them. If your problem goes away you will know what to do next. The info. above about reading voltage on the NB is also a good place to start. This will tell you if your lean.
wywindsor is offline  
post #30 of 30 Old 04-11-2019, 08:52 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 236
Garage
you guys have such great support for your ecm strategies, once you get thru the learning curve of tuning you will understand clearly how its so difficult to have a 'calibrated maf' for a certain size of injector.
You will also wonder why you ever tried it, as you will have so much more control to tune your car how you want it, with the a/f ratio being spot on, even in open loop.

Hopefully you don't get frustrated thru the whole thing, as the beginning of the learning curve can be frightening. The payoff is huge though.

stock block 347 w Bullet Forged flat top pistons, TW170 p&p heads, comp 35-775-8 cam, approx 9.6:1 compression, 72mm rear mount turbo, injector clinic 650h injectors, CircleD 2800 stall converter, Lentech valve body.
Dono2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AFR on a NA Car @ WOT turboLXstang Engine Management Systems 2 09-07-2015 08:29 PM
AFR 91lxaod Turbochargers 9 09-19-2012 08:21 AM
Blueprinted AFR 205 heads galland Windsor Engine Parts 0 10-07-2005 05:47 PM
AFR ?? 95stang2 94/95 Tech 2 04-26-2005 02:20 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome