Head flow numbers AFR vs Blueaprint - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Head flow numbers AFR vs Blueaprint

I've got a stock 351w .030 with forged pistons I'm putting together for my 90GT. It's a street car with a/c and cruise. Will stay fuel injected and I'm going to run a edelbrock cam (see below) with a trick flow r intake (see below)....my question is do I actually need to spend the extra $600 on AFR heads bc all I want is about 400hp. What would the hp difference be?

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2281/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/t...0004/make/ford

https://blueprintengines.com/collect...sembled-hp9008

https://www.airflowresearch.com/185c...cylinder-head/

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post #2 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 01:02 PM
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Don’t go cheap it’s not just the heads but the springs matter as to what can run for a cam.

Whatever heads you go with get good springs/rockers and get a custom cam to tie it together.

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post #3 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Don’t go cheap it’s not just the heads but the springs matter as to what can run for a cam.

Whatever heads you go with get good springs/rockers and get a custom cam to tie it together.
I dont mind changing the springs and I'm not trying to build a race motor. I dont want anything custom
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post #4 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 01:46 PM
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The spring pressure on those blueprint heads are really soft, like hyd flat tappet soft. They would be useless for anything marginally aggressive
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post #5 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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I would change the springs. What I wanna know is about how much hp will I be giving up trying to save $500. I think the AFR flow 297 at .600 intake and 215 exhaust vs the blueprint flow 240 at .600 intake and 166 exhaust. Cam lift is 573/581
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post #6 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 02:28 PM
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You can make 400+ FWHP with about 250 CFM on the intake.

Having said that, I don't believe ANY company's posted air flow numbers.
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post #7 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 02:49 PM
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A custom cam is very easy to get. You tell them your parts and goal and voila a matched cam to your motor. Added cost to get custom cam is peanuts.

The springs upgrade are a must with those heads.

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Don’t go cheap it’s not just the heads but the springs matter as to what can run for a cam.

Whatever heads you go with get good springs/rockers and get a custom cam to tie it together.
I dont mind changing the springs and I'm not trying to build a race motor. I dont want anything custom
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post #8 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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After typing in the flow number on my desktop dyno. I'm going to lose about 40 hp at 6000rpm with the Blue Print heads compared to the AFR 185s so I think I'll just go with the AFRs
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post #9 of 57 Old 01-01-2019, 06:27 PM
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With the afr you have the option of the stud mount rocker as well, which is nice.

I think if you’re buying new, spend the extra coin to get the afr head.

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post #10 of 57 Old 01-03-2019, 12:38 AM Thread Starter
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With the afr you have the option of the stud mount rocker as well, which is nice.

I think if you’re buying new, spend the extra coin to get the afr head.
I am buying new but I dont want stud rockers. I like pedestal mount because of the simplicity

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post #11 of 57 Old 01-03-2019, 07:59 AM
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With the afr you have the option of the stud mount rocker as well, which is nice.

I think if you’re buying new, spend the extra coin to get the afr head.
I am buying new but I dont want stud rockers. I like pedestal mount because of the simplicity
420# open spring pressure is recommended with that cam. No way in hell should that be ran with pedestal mount.

Stud mounds can actually be less complex than a pedestal mount.

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post #12 of 57 Old 01-03-2019, 10:18 AM
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420# open spring pressure is recommended with that cam. No way in hell should that be ran with pedestal mount.

Stud mounds can actually be less complex than a pedestal mount.
FWIW the cam card has much lower requirements then 420 open and Ed has said in the past that 400+ is no issue when done correctly when using a pedestal head. He used the small ls bolts as an example.

I am not saying he should stick with ped head, but it is still an option.
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post #13 of 57 Old 01-03-2019, 10:34 AM
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420# open spring pressure is recommended with that cam. No way in hell should that be ran with pedestal mount.

Stud mounds can actually be less complex than a pedestal mount.
FWIW the cam card has much lower requirements then 420 open and Ed has said in the past that 400+ is no issue when done correctly when using a pedestal head. He used the small ls bolts as an example.

I am not saying he should stick with ped head, but it is still an option.
On the install instructions they recommend 420lb open, weird the cam card specs a different rate.

Run whatever suits you I suppose, I know I would much rather run a head with a stud, 7/16 if you can swing it.

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Here is an option I think would be better. TFS 190 11R heads come CNC ported, flow well and have the needed springs for your cam.
I'm wondering who told you pedestal mount rockers were better/simpler. Stud mount rocker most likely will have roller tips and roller fulcrums, they come with the locking nuts. Super easy to set up. No shimming of pedestals either. You Will have to measure and buy the correct length push rods. You would have to do that regardless of what head you get.
Here is a link to Fordstrokers for the heads.
http://fordstrokers.com/induction/tr...-Wedge-190-11R
$1629 ready to go, cheaper than the AFR's too :-)

You mentioned you entered the advertised air flow for the other heads in your desktop dyno program. Just for fun, try entering the TFS flow data and see if your dyno results change.
Here is a link to the flow data https://static.trickflow.com/global/...515601-c01.pdf
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I am buying new but I dont want stud rockers. I like pedestal mount because of the simplicity
I 100% agree with this statement on pedestal mounted rockers. Torque them and drive.
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I 100% agree with this statement on pedestal mounted rockers. Torque them and drive.
And you don't have to use noisy rollers if you don't want to. No pesky poly lock issues, no clearance issues etc....
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I am buying new but I dont want stud rockers. I like pedestal mount because of the simplicity
I 100% agree with this statement on pedestal mounted rockers. Torque them and drive.
That's why I prefer pedestal mount. I'd rather just change the cam because I absolutely hate adjusting valves!!!!
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I 100% agree with this statement on pedestal mounted rockers. Torque them and drive.
And you don't have to use noisy rollers if you don't want to. No pesky poly lock issues, no clearance issues etc....
Right!!! Just use loctite on the bolts and bolt them down and done!!! I always use a good quality brand pedestal rocker also, in prefer scorpian but if I can get my hands on another of Ford then I'll use those but they hard to find in good condition
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Right!!! Just use loctite on the bolts and bolt them down and done!!! I always use a good quality brand pedestal rocker also, in prefer scorpian but if I can get my hands on another of Ford then I'll use those but they hard to find in good condition
When changing heads, head gaskets and using after market rockers (Scorpion and others) In my opinion, it is critical you measure and get the correct pushrod length. The new pedestal mounting surface may not be the same height as the stock set up. It is best to measure for the correct pushrods.

Please keep us posted on your build.
Thanks
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post #20 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 12:34 PM
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I say this being not a fan of AFR stuff, but those AFRs will flow at least 20 cfm more per square inch of cross section than the blue print heads. and that is a lot more cylinder fill. and as far as airflow, if having too much flow was a problem, the argument for blowers and turbos would be out the window. buy the best set of heads you can afford. for the $ i would use a different head than an AFR 185, but that is me. i would not buy the cheap heads.
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post #21 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 12:45 PM
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I'm wondering who told you pedestal mount rockers were better/simpler. Stud mount rocker most likely will have roller tips and roller fulcrums, they come with the locking nuts. Super easy to set up. No shimming of pedestals either. You Will have to measure and buy the correct length push rods. You would have to do that regardless of what head you get.

When changing heads, head gaskets and using after market rockers (Scorpion and others) In my opinion, it is critical you measure and get the correct pushrod length. The new pedestal mounting surface may not be the same height as the stock set up. It is best to measure for the correct pushrods.
Exactly! You can have the best head on the planet and if the valvetrain isnt right it wont run up to its potential. on the flip side of the coin, you buy cheap heads and screw up the valvetrain and itll run the same as the stock junk it replaced.

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I 100% agree with this statement on pedestal mounted rockers. Torque them and drive.
yeah, after you spend at least an hour setting up the shim stacks to get your tq wrench to click 1/4 to a full turn past zero lash, assuming the pushrod length is correct. just setting up the pedestals to test for correct pushrod length takes forever. no thanks. i agree that stud stuff can be a pain in the ass, especially if you run a stud girdle; but pedestal stuff is far more time consuming.

once you go shaft, you never go back. you can check springs off the engine, and have it all back together in about 1/2 the time it takes to setup stud mount (let alone pedestals), and the lash doesnt change.



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The most painful thing I ever did was setting up stud rockers. Once you figure out the correct height (adjustable pushrod) to get the best pattern and angles, you order your pushrods. Hardened, of course, due to guide plates. Make sure you use sealer on the studs that impinge on the intake runner! Set up each intake and exhaust so the adjustable guide plate keeps the roller tip centered left-to-right on the valve tip! Torque the guide plate bolt while trying to hold it steady - oops, the guide plate moved. D'oh. Now compensate for the movement by "guessing" at how much the plate will move when torqued. Good luck. Some don't move at all, there's no logic to it. It helps to have a balancer with marks every 90 degrees since if you have a decent sized cam, you want to do it the more exact way to be sure you get the preload correct. Rotate the nut for proper preload and carefully tighten the poly-lock. Only 15 more to do. Some roller tips will never center perfectly on the valve tip. Try not to get to neurotic about it, you'll never finish the job. Only took me about 2 hours.

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post #23 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 01:18 PM
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A good first step to fixing all that crap is to throw the hydraulic lifters in the trash. once you setup the studs and get the guideplate alignment right and studs torqued you dont have to mess with that part again. i guess pick your poison. i would much rather play with guideplates/stud rocker to get the geometry right then mess with pedestals that you cant even adjust the rockers. if the geometry of the pedestal stuff is off other than the height, there isnt much you can do.
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Right!!! Just use loctite on the bolts and bolt them down and done!!! I always use a good quality brand pedestal rocker also, in prefer scorpian but if I can get my hands on another of Ford then I'll use those but they hard to find in good condition
When changing heads, head gaskets and using after market rockers (Scorpion and others) In my opinion, it is critical you measure and get the correct pushrod length. The new pedestal mounting surface may not be the same height as the stock set up. It is best to measure for the correct pushrods.

Please keep us posted on your build.
Thanks
dstolarc
I always check my pushrod length and I keep rocker shims
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post #25 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 03:55 PM
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Geometry is what it is with pedestals, as long as you have a shim kit it's easy. Ran the Cobra 1.7 pedestal rockers on my AFR165's with a Comp 'XE' profile which isn't exactly lazy. Easy to set up, maintenance free.

Edit: Isn't a pedestal rocker essentially a bolt-down shaft rocker?

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Geometry is what it is with pedestals, as long as you have a shim kit it's easy. Ran the Cobra 1.7 pedestal rockers on my AFR165's with a Comp 'XE' profile which isn't exactly lazy. Easy to set up, maintenance free.

Edit: Isn't a pedestal rocker essentially a bolt-down shaft rocker?

assuming the aftermarket pedestal rockers fit like they are supposed to. im not sure i would consider a pedestal setup and shafts to be essentially the same.
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post #27 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 09:33 PM
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assuming the aftermarket pedestal rockers fit like they are supposed to. im not sure i would consider a pedestal setup and shafts to be essentially the same.
I mean, I can present random arguments against all rocker setups also - doesn't a fact make. I don't know that I prefer pedestal rockers, but I ran them for 17 years with different cams and heads and never had an issue. Setup was easy and they were reliable as you'd expect for an OEM setup.

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post #28 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 09:49 PM
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I mean, I can present random arguments against all rocker setups also - doesn't a fact make. I don't know that I prefer pedestal rockers, but I ran them for 17 years with different cams and heads and never had an issue. Setup was easy and they were reliable as you'd expect for an OEM setup.
idk. i mean, in the mid 90s we used to break them. but we were making over 500rwhp with blowers and turbos with alphabet cams and it was before we knew how to do anything but bolt #### on because we were kids. so it is very possible we werent running enough spring for the application. but once we went to stud mount we didnt have any more problems. imo, if i am going to keep pedestals, im just going to run stock rockers.
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A good first step to fixing all that crap is to throw the hydraulic lifters in the trash. once you setup the studs and get the guideplate alignment right and studs torqued you dont have to mess with that part again. i guess pick your poison. i would much rather play with guideplates/stud rocker to get the geometry right then mess with pedestals that you cant even adjust the rockers. if the geometry of the pedestal stuff is off other than the height, there isnt much you can do.
What's wrong with hydraulic lifters?

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I say this being not a fan of AFR stuff, but those AFRs will flow at least 20 cfm more per square inch of cross section than the blue print heads. and that is a lot more cylinder fill. and as far as airflow, if having too much flow was a problem, the argument for blowers and turbos would be out the window. buy the best set of heads you can afford. for the $ i would use a different head than an AFR 185, but that is me. i would not buy the cheap heads.
What is wrong with AFR heads? You're on a roll. Lol

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What's wrong with hydraulic lifters?

What is wrong with AFR heads? You're on a roll. Lol
its not that there is anything wrong with HR lifters. its just that they have limitations. as far as AFRs, if I am paying a lot of $ for a head it wont have production valve centers and port placement. dont get me wrong, if you have a big bore or are doing something conservative that is going to turn less than 6500 they are fine. i like the RHS castings better. but its really just a preference thing. i also like high ports and cleveland stuff a lot.
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idk. i mean, in the mid 90s we used to break them. but we were making over 500rwhp with blowers and turbos with alphabet cams and it was before we knew how to do anything but bolt #### on because we were kids. so it is very possible we werent running enough spring for the application. but once we went to stud mount we didnt have any more problems. imo, if i am going to keep pedestals, im just going to run stock rockers.
As recently as 2015 I was running my 306 with 11 PSI & XE270HR cam with Cobra 1.7:1 pedestal rocker arms (steep ramps, .544 lift.) I needed 145# seat pressure springs to control the valves of my AFR165 heads. Ran street and dragstrip this way for maybe a decade.

Note that most canted valve heads have individual shafts for each valve. The main difference is the shaft held by 2 shorter bolts instead of one longer one. Clearly stronger, but my point is on target here. Also, many engine builders have stated that pedestal are actually plenty strong for most street applications - which I believe is like 90% of people here and elsewhere running street strip with hydraulic roller cams.

My 428 has AFR220's with 7/16" studs and 155# seat pressure and .595 lift. The ramp rates are actually somewhat less radical than the 'XE' lobes I was running. If I ran a solid roller and revved much above my current 6800 RPM limit, I'd likely need girdles to keep even the 7/16" studs from flexing, so studs are not perfect. 3/8" studs are weak and can (and do) break. 5/16" pedestal bolts don't break because they are in a clamping, mostly tension mode in typical street/strip applications. Where pedestal rockers break seems to be the pedestal itself which can split and break into pieces. I haven't seen as many posts about this in recent years, perhaps they improved the design of the pedestals.

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post #33 of 57 Old 01-04-2019, 11:40 PM
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on the cleveland, i do know a lot of guys got rid of the pedestals for studs. i can tell you that on the 358 clevor my buddy built, with a solid flat tappet, the 7/16 studs were fine at 7200 without a stud girdle. it was never a problem. when it grew to a 408 and was turning 8k it did get some stud girdles, but at that point the springs were 250 on the seat and 730 open. at 6800 and 155 seat pressure, i doubt it has enough open pressure to really flex a good arp rocker stud.

idk, the shaft stand to me seems a lot more rigid than the pedestal. i think the problem with the pedestal is when you get into some real springs. HR stuff typically just doesnt run enough spring pressure or rpm to cause a problem. most people just add boost when they want to make power anyway. i sold my vortech in 1996, and sold my turbo technology kit in 2002. so i guess i just like doing things the hard way.
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post #34 of 57 Old 01-05-2019, 04:00 PM
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I still run pedestal heads. The small bolt's strength limits the spring pressure I can run, therefore the cam selection. I'd love a shaft mount setup, but the pedestal setup does just fine.

I especially appreciate Jack Hidley's link and comments in the following thread:
pedestal vs stud mounted?
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94 Vert. 359w. AFR Renegade 185, FTI open track grind, RPM2, Accufab 80mm. MM suspension. Baer/Cobra brakes. QuickTime Bell & T5-Z. Fox Longtubes, custom side-exit exhaust.
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post #35 of 57 Old 01-05-2019, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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I prefer pedestal mount but my motor isnt extreme. It's a stock 351w with Icon forged pistons. It's a street car with cruise and a/c so a stock set of AFR 185s will just fine for what I need. Springs handle up to .600 lift....my last AFR 185s pedestal mount and I was using a comp xe282hr cam and it worked very well
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