363 how crazy am I Cobra intake - Page 4 - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 199Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #106 of 315 Old 05-17-2019, 03:56 PM
Registered User
 
AlexLTDLX's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MD
Posts: 5,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by petmotel View Post
I'm having a tough time trying to understand how a choked inlet tract led to a lean condition, too much fuel for an insufficient supply of air should create a rich condition rather than melt the engine down. Analogous to saying "My plants got dehydrated and died due to over watering them".
I just saw this - sorry I missed it. It didn't cause a lean condition; it was forced to over-rev. And I learned the hard way that over-revving + over spinning a blower = melted pistons. There certainly was insufficient (and hot) airflow involved.


In any event, I understand the OP's desire to keep the Cobra; if it were my car and I wanted to do the same thing, I'd literally cut the runner walls out in the upper (at least in groups of four on either side of the EGR passages), use an upper-lower spacer and radius the areas between runners on the upper side, then port the ever-loving snot out of the lower. That way, you've minimized the choke, increased plenum volume and retained a stock Cobra look. You could even just radius the runners on the lower and eliminate the spacer all together.

I think that's the best you could do - and it might work out halfway decently. Oh - and when you weld the upper plenum back together (because you'll need to cut it off to cut out the runners up there), sand the welds flat and use a needle scaler to get the "cast" look back. No one would ever know all the monkey business going on inside.

Cougar5.O and Str8ballar like this.

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
AlexLTDLX is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #107 of 315 Old 05-17-2019, 04:10 PM
Registered User
 
tmoss's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (48)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 10,650
Garage
One more point per Alex's line of thought - if you cut a stock upper open and port the runners but cannot get to or enlarge the 90 degree bend area then you have not changed the minimum cross section of the upper and it will be the limiter. Removing spme lenght helps but the limiter is still the mcsa.

Str8ballar likes this.

Tom Moss
2010 Shelby GT500 vert with 2.9L 16 psi Whipple and rim upgrade. Rated 750HP/713TQ - 673/620 to the tire

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
src="/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Salute" class="inlineimg" />http://tmoss.efidynotuning.com/
tmoss is offline  
post #108 of 315 Old 05-17-2019, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoss View Post
If you are talking about Tony at Bigdog, he will remove 2" of the runner in the upper. That may help the 363 make more top end.

You can't really compare a true long runner with a shortened one on a 363 as apples-to-apples so let's get that out there.

We have done shortened uppers for HO and GT40 applications but they were used on 302-308 motors with rpm limits of 6,000 as a practicle matter. What we saw was more power near the top but the loss of torque in the mid range made it about a wash. This being a 363 could change that and we never did one that we got feedback on for a 347 or 363. Our results for long runner ported intakes are on both our sites as dyno and track data. You could run his intake with shortened upper, swap our lower for his and then get a better idea.

Also, the cam design could play into results significantly - Anderson Ford Motorsports designed their shelf cams to rev into the 6,700 rpm range with a long runner but those cams will probably be different than one that Ed Curtic would spec.
It will take a little time but you will be getting all my results. I one thank you for all the data you have put together over the years.
tmoss likes this.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #109 of 315 Old 05-17-2019, 04:41 PM
Registered User
 
thadude's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
Posts: 1,583
Tom have you ever mixed and match the fox and sn intakes? As in cut length out of a fox style upper and weld on the SN bigger plenum? Kind of a S351 hybrid, is this pointless/stupid/backwards thinking?

1993 Cobra #1282
thadude is offline  
post #110 of 315 Old 05-17-2019, 05:17 PM
Registered User
 
tmoss's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (48)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 10,650
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by thadude View Post
Tom have you ever mixed and match the fox and sn intakes? As in cut length out of a fox style upper and weld on the SN bigger plenum? Kind of a S351 hybrid, is this pointless/stupid/backwards thinking?
No, it's not pointless or the 351R would not have had an extended plenum. We have not added plenum but we did shorten and SVO SN upper and never got feedbacl from that customer.


http://i64.tinypic.com/2is8fgm.jpg

Tom Moss
2010 Shelby GT500 vert with 2.9L 16 psi Whipple and rim upgrade. Rated 750HP/713TQ - 673/620 to the tire

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
src="/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Salute" class="inlineimg" />http://tmoss.efidynotuning.com/
tmoss is offline  
post #111 of 315 Old 05-18-2019, 07:25 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Regina, Sk, Canada
Posts: 106
Who cares if you see the cobra intake with the hood popped? You're spending good money on this engine combo. Why not experience everything you're paying for?

Boss block 308, stage 3 canfields, spyder intake, 90mm tb, 96lb msds, sds inj, hanlon tko, tti race kit t-76 q-trim, 00r wheels+brakes, steeda 5-link. Aiming for 700rwhp.
mitchwolos is offline  
post #112 of 315 Old 05-18-2019, 07:39 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchwolos View Post
Who cares if you see the cobra intake with the hood popped? You're spending good money on this engine combo. Why not experience everything you're paying for?
LOL because I care thats the ONLY person that matters!!!

As stated if you read the thread I have a 93 cobra and I like that look. Im not all about the highest hp# also I like to do things different and I don't see any info on a 363 with cobra intake

Why did you buy a Boss block when Dart is better? Why build a 308 when you could go 363? Because you want to not hating I get it thats my point.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #113 of 315 Old 05-18-2019, 10:47 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Regina, Sk, Canada
Posts: 106
I bought the boss block/stock stroke crank/h-beam rods/damper for $2k cdn brand new...... Diamond had a sale on .040 pistons for a stock stroke/rod combo for 1/3 the price of 4.125 pistons. I saved $4K+ by going this route. The turbo will be the limiting factor for the power I'll make anyways. More cubes will spool quicker. But, My turbo is better suited to a displacement closer to 302.

You're quite possibly giving up 50+hp by not spending $500 (used) on an intake that's better suited to your needs. That's lunacy in my books.

If you want....... You can even get a nice sticker that says cobra and put it on whichever intake you want. We all know cobra owners aren't happy unless pretty much every body panel and engine part says cobra on it
CDW6212R and Str8ballar like this.

Boss block 308, stage 3 canfields, spyder intake, 90mm tb, 96lb msds, sds inj, hanlon tko, tti race kit t-76 q-trim, 00r wheels+brakes, steeda 5-link. Aiming for 700rwhp.
mitchwolos is offline  
post #114 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 06:00 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchwolos View Post
Who cares if you see the cobra intake with the hood popped? You're spending good money on this engine combo. Why not experience everything you're paying for?
And where does it stop?
Someone says they are installing AFR 185's on a 363. "OMG, you're choking the engine!!!!! You need to install (insert ANY big heads here)".
Someone says they want to run a Cobra/GT40 intake."OMG, you're choking the engine!!! you need (insert any intake that flows a boatload of air)".
And I swear it does not matter what camshaft someone says they are installing, there are always a few guys berating them for "leaving horsepower on the table".
The thing is, almost all of this extra horsepower comes at higher and higher RPM.
What if someone simply wants a nice, strong torque curve and decent horsepower to make their car more fun to drive, without spinning it too high?
Str8ballar likes this.
90MarkVII is offline  
post #115 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90MarkVII View Post
And where does it stop?
Someone says they are installing AFR 185's on a 363. "OMG, you're choking the engine!!!!! You need to install (insert ANY big heads here)".
Someone says they want to run a Cobra/GT40 intake."OMG, you're choking the engine!!! you need (insert any intake that flows a boatload of air)".
And I swear it does not matter what camshaft someone says they are installing, there are always a few guys berating them for "leaving horsepower on the table".
The thing is, almost all of this extra horsepower comes at higher and higher RPM.
What if someone simply wants a nice, strong torque curve and decent horsepower to make their car more fun to drive, without spinning it too high?
And I'm going to have a 300 shot of nitrous on it thats like 750hp-800hp how much power does a street car need.


93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #116 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 07:30 PM
Corral Elite Member
 
Saleen414's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Levant, Maine
Posts: 2,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90MarkVII View Post
What if someone simply wants a nice, strong torque curve and decent horsepower to make their car more fun to drive, without spinning it too high?
Then you should put in a 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel that makes 1,000 ft/lbs of torque at less than 4,000 rpm.

1989 Saleen 414 358cid SBF 2.8L Kenne Bell S/C
26 X 8.5 Hoosier
Best 1/4 mile time 8.623 @ 159.82 mph with a 1.34 60' (5.57 1/8th at 128)
Best 1/8 mile time 5.339 @ 133.46 mph with a 1.29 60'
08' Bullitt #4097 N/A 340ish RWHP <<<<<FOR SALE!
Saleen414 is offline  
post #117 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 07:48 PM
Registered User
 
Stangdawg's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 848
I suspect you’ll be 380 / 405 and somewhere around 5300 rpm for the peak.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8ballar View Post
Anyone want to guess HP#s

This is the motor will have Tmoss ported intake, I'm saying 400rwhp at 5,300 rpms

TKO 600, 1 3/4 shorties 3in collector and 3in out the back.

Dart SHP 363 Internal Balanced, Trickflow 11R 205 heads 66cc (Fel Pro MLS 1134 Head Gaskets). 10.1 compression
RPM 4340 crank, Scat 4340 H Beam Rods, 2618 Forged Wiseco Pistons, Wiseco's GFX ring. Motor is good for 9k rpms if I used solid lifters (I'm not).
Custom cam for NA (Idle to 6,500rpms)
8 way adjustable SA Gear billet timing chain with a torrigton bearing
Morel HYD roller link bar lifters. (5323)
7/16 pushrods 4130 Chromemoly
Jesel shaft rockers (They only make one for the 11r heads) (KPS-470191)
Moroso Oil Pan with billet end seals (oil drainback added supercharger or turbo just if I ever want to go that direction)
Melling Standard Volume Oil Pump (10687)(I didn't want a high volume pump)
Moroso Oil Pump Pick up (24516)
ARP Billet Oil Pumpshaft
New timing cover
Edelbrock Water Pump (8840)
Str8ballar likes this.

1989 GT - 347 build in progress
Stangdawg is offline  
post #118 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleen414 View Post
Then you should put in a 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel that makes 1,000 ft/lbs of torque at less than 4,000 rpm.
I have a 6.7 doing just that Race mode is a beast and get 23mpg.
Saleen414 likes this.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #119 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 08:35 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Georgia
Posts: 551
On an unrelated note, I think those Edelbrock water pumps are definitely a ripoff for $250. Do yourself a favor and just get a ford one, or even gmb makes a good high volume one for like $50.

I’ve ran both and they work great
Str8ballar likes this.

1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
96pushrod is offline  
post #120 of 315 Old 05-19-2019, 09:50 PM
Registered User
 
Stangdawg's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 848
I agree on that pump being a rip off.

But as yet another sign of the times for our Foxes, it’s getting harder and harder to find new Motorcraft water pumps.

LMR, AM, Mustangs Unlimited, and Ford dealerships don’t carry it anymore.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 96pushrod View Post
On an unrelated note, I think those Edelbrock water pumps are definitely a ripoff for $250. Do yourself a favor and just get a ford one, or even gmb makes a good high volume one for like $50.

I’ve ran both and they work great

1989 GT - 347 build in progress
Stangdawg is offline  
post #121 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 07:15 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Georgia
Posts: 551
I’ve had good luck with a gmb high volume in my 347, I’d recommend it in a heartbeat.

Paid $50 from summit.

1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
96pushrod is offline  
post #122 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 08:49 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleen414 View Post
Then you should put in a 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel that makes 1,000 ft/lbs of torque at less than 4,000 rpm.
Of course! How stupid of me!
90MarkVII is offline  
post #123 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 01:43 PM
rob
Registered User
 
rob's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (23)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 3,470
How much cam are you running? What shift point did you request? Which shorty headers are you running?

The cobra upper will be cut, ported and then welded back together?

Canít wait to see how it does.

1982 Ford Fairmont Futura H/C/I, fuel injected and turbocharged [email protected]
rob is offline  
post #124 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
How much cam are you running? What shift point did you request? Which shorty headers are you running?

The cobra upper will be cut, ported and then welded back together?

Canít wait to see how it does.
Cam, I told him Idle to 6,500rpms, Shift point 6,300rpms, Headers Mac 1 3/4 shorties 3in collector, 3in pro chamber, 3in catback,

Have T moss lower ported with upper opened to 75mm,

Will be sending another cobra intake off to a guy to cut, port and weld back together, and testing after I get it tuned and dynoed with Tmosses.

Also plan on testing a Holley or Trick Flow R also just to see how much I'm leaving on the table. People are saying 40hp but thats just guessing I like to have real numbers. (For me I don't spend money to out run the car thats beside me I just spend it for knowledge) In the end the cobra will stay on it.

Also may swap the Mac mufflers out for the borla xs just something else I would like to see long term.
S351Saleen77 likes this.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #125 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
So what do y'all think Holley or Trick flow R long runner 90mm TB???????? (for a see what I'm leaving on the table test)

If I do the Trick Flow I may see if I can find someone with a box so I can just swap the upper and test for fun. But I don't care about the box that much, Doesn't match cam or car.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #126 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Just to give a little more of my thoughts, So I've looked at like every dyno # online with the cobra intake I could find Most have between a 1.2-1.28hp per CI. Max hp around 5,800rpms as low as 5,300rpms. One thing I also see as on bigger CI motors they hold the HP longer like 500rpms. The few that I have seen with a cut upper carried up to 6,300rpms, But not knowing the cam my thought is maybe people are building the cam for more of the 5,500-5,800 range I want to leave nothing on the table thats why I went 6,500 also that will be a great range to test the bigger intake to have an idea of what I'm leaving on the table. I feel that if I get 1.2-1.28HP per CI I will be got what I wanted If it 1hp per CI I know the intake ran out of gas/air. People are going the hate but at the end of the day the car will have a ton of power for a daily driver regardless.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #127 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:46 PM
Registered User
 
CDW6212R's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Knoxville, TN.
Posts: 2,217
The cam made for the GT40 intake isn't the same thing they would design for the bigger long runner intakes. I wouldn't spend much money or time on testing the other intakes. That won't show all of the difference, just like TFS heads cannot be compared to AFR heads by a simple head swap/test(or pistons depending on PTV).

Ideal cams(custom cams) should be designed to get the most out of every part unique to that one build. I have a custom cam in my 347 that I asked to work NA for a short while, and later for mild boost. I doubt my cam is perfect for NA, which is how I'll leave it, as things changed. It's fun to bench race, but practically, it's best to only seriously compare complete combo's, where every part was planned together to start with.

Don
92 Mark VII LSC SE - soon OBDII and 4R70, GTC kit and 347, custom paint.
98 Explorer Limited project to add 4WD, XP8 parts, KB blower, paint, 337.
99 Limited mail vehicle, SOHC 4WD, later 306/4R70W swap. 1998 Mountaineer spare. 72 Ranchero 351 Clevor project.
CDW6212R is offline  
post #128 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:48 PM
Registered User
 
tmoss's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (48)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: St Louis, MO
Posts: 10,650
Garage
One thing came to mind for me - did we quote the welded and ported lower for you? If not, it needs to be for those cubes and the power you are looking for.

Tom Moss
2010 Shelby GT500 vert with 2.9L 16 psi Whipple and rim upgrade. Rated 750HP/713TQ - 673/620 to the tire

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
src="/forums/images/smilies/salute.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Salute" class="inlineimg" />http://tmoss.efidynotuning.com/
tmoss is offline  
post #129 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 02:56 PM
rob
Registered User
 
rob's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (23)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 3,470
I didn't know mac made a 3" inch pipe for shorty headers, in will have to check it out.

I have the Ford 1 3/4" shorty headers and there outlet is very small.

1982 Ford Fairmont Futura H/C/I, fuel injected and turbocharged [email protected]
rob is offline  
post #130 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoss View Post
One thing came to mind for me - did we quote the welded and ported lower for you? If not, it needs to be for those cubes and the power you are looking for.
yes
tmoss likes this.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #131 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob View Post
I didn't know mac made a 3" inch pipe for shorty headers, in will have to check it out.

I have the Ford 1 3/4" shorty headers and there outlet is very small.
yes they have 3in but the collectors are 2.5in I cut them to 3in.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #132 of 315 Old 05-20-2019, 03:37 PM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (4)
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Georgia
Posts: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8ballar View Post
So what do y'all think Holley or Trick flow R long runner 90mm TB???????? (for a see what I'm leaving on the table test)

If I do the Trick Flow I may see if I can find someone with a box so I can just swap the upper and test for fun. But I don't care about the box that much, Doesn't match cam or car.
I’d skip the long runner and go with the box.

1996 Mustang
347, 205 11R's, Box R Intake, Ported lower, custom comp cam, 42lb injectors, 255LPH, pro-m 80, 75mm Cheap-ass TB, 1 3/4 x 3in LT's, exhaust by me, A5 trans, 4.10

422WHP/456Ft/lb. Tuned using QH by Tony @ Tuners Inc.
96pushrod is offline  
post #133 of 315 Old 05-21-2019, 11:07 AM
Registered User
 
bigj8550's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Evansville in
Posts: 28
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8ballar View Post
So what do y'all think Holley or Trick flow R long runner 90mm TB???????? (for a see what I'm leaving on the table test)

If I do the Trick Flow I may see if I can find someone with a box so I can just swap the upper and test for fun. But I don't care about the box that much, Doesn't match cam or car.
My personal thoughts are a Trick Flow R long runner, simply because I have one. I would love to see dyno data on it.
Str8ballar likes this.
bigj8550 is offline  
post #134 of 315 Old 05-21-2019, 11:32 AM
Registered User
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: DeKalb, IL.
Posts: 533
When you preface a thread with "How crazy am I", it could be noted that a person might be courting a wee bit of controversy. I'm not sure that with an added two stage shot of nitrous there need be much more discussion about leaving power on the table, but the aesthetic considerations can surely be appreciated by anyone whom is truly appreciative of the rich history of these cars. Seems to me you have a great looking car, and a solid plan to keep pace with the late model bullets.

I have never seen an increase in area under the curve taking runner length out of the EFI style intakes, I really think that if someone wants to go that route, use an intake designed to operate in the desired power band, rather than waste a bunch of time and energy (not to mention butchering an otherwise good casting) on a half measure. There are enough alternatives available these days to meet most needs.

We could take the camshaft selection process to a serious discussion that would probably derail this whole thread. A serious racer will likely do lash loops, and advance/retard a cam to decide whether to keep or alter the cam specifications. Software can get you close, but there is still nothing that will replace good old trial and error for the serious engine tuner.

As mentioned above, therein lies the problem with testing different components in a combination. As soon as the intake tract is modified (or the exhaust, or the compression, or the combustion chamber, etc..... ad infinitum) cam specs will also need to be optimized for the combination. Depending on how deep we venture down the rabbit hole, a serious discussion concerning "how much power can I make" is truly a slippery slope.

Personally, from some of the posts I've read from a very knowledgeable exhaust guy, I think there is still a good deal that can be done on the exhaust side of most of our combos. Cookie cutter shorties are probably one of the weakest links in your own combination. We all have to decide where to draw the line.

Jay
CDW6212R and Str8ballar like this.
petmotel is offline  
post #135 of 315 Old 05-22-2019, 01:26 PM
Registered User
 
AlexLTDLX's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MD
Posts: 5,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by petmotel View Post
Personally, from some of the posts I've read from a very knowledgeable exhaust guy, I think there is still a good deal that can be done on the exhaust side of most of our combos. Cookie cutter shorties are probably one of the weakest links in your own combination. We all have to decide where to draw the line.
Jay
I'm testing that exact theory. If I ever get it done. I've pulled my 1 3/4" shorties/3" Mac Prochamber/Jones Muffs with dumps to be replaced by a set of Kooks individual tube 1 3/4" longtubes, slip-on collectors with merge spike and straight 3" pipes going to the mufflers. No crossover either. Of course, I might change my thoughts on the crossover, but I'm taking the time to make the headers fit perfectly with minimal compromises (they're a used mild steel set - I'm taking out the dings, moving O2 sensor locations and ultimately will Cerakote them). Then, because it's me, I'm going to dyno test the whole mess. I've got 4 more tubes to deal with and I am hell bent on getting it done. Car's been down too long this time around.

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
AlexLTDLX is offline  
post #136 of 315 Old 05-22-2019, 01:45 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
I'm testing that exact theory. If I ever get it done. I've pulled my 1 3/4" shorties/3" Mac Prochamber/Jones Muffs with dumps to be replaced by a set of Kooks individual tube 1 3/4" longtubes, slip-on collectors with merge spike and straight 3" pipes going to the mufflers. No crossover either. Of course, I might change my thoughts on the crossover, but I'm taking the time to make the headers fit perfectly with minimal compromises (they're a used mild steel set - I'm taking out the dings, moving O2 sensor locations and ultimately will Cerakote them). Then, because it's me, I'm going to dyno test the whole mess. I've got 4 more tubes to deal with and I am hell bent on getting it done. Car's been down too long this time around.
Post back results please. Even with your power range. I just find it hard to believe it will be much difference now if you had 2.5in exhaust I would say yes but being you have 3in I'm saying like 5hp max.

Being you have the Jones mufflers I'm not sure but I know MAC makes their system to flow together so it gets its best results when put together Mac uses the Helmholtz Theory of Tone even. I did see some flow numbers on the Jones muffs and they will flow enough.
tmoss likes this.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #137 of 315 Old 05-22-2019, 02:43 PM
Registered User
 
AlexLTDLX's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MD
Posts: 5,080
I did a test at the track one night - I made a couple of hits with the mufflers, a few without and a couple more with - as close to A-B-A as possible. The difference in ET/mph was so small that it was likely the weight of the mufflers/flowtubes/dumps - we're talking a couple of hundredths at best. I do feel that with the blower, the motor's laying over a little earlier rpm-wise than it should - I shift at about 6,000-6,100 and would like to shift closer to 6,500 (it goes through the traps at about 6,300 with 3.08 gears). When I looked at the "collector" region of the shorty headers, there were indications of extreme heat in that area - the ceramic coating was dull, not shiny, and discolored. That got me thinking that maybe some part of the cork in the system might be the ball and socket collectors - even opening up the ball side as much as I could, I could only get the collectors up to about 2 3/8" diameter, and that part of the Mac prochamber necks down to 2.5" for a couple of inches. I also had to flatten the passenger side of the prochamber where it goes around my Ultrabell (right after the 2.5" section) down to about 2.5" on that side.

This setup will be as close to no compromise as I can reasonably muster. Rather than work around things, I'm moving them. For example - I had to remove my tranny catch can as it interfered with the collectors. I had to put in a chromoly tubular K member to make room for the headers; I've also trimmed extra steel off the spring perches and will have to modify my tranny cross member so there's no need for an "S" bend right after the header collectors. My heads have a standard SBF bolt pattern for the headers, restricting my primary tube diameter choices - thus the 1 3/4" primaries.

All that said, I'm expecting at least 25 rwhp and as much as 50 (but probably closer to 25) gain from this exhaust. Most of which I hope comes from an extended power band. We'll see. The previous setup definitely was compromised in a number of places - mostly around the collector area; and it wasn't practical to fix because of where the collectors on the shorties ended up.

One more thing to note - the Kooks headers are routed like a dream. Snug, perfect and tucked up - I'll have more ground clearance with these than I had with the prochamber. Probably an inch more.
CDW6212R likes this.

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
AlexLTDLX is offline  
post #138 of 315 Old 05-22-2019, 03:05 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Str8ballar's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Hattiesburg MS
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
I did a test at the track one night - I made a couple of hits with the mufflers, a few without and a couple more with - as close to A-B-A as possible. The difference in ET/mph was so small that it was likely the weight of the mufflers/flowtubes/dumps - we're talking a couple of hundredths at best. I do feel that with the blower, the motor's laying over a little earlier rpm-wise than it should - I shift at about 6,000-6,100 and would like to shift closer to 6,500 (it goes through the traps at about 6,300 with 3.08 gears). When I looked at the "collector" region of the shorty headers, there were indications of extreme heat in that area - the ceramic coating was dull, not shiny, and discolored. That got me thinking that maybe some part of the cork in the system might be the ball and socket collectors - even opening up the ball side as much as I could, I could only get the collectors up to about 2 3/8" diameter, and that part of the Mac prochamber necks down to 2.5" for a couple of inches. I also had to flatten the passenger side of the prochamber where it goes around my Ultrabell (right after the 2.5" section) down to about 2.5" on that side.

This setup will be as close to no compromise as I can reasonably muster. Rather than work around things, I'm moving them. For example - I had to remove my tranny catch can as it interfered with the collectors. I had to put in a chromoly tubular K member to make room for the headers; I've also trimmed extra steel off the spring perches and will have to modify my tranny cross member so there's no need for an "S" bend right after the header collectors. My heads have a standard SBF bolt pattern for the headers, restricting my primary tube diameter choices - thus the 1 3/4" primaries.

All that said, I'm expecting at least 25 rwhp and as much as 50 (but probably closer to 25) gain from this exhaust. Most of which I hope comes from an extended power band. We'll see. The previous setup definitely was compromised in a number of places - mostly around the collector area; and it wasn't practical to fix because of where the collectors on the shorties ended up.

One more thing to note - the Kooks headers are routed like a dream. Snug, perfect and tucked up - I'll have more ground clearance with these than I had with the prochamber. Probably an inch more.
I have the Mac and opened to ball up to 3in. If you still have the 2.5 I think you may see that gain also may bring up your RPM if not I'm guessing the Whipple is running out of gas? I will post some pics when I take it all apart.

Can you pass the part #s over It sounds nice I would like a little more ground clearance with my new setup?

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
Latest build
https://forums.corral.net/forums/member-build-up-projects/2484040-93-cobra-363ci-5speed-build.html
Str8ballar is offline  
post #139 of 315 Old 05-22-2019, 03:35 PM
Registered User
 
AlexLTDLX's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (7)
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: MD
Posts: 5,080
There was no way to open up the ball on the shorties to anything close to 3" - the Mac prochamber necks down to 2.5" at the junction for a reason. Even if I could, I was limited by the firewall/floor pan and the JW Ultrabell - the Prochamber routing on the passenger side is less than ideal. Just not gonna happen - believe me, I looked and stared long and hard at it before going this route.

Sorry, I don't have a part number for these headers, I bought them used from Bruce Hemminger on here and they came with a surprising amount of dents and dings, not to mention a good amount of surface rust inside. I got them for $275, and by the time you add everything in (K member, spring perches, maybe a tubular trans mount), and with me doing all the work (thankfully I own a TIG and have a good assortment of metal cutting/grinding tools - bandsaw, die grinder, burrs, benchtop beltsander, even made a tool to knock dents out of the inside of the tubes, etc) including blasting and Cerakoting the headers at home, it's still going to cast a cool grand by the time I'm done. Fortunately, I'm down to the final work and I've got a bunch of Cerakote swatches coming to decide on a color. They should look great when I'm done (I hope).

In the grand scheme of things, I didn't mind going this route because I knew I'd be doing a lot of cutting and welding to make it exactly how I want it, and I'd hate to do that to $1,000+ headers. Heck, to minimize weld intrusion on the inside of the tubes, I'm using .035 MIG wire as TIG filler rod. It's interesting to say the least.

And yes, I think the Whipple is at it's limit. So that's a factor too. I expect boost to drop (along with IATs), so that might contribute to some gain - even blower HP consumption should go down. There's a lot of factors at play in my case.
Str8ballar likes this.

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
AlexLTDLX is offline  
post #140 of 315 Old 06-08-2019, 04:17 PM
Registered User
 
ecv_650's Avatar
 
Trader Feedback: (0)
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: east palo alto,california
Posts: 55
The 11r Head is underrated ,You’re better off with the tw 190cc 11r they flow same as a Afr205, the 11r 205 is more like a afr 220. You’re basically putting a 220cc Head with a cobra intake you won’t have anybody bottom power nor upper since your limited by the cobra intake

1990 410w
ecv_650 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale Cobra c heads, 96-98 intake cams, 01 cobra intake maverick_26 Modular Engine Parts 11 08-20-2014 01:31 PM
For Sale Parting 97 cobra, Vortech, Ted skid, B heads 96-98 intake, imrc delete rolocut94 Miscellaneous Mustang Parts 0 05-31-2014 06:05 PM
For Sale 96 Cobra Part Out bmwm3 Exterior Parts 25 09-03-2012 12:21 AM
03 Mach 1 engine going into a 2000 gt everett2 GT & SOHC 8 08-15-2012 08:14 PM
!!!CAUTION!!! Controversial Topic: How true is this? 8th paragraph My95tang5.0 SVT & DOHC 40 08-02-2012 07:45 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome