363 how crazy am I Cobra intake - Page 3 - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #71 of 302 Old 01-31-2019, 09:56 PM
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You can choose to "gouge" your customers or not, Tom - it's your business.
Never been and never will be something we do as part of our support to the enthusiasts of this hobby..........


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post #72 of 302 Old 01-31-2019, 10:33 PM
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You can choose to "gouge" your customers or not, Tom - it's your business.
Never been and never will be something we do as part of our support to the enthusiasts of this hobby..........
We need more with that mindset. Keep up the good work!!

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post #73 of 302 Old 02-01-2019, 11:22 AM
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We need more with that mindset. Keep up the good work!!
Speaking from personal experience, the lower I had Tom port to match AFR 165s looked more like artwork than porting.
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post #74 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 01:05 AM
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Ok guys, just got done with the testing and we were a little surprised by the results, if you have a certain intake you might want to sell it before it this spreads.
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post #75 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 02:29 AM
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LOL, post up.
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post #76 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 09:43 AM
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No disrespect to you, because I've kept an eye on your projects, but it sounds to me that you need to swap converter makers.
Believe me, I didn't say what I did lightly; and no worries - a healthy discussion is always a good thing.

My converter is made by Neal Knight at BTE (if you aren't familiar with BTE, google them - they make hi po tranny parts that a lot of assemblers use - they've been around for decades - awesome people who really know their stuff). It's a 10" billet steel cover converter with a "C" stator. I did send it back to BTE for a re-stall - it's as tight as they can make it. It's heavy as hell - at least 30 lbs. I run the thicker John Deere Hyguard fluid in the tranny just to tighten it up a hair more.

Upon releasing the trans brake (set to 3,200), the RPM shoots up to about 4,200-4,400 rpm; I shift at 6,100 (or so) rpm, and fallback on the shift is at 5,200 rpm; it runs through the traps at about 6,300 rpm running 140 mph. This is with 26" tires and 3.08 gears. The car weighs between 3460 and 3540 lbs, depending how much ice is left in the cooler in the trunk (I bring 80lbs with me, and I use about 10-15 lbs in the A/W intercooler per pass, depending on how full I pack it. All the ice in the tank is melted after 1 pass.) I see roughly 11% slip at the stripe. Not horrible, but not particularly good either.

I spoke not only with Neal (who advised me not to use to transbrake - the lower numerically your gears are and the heavier the car is exacerbate the problem - both place more load on the driveline; my car is relatively heavy, it makes a lot of low rpm torque and it doesn't like to turn much past 6,000 rpm), but I also spoke with Lane at PTC (as well as one of his resellers Dustin), Lenny at Ultimate Converter Concepts and even Marty Chance at Neal Chance. They all said the same thing - they couldn't improve on my current converter given all the info.

They further advised me to find some more RPM if possible, which is what I'm doing in the form of Kooks slip fit longtubes to replace the ball and socket shorties I had on the car - I tried pulling the mufflers and dumps at the track and saw no change. I'm also closing up the plug gaps even more - I've noticed the NGKs wear fast and to maintain consistant high rpm performance under boost, I need to keep the gaps small - like .018 or .020.

That was the background behind my previous comment.

Sorry for the somewhat off topic post, but hopefully it helps others planning their combo - you need some RPM to go down the track as efficiently as possible, especially in an auto; low RPM torque in a race car is about as useful as the Pope's nipples. (ok, I'm exaggerating a bit, but if you read this far, you deserve a chuckle).

Still looking forward to the dyno data!
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post #77 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 10:44 AM
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I run around 25 degrees under boost watch timing on a Ford style 351W truck knock detector back behind the intake on that flat area.

I use NGK's and I played with gap, it made zero difference if they were at .020 or .035, so put them in with whatever the gap is out of the box. I just eyeball them and if they look OK in they go. I just changed them because I had things apart, and if the plating wasn't eaten off I'd have left them in. The new ones went in right out of the box.

I change plugs as a matter of convenience when my belly pan is off or the upper pipes out of the way. I don't worry about running the plugs two or three months. Other than soot from idle or driving in and out of the trailer or car barn, and loss of plating from the K16 fuel eating the plating, they show no tip wear at all. I use a ~150 mJ CD ignition, OEM 1989 TFI distributor modified to be cam sync, and 36-1 tooth crank trigger.

My ignition box is about the same spark energy as a MSD 6AL.

I run up to 30 psi boost, up to 8000 RPM, K16 fuel. mid to high 140's in the 1/8th in 3200 lbs. Doesn't matter if I run muffler and full exhaust or dump by the front tire, my turbo is the restriction setting hotside pressure. I run 50 psi hotside backpressure.


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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #78 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 12:09 PM
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I street drive a lot. My gaps will go from .020 to .030 in about 1,500 miles. I run an accel 300+ ignition box (the only one of the "new" ones I've bought that hasn't failed - 2 cranes and 1 MSD; my old Jacobs box was awesome - ran for 20 years, would light off during cranking even if the battery was weak, etc). At .030 it starts to break up above 5,800 rpm.

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'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
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post #79 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
I street drive a lot. My gaps will go from .020 to .030 in about 1,500 miles. I run an accel 300+ ignition box (the only one of the "new" ones I've bought that hasn't failed - 2 cranes and 1 MSD; my old Jacobs box was awesome - ran for 20 years, would light off during cranking even if the battery was weak, etc). At .030 it starts to break up above 5,800 rpm.
Something seems contradictory. Electrode erosion is often from excessive spark plasma (current after being struck), but being gap critical (assuming a good mixture and normal fuels) is from low spark voltage.

I've never looked at an Accel box.

Do you have the proper coil? Are you also eroding the distributor rotor tip or cap terminals?


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89 LX. 363, single turbo, Super Vic EFI, TFS high port heads by TEA, solid roller, glide. Holley HP EFI. (exact combo varies)
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post #80 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 02:30 PM
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It's about to get REALLY technical...in a good way.


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post #81 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tobias Aldrete View Post
Ok guys, just got done with the testing and we were a little surprised by the results, if you have a certain intake you might want to sell it before it this spreads.
I have this sinking feeling that I might be pulling the Cobra and putting the Holley on my new DD 363. Nothing like a rework before the engine even finds it's way into the car. Worst part is I already had the Systemax, spent a fair amount for the '94/'95 Cobra plus the cost of porting. . Waiting with much anticipation the results of these pulls.

Whatever the outcome, I would like to thank the CHP crew for taking the time, and effort to contribute to our community, and it's collective knowledge base.

Jay
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post #82 of 302 Old 02-02-2019, 02:50 PM
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Something seems contradictory. Electrode erosion is often from excessive spark plasma (current after being struck), but being gap critical (assuming a good mixture and normal fuels) is from low spark voltage.

I've never looked at an Accel box.

Do you have the proper coil? Are you also eroding the distributor rotor tip or cap terminals?
Don't quote my mileage/wear numbers as exact - it's "as I remember." Either way, it's kinda close. Both the strap and the center electrodes show wear, with the center electrode getting a bit rounded. NGKs definitely don't last as long as autolites, but the autolites are harder to read and suffer from corona staining. Different ignition boxes also show different wear. The MSD box was the least wear, the NASCAR Crane Hi-6 had the most. I'm using a crane coil, BTW. The rotor does wear, but not as fast as the plugs. The cap wears least (I usually buy caps with brass terminals if I can). I was a little surprised at the amount of wear (I discovered it after a dyno session) after a short span of time. But since I pull and check plugs often, combined with the relatively low miles I drive (even my daily doesn't see 10,000 a year - but I spend a LOT of time in the car - DC traffic is no joke), it' not an issue. I just put in fresh plugs at .018-.020 and they're good for a year if I leave them in that long. Actually, the only place you notice it is on the dyno or the long pull from the 1/8 to the 1/4 at the track. That's the hardest on a car.

But I drive this car around - not just onto a trailer and down a track. You're talking about 2-3 months out of a barn and onto a trailer; I'm talking a year of actual brutal traffic. I think there's probably the difference. A good drive into work downtown is 14 miles and takes anywhere from an hour and 10 minutes to just under 2 hours. The drive to the track is 30 miles each way, but I can't get there in less than an hour - and that's not towards the city.

I would love to pick your brain on that knock sensor though. I might start a separate thread (or you can, if you don't mind). That would be cool.

Feel free to PM me if you wish to pursue this - I'm feeling guilty about crapping up this thread with other stuff. But I'm ok with what's going on with my ignition (more or less - kinda far down the totem pole).

In the mean time, Tobias - please post up your findings! We're all dying here!

AlexLTDLX

'84 LTD LX - 9.83 at 140.09. Whippled 365 SBF with a glide and 3.08 gears. Driven to and from the track 60 miles without even changing tire pressure.
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post #83 of 302 Old 02-07-2019, 08:20 PM
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OP-have you decided to stick to your decision to use the Cobra on this build? After seeing the numbers from CHP on their 331, I decided I wasn't good with it and swapped out to the Holley. Doesn't make sense to me to build a Dart block, full forged bottom end, good heads with high RPM valvetrain capability, and then hamstring the build with too small of an intake.

I figure it will cost at least 50 peak horsepower, and strangle the engine above 4500 RPM. Cost is just too high even for my humble goals. It was difficult, I still remember when I bought my '95 GTS brand new. The dealer had a GT-R in the showroom, I have always loved the look of that 351 with the Cobra intake.

Edit; I knew when I was writing this that GT-R didn't seem right, of course those were CobraRs, bad boys for sure in their day.

Jay
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OP-have you decided to stick to your decision to use the Cobra on this build? After seeing the numbers from CHP on their 331, I decided I wasn't good with it and swapped out to the Holley. Doesn't make sense to me to build a Dart block, full forged bottom end, good heads with high RPM valvetrain capability, and then hamstring the build with too small of an intake.

I figure it will cost at least 50 peak horsepower, and strangle the engine above 4500 RPM. Cost is just too high even for my humble goals. It was difficult, I still remember when I bought my '95 GTS brand new. The dealer had a GT-R in the showroom, I have always loved the look of that 351 with the Cobra intake.


Jay
Years ago I was all about speed/hp now I'm more about knowledge and just having fun.

I'm not saying CHP is wrong but I don't see any reason to believe the intake was maxed out it did 1.2 per CI a 302 does right at the same on average if it was less then I would say I agree but that just tells me it should do 1.2 with a 363 and that is 435hp keep in mind also his compression was low and it still did 1.2. I will be happy with 435hp thats about 370hp to the wheels. I will test the cobra and the Holley on my car just for fun just maybe a while. I don't see why you don't test both also? You have the cobra on and plan on changing.

Keep in mind I also will be running 2 150shots on it. So its going to get down the road regardless. LOL

I wish CHP would let me send them my 363 and a Tmoss intake and get the real Flywheel numbers. Or if they build a 363 I may could send one their way for fun.
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post #85 of 302 Old 02-07-2019, 09:44 PM
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I'd like to see anybody's fully ported GT40 upper and lower on a 363 for the data - but for the record, we don't recommend it unless the owner knows what he will get and we do that with the data we have. A 331 is marginal as well, but the same applies.

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post #86 of 302 Old 02-08-2019, 12:01 AM
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If power loss was not that big of a deal on a stroker I would use a modified Tubular GT40 intake simply because it looks cool, and gets lots of Ooooh's and Aaah's at car shows. Other than that I don't think I could justify using one unless it was a Cobra, and I wanted a sleeper.
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If power loss was not that big of a deal on a stroker I would use a modified Tubular GT40 intake simply because it looks cool, and gets lots of Ooooh's and Aaah's at car shows. Other than that I don't think I could justify using one unless it was a Cobra, and I wanted a sleeper.
My car is a 93 Cobra
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post #88 of 302 Old 02-08-2019, 09:20 AM
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My car is a 93 Cobra
beautiful color combination - where's your rear wheel center cap?
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post #89 of 302 Old 02-08-2019, 09:29 AM Thread Starter
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beautiful color combination - where's your rear wheel center cap?
I was just taking a pic of my new widened wheels at that time.

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post #90 of 302 Old 02-08-2019, 10:40 AM
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If power loss was not that big of a deal on a stroker I would use a modified Tubular GT40 intake simply because it looks cool, and gets lots of Ooooh's and Aaah's at car shows. Other than that I don't think I could justify using one unless it was a Cobra, and I wanted a sleeper.
I still remember the first time I saw a Gt40 intake. It was about 1992 or 1993 at the street races in South Fort Worth. Some guy had a red fox GT with no hood on it. There were no other intakes for the 5.0 liter engine at the time besides the custon trick flow piece that used a truck intake. I saw it and did a double take. It was like something from Star Trek.

Someone needs to get a 363 on CHP's dyno and plug in a bunch of different heads and intakes. The Youtube views alone would make it a worthwhile affair I would think.
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My car is a 93 Cobra

I love those wheels and the 93 Cobra's.


Those center caps are not labeled, do you know how rare they are or how similar they might be to any other Mustang center caps?


I have the 98 GT wheels(split five spoke), which have a horse on the caps. I need something else that doesn't have a Mustang reference, these are going on my Ranchero.

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post #92 of 302 Old 02-08-2019, 11:41 PM
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My car is a 93 Cobra
Then the GT40 intake will look just right on that car. Nice Cobra, and black too, one of my favorite colors.

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I still remember the first time I saw a Gt40 intake. It was about 1992 or 1993 at the street races in South Fort Worth. Some guy had a red fox GT with no hood on it. There were no other intakes for the 5.0 liter engine at the time besides the custon trick flow piece that used a truck intake. I saw it and did a double take. It was like something from Star Trek.

Someone needs to get a 363 on CHP's dyno and plug in a bunch of different heads and intakes. The Youtube views alone would make it a worthwhile affair I would think.
For years I wanted a polished tubular GT40 intake. A friend of mine had a polished one on a white/blue stripes 1965 convertible GT350 Shelby clone resto-mod with EFI swap/AFR 165 heads. That car turned heads at car shows, and ended up being a museum car even though it wasn't actually period correct. Polished Cobra valve covers and the Polished Tubular intake really made the engine bay stand out combined with a shaved engine bay. I wish I had pictures, but that car was built over 10 years ago.

I decided it was cheaper to just buy an RPM 2, or Holley Systemax which would ultimately make more power anyways. That Tubular intake really did look out of this world.
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post #93 of 302 Old 02-09-2019, 03:37 AM
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Well I surely do understand your wish to retain the Cobra manifold for aesthetic reasons, and I'm sure the old girl will really dance doing the nitrous two step boogie. Best of luck, gorgeous car!

I've already got the Holley mounted on my engine, not a fan of in car manifold swaps due to the inevitable coolant in the cylinder bores. When you see the hone finish on your engine, you will understand.

Jay
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Originally Posted by Str8ballar View Post
My car is a 93 Cobra

I love those wheels and the 93 Cobra's.


Those center caps are not labeled, do you know how rare they are or how similar they might be to any other Mustang center caps?


I have the 98 GT wheels(split five spoke), which have a horse on the caps. I need something else that doesn't have a Mustang reference, these are going on my Ranchero.
I’ve actually seen a few people who run the split 5 spokes and just take off the center caps.

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post #95 of 302 Old 02-09-2019, 02:08 PM
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I also understand the want to retain the intake on hand.
Upper powder coated, lower ported by Tom Moss, sitting on a 347 with massaged AFR 165s.
How much horsepower and torque? Could not care less.
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I also understand the want to retain the intake on hand.
Upper powder coated, lower ported by Tom Moss, sitting on a 347 with massaged AFR 165s.
How much horsepower and torque? Could not care less.
I like your style. Clean

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post #97 of 302 Old 02-09-2019, 05:08 PM
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I also understand the want to retain the intake on hand.
Upper powder coated, lower ported by Tom Moss, sitting on a 347 with massaged AFR 165s.
How much horsepower and torque? Could not care less.
That’s nice!
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post #98 of 302 Old 02-09-2019, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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3 more set of dyno numbers 1 made 450hp at 6,600rpms peak HP (This had a 70mm TB 75mm maybe good for 10-12 more hp.

All 3 made 1.2 per/ci to 1.29 per/ci

At the end of the day the best intake does make 30 more hp. (That .24 off my 1/4 mile and 2.57 off my mph) 3,400 pound car

Super Intake Shootout - Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords

Mustang Street/Strip Intake Test - 5.0 Engine Intake Manifolds - 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Magazine

5.0 Engine Intake Comparison - 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Magazine

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
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post #99 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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Motor will be in at the end of the month.

Ended up setting the max RPM at 6,500. This way I know I can max out the cobra and still try other intakes to see real number differences. Also The GT40 port guy on Facebook says he can get it to pull up to 6,300rpms with a GT40 so we will see.

I'm going to put the ported cobra intake on that Tmoss did now tune the car take it to the dyno and get numbers.

Then send another cobra intake I have off to the guy on Facebook and have him do his max porting to it. Change out and get numbers.

Then depending on them numbers I will send my Tmoss intake back to him and see if he can beat that guys numbers (Tmoss didn't max it out the first go round so I just want to see how close they are the first go round then see the after plus I don't want to waste his time if the Facebook guy is full of it. Or maybe the intake is maxed out and there is no point)

After this or maybe during all this I will try another intake like a trick flow track heat or R just to see that I'm leaving on the table.

I'm sure all this will take me a year or so but hope to have the motor running with Tmoss ported cobra intake on and tuned in the next few months.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
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post #100 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Anyone want to guess HP#s

This is the motor will have Tmoss ported intake, I'm saying 400rwhp at 5,300 rpms

TKO 600, 1 3/4 shorties 3in collector and 3in out the back.

Dart SHP 363 Internal Balanced, Trickflow 11R 205 heads 66cc (Fel Pro MLS 1134 Head Gaskets). 10.1 compression
RPM 4340 crank, Scat 4340 H Beam Rods, 2618 Forged Wiseco Pistons, Wiseco's GFX ring. Motor is good for 9k rpms if I used solid lifters (I'm not).
Custom cam for NA (Idle to 6,500rpms)
8 way adjustable SA Gear billet timing chain with a torrigton bearing
Morel HYD roller link bar lifters. (5323)
3/8 pushrods 4130 Chromemoly
Jesel shaft rockers (They only make one for the 11r heads) (KPS-470191)
Moroso Oil Pan with billet end seals (oil drainback added supercharger or turbo just if I ever want to go that direction)
Melling Standard Volume Oil Pump (10687)(I didn't want a high volume pump)
Moroso Oil Pump Pick up (24516)
ARP Billet Oil Pumpshaft
New timing cover
Edelbrock Water Pump (8840)

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
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post #101 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 08:10 PM
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I have a nearly identical build made 415/407 with what I believe was a bad tune. I think you’ll make 420/415, but I hope you make more.
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post #102 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JV106 View Post
I have a nearly identical build made 415/407 with what I believe was a bad tune. I think you’ll make 420/415, but I hope you make more.
GT40 intake and 363?

If yes was it ported?

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
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post #103 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 08:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JV106 View Post
I have a nearly identical build made 415/407 with what I believe was a bad tune. I think you’ll make 420/415, but I hope you make more.
If you would post your build I would love to see what you had to compare.

93 cobra Dart 363 11r205 heads T-56 Magnum 2.66 cobra intake 3in shorties 3in out the back
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post #104 of 302 Old 05-15-2019, 08:41 PM
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Lol. No, sorry I guess that part is critical. I have a box r. Shorty headers with 2.5”, 190 r heads, 9.8:1 compression. Those are the biggest differences I see.
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post #105 of 302 Old 05-17-2019, 03:30 PM
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If you are talking about Tony at Bigdog, he will remove 2" of the runner in the upper. That may help the 363 make more top end.

You can't really compare a true long runner with a shortened one on a 363 as apples-to-apples so let's get that out there.

We have done shortened uppers for HO and GT40 applications but they were used on 302-308 motors with rpm limits of 6,000 as a practicle matter. What we saw was more power near the top but the loss of torque in the mid range made it about a wash. This being a 363 could change that and we never did one that we got feedback on for a 347 or 363. Our results for long runner ported intakes are on both our sites as dyno and track data. You could run his intake with shortened upper, swap our lower for his and then get a better idea.

Also, the cam design could play into results significantly - Anderson Ford Motorsports designed their shelf cams to rev into the 6,700 rpm range with a long runner but those cams will probably be different than one that Ed Curtic would spec.
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2010 Shelby GT500 vert with 2.9L 16 psi Whipple and rim upgrade. Rated 750HP/713TQ - 673/620 to the tire

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