372rwhp/349rwtq Stock Bottom End 302 N/A - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 05:07 PM Thread Starter
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372rwhp/349rwtq Stock Bottom End 302 N/A

Hi gents!



Took the old 302 to the dyno today since installing my most recent cam from Ed Curtis @ FTI.



Just a little background on my previous setup - a previous cam from Ed (from an old combo with AFR 165 heads and a Cobra intake) with Trick Flow 190 11Rs, Holley SM2, 1-3/4 used MAC longtubes, summit universal 3" X-pipe. 4.10 gears, 80mm MAF and home-made 4 inch MAF. Even with the old mismatched cam, it put down 350/341 and ran 11.8 @ 116. Let me say from the get go, I made it clear that this car is driven a lot. It's no 500 mile/year show car or race car. It's made several trips across the midwest (I am near St. Louis) to Louisville, KY Des Moines, IA, it goes everywhere.



Told Ed what I wanted - a cam to take advantage of the induction and exhaust system I am using, with a broad powerband, and I let him know I am not afraid to rev my stock bottom end to 6700ish, give or take.



Below is the dyno sheet, I'm working on uploading the dyno video.





Don't mind the smoke in the video, just my 137k mile rear main seal that likes to make itself known when high RPMs are in order, spitting a little oil on my exhaust.

Only difference between the setup I mentioned above (before cam) and new is a new electric water pump, and of course the cam. The powerband is broad and fun, I am already making 300 ft-lbs of torque before 3k RPM, and this dyno run was only done once because you could hear in person (and sort of see the mini-dip it takes in the graph right before 6430 which is where peak power is) that I am likely experiencing valve float - I am on the stock springs that came with the head, out of the box, and the air/fuel log on my dyno run shows the 2 banks differing quite a bit and jumping all over the graph after 6400 rpms.



The heads are straight from the box 190 11Rs with 56cc chambers with no porting, and the lower intake of the SM2 essentially has light porting to help match the heads, and cleaned up casting flash in the upper. Also, when I say stock bottom end - I mean the oil pan has never even been off of the motor.



This car was bought as a bone stock 86 GT, and I installed all parts myself. There is no weight intentionally taken out of the car (stuff like aluminum heads/radiator lost some, as well as smog removal), and it has power steering, A/C, power windows and locks - in other words, it is the definition of a street car and the manners reflect this as well. It's a 1.5 hour drive to and from the tuner, and it purred like a kitten smoothly at 2,000 rpms on the interstate to (yes, even untuned) and from the appointment. I repeatedly beat the piss out of it on the way home when I had stretches of open road, and it just begs for more!



Can't wait to install a set of springs and go hunting for some 120mph trap speeds.


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post #2 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 05:26 PM
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The best part of your entire post is you did all the work yourself. I have a lot of nice expensive parts in my motor build and I'm sure if I had an experienced builder put it all together it would probably have a few more ponies, a little more torque and run a little bit better but there is no beating the feeling I have when I'm driving around in something I did myself. Sounds like you get that same feeling

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post #3 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 05:30 PM
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post #4 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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The best part of your entire post is you did all the work yourself. I have a lot of nice expensive parts in my motor build and I'm sure if I had an experienced builder put it all together it would probably have a few more ponies, a little more torque and run a little bit better but there is no beating the feeling I have when I'm driving around in something I did myself. Sounds like you get that same feeling
Thanks a lot, Brian! The reason I do it myself is a mixture of reasons. Between having nobody to blame but myself if things go wrong, and the satisfaction of knowing you accomplished something, it's definitely fun. I've also seen first hand where "shops" take their sweet ass time and show little attention to detail because they view it as nothing more than a road to payment. When I put it together, I took twice as long and checked things 3 and 4 times. This was my first cam degreeing experience and I spent 2 hours alone verifying valve events and timing the thing.

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post #5 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 05:48 PM
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Can't wait to see the video!
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post #6 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 07:35 PM
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I taught the 11r heads came with springs that are something like 150 on seat and like 420+ open (can't remember exact numbers of the top of my head). You don't think that instead of springs that it could be your lifters causing valve float?
Great numbers by the way!!
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post #7 of 255 Old 06-27-2017, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks! The lifters were brand new from Ford Motorsport, less than 5k miles on them, and guys have taken them higher than I am. Pre-load is half turn past 0 lash as well, which I think is definitely fine for 66-6700 rpm.


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post #8 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 12:25 AM
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That little 302 thinks its a 351!
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post #9 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 11:15 AM
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Heck yeah! SAE at the wheels, that thing is rockin'!
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post #10 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 12:36 PM
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This was my first cam degreeing experience and I spent 2 hours alone verifying valve events and timing the thing.
I'm sure that is one of your secrets to success. Blows my mind how many shops just line up the dots and roll.

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post #11 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 12:59 PM
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Wow. Makes me wonder what would happen with a custom cam in my 331 which has AFR 185's and TF R-series (not the box) intake. After I complete my exhaust upgrade a cam will be on my list.

Contrats on the stellar results.
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post #12 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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372rwhp/349rwtq Stock Bottom End 302 N/A

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Wow. Makes me wonder what would happen with a custom cam in my 331 which has AFR 185's and TF R-series (not the box) intake. After I complete my exhaust upgrade a cam will be on my list.



Contrats on the stellar results.


Thanks, man. Port the Trick Flow intake. David Claflin has some posts on here showing what the inside of the R looks like. Inside, the runners taper down to a smaller cross section than either end of the runner, during the 180 degree turn, and you can't see it unless you cut it. Have it ported by someone capable. Stock block? I told Ed I wanted no more than 6700 RPM. Call me ballsy but my local tuner who is very reputable, hasn't broken a 302 stock block on the dyno around 7k RPMs. I'm ready for people to call BS, this is just my second hand relaying of his experience. I have a Romac balancer and when the transmission dies, I'll get an aluminum flywheel as well.

Ed was great to work with and he's the best in the business if you ask me.

Dyno numbers be damned, this thing is fun on the street, just as it is on a long stretch of open road. 300 foot pounds before 3k rpm kind of dispels the whole "big heads kill low end torque" myth. The cam ties it all together and I'm probably gonna leave it as is and just drive the piss out of it for a while!
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post #13 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 02:41 PM
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My 331 makes 348hp & 352 ft-lbs. 300+ ft-lbs from 3000-5800. Kinda in the ball park you are in except you have 20-some less cubic inches.
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post #14 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 03:00 PM
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My 331 makes 348hp & 352 ft-lbs. 300+ ft-lbs from 3000-5800. Kinda in the ball park you are in except you have 20-some less cubic inches.
And hes got 24whp on you too...
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post #15 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 03:07 PM
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As I said "kinda in the ball park". Head to head we would, probably, be a drivers race. His result is impressive.
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As I said "kinda in the ball park". Head to head we would, probably, be a drivers race. His result is impressive.
Whats the best your car has ran? OP said he went 11.80 at 116 with his old setup making 350/341.

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post #17 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 03:43 PM
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A.) Haven't run it yet. Just got it and I am correcting a few things before I start running it. So I don't know yet and any guesses would be pure speculation.
B.) Even when I do run it, it will be on regular radials at least for this year and maybe next year.
C.) Once I do run it, I will find out how much driver mod I need to do.

So it won't be apples to apples anyway.

But put two equally capable driver's in the cars and I am pretty sure it would be relatively close. 24 whp is notable, but not overly significant.

As I have eluded to. Props to the OP. His results are impressive. My hats off to him especially since he has eclipsed me on the dyno with less displacement. I am using his experience to ballpark my expectations once I start running my car.
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Thanks guys.

Hoping for 120mph traps and 11.4s this year. I don't expect my HP gain alone to get me 4 tenths faster, but the usable RPM range I have now blows the old one out of the water.

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post #19 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjm73 View Post
A.) Haven't run it yet. Just got it and I am correcting a few things before I start running it. So I don't know yet and any guesses would be pure speculation.
B.) Even when I do run it, it will be on regular radials at least for this year and maybe next year.
C.) Once I do run it, I will find out how much driver mod I need to do.

So it won't be apples to apples anyway.

But put two equally capable driver's in the cars and I am pretty sure it would be relatively close. 24 whp is notable, but not overly significant.

As I have eluded to. Props to the OP. His results are impressive. My hats off to him especially since he has eclipsed me on the dyno with less displacement. I am using his experience to ballpark my expectations once I start running my car.
Gotcha.

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post #20 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 06:44 PM
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Whats the total Combo for putting out 372Rwhp?

TFS 11R 190CC?
Custom Cam FTI?
Holley Systemax 2 intake

What yours whole exhaust system for pulling 372rwhp?

What size injectors? What size maf? What size TB?
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post #21 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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190 11R, 56cc - not modified, straight from the box

FTI Cam, intended use - very streetable with great top end

Holley with some lower and upper cleaning up to smooth transitions, Tmoss ported lower

3" Summit Universal X pipe, going in to 2.5" Dynomax UltraFlo mufflers, 2.5" tail pipes out back.

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Throttle body is 80mm BBK.

Air filter is Air Raid track day filter.

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Smog equipment completely ditched.


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post #22 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 10:03 PM
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Thats 434hp at the crank, Very powerfull engine congrats.

I think you have the Maxed out Power out of a 302 with your parts with HR camshaft.

Dont think anyone can get more than 435Crank HP without going solid roller and spinning that past 6400RPM.

Im also looking to make a similar combo.
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post #23 of 255 Old 06-28-2017, 10:51 PM
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With 374 rwhp that 86 GT should easily run low 11's/high 10's at 120-122 mph. Good luck - let us know what it runs at the track!

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post #24 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 09:49 AM
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That's a solid combo, I don't think it's picking up a second from a cam swap, but a couple tenths would be possible. It gives me great hope. I've got my carb version, (rebuilt stock piston bottom end, 11r 190's, Buddy cam , ect..) waiting on early fall to drop in. I'm shooting for 330 on the mean old dyno I go to. But I might have to drive across to state to visit this one

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That's a solid combo, I don't think it's picking up a second from a cam swap, but a couple tenths would be possible. It gives me great hope. I've got my carb version, (rebuilt stock piston bottom end, 11r 190's, Buddy cam , ect..) waiting on early fall to drop in. I'm shooting for 330 on the mean old dyno I go to. But I might have to drive across to state to visit this one


Lol, this isn't a happy dyno if that's what you're getting at. Any ricer online calculator you use will say at 350 horsepower and my car's weight (which I guess to be 3350-3400, I am 240), I should have run in the 12s.



I'm not expecting a ton of gains from power alone, but how much more usable RPM I have. Shifting at 6700 will put me right before peak power again on the shift. Plus I can cut my 60' down in the 1.5 range if I work at it. I'm hoping to gain 4-5 tenths in the 1/4.

What's the rest of the combo you're putting together? Looks like you've got the right foundation!

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post #26 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 10:48 AM
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Impressive!
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post #27 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 11:30 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Miffy. You are the sole person that comes to mind when I think about turning stock blocks hard. I know you cracked your block with 330hp under 6k, right?

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Good job you!

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Compared to the kick you in the nuts dyno I go to,you're making 23hp more and the same torque that my Fordstrokers 347 with the 11r heads did , yes I'm implying that it's friendlier than that, I'm not saying your not backing it up as it was already throwing down some impressive #'s. My 83 GT weighs in just under 3000 with ac and no real weight reductions except aluminum heads and driveshaft, so you might be a little lighter.
I've got a RPM Performer intake, with some port matching to the heads and a little center plenum work, 1in spacer Quick Fuel 650 DP , my weak link is the exhaust with just some 1 5/8 shorties, 2.5 OR h - pipe, Dynomax ultraflo cat back out the back. Cam was made for a spirited driver and max power around 62-6300. Except the shortblock with cam, all the parts are the same as my 347 had and it made 350 at 5700. Moving the revs up about 500 I figure I'll gain back most of what I'll lose from displacement , so I'm shooting for 330.

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post #30 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 01:25 PM
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Compared to the kick you in the nuts dyno I go to,you're making 23hp more and the same torque that my Fordstrokers 347 with the 11r heads did , yes I'm implying that it's friendlier than that, I'm not saying your not backing it up as it was already throwing down some impressive #'s. My 83 GT weighs in just under 3000 with ac and no real weight reductions except aluminum heads and driveshaft, so you might be a little lighter.
I've got a RPM Performer intake, with some port matching to the heads and a little center plenum work, 1in spacer Quick Fuel 650 DP , my weak link is the exhaust with just some 1 5/8 shorties, 2.5 OR h - pipe, Dynomax ultraflo cat back out the back. Cam was made for a spirited driver and max power around 62-6300. Except the shortblock with cam, all the parts are the same as my 347 had and it made 350 at 5700. Moving the revs up about 500 I figure I'll gain back most of what I'll lose from displacement , so I'm shooting for 330.
You def had something wrong there...

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There are 10 million other factors that need to be laid out before you can make a blanket comparison between two motors with the same heads on them.

If funds were endless, I'd have a Box R intake and 90mm throttle body. To save some coin I am likely going to cut the bottom portion of my Systemax upper off (so it still bolts to the lower) and fab my own upper. I know the cross section is there, as is, to flow what my 302 can move, but that 180 degree turn just doesn't make me happy. I don't even like the turn the air has to take to get from the air filter to the TB inlet, that 90 degree (roughly) bend. I'll probably save up for a 90mm TB or even a 105 if I can. People reading this think I am kidding, I'm not.

If your dyno is that far off, then I'd recommend going elsewhere. The one I go to certainly doesn't read high, I know that from my own experience and track #s.

Also about the weight, there isn't a solitary chance in hell I am lighter than 3k lbs without me in it. It was 3260 stock without me in it, I weighed it and have a picture of the printout from the certified scale. It lost probably 100lbs total between aluminum heads and losing smog, I also have aluminum driveshaft. I weigh 240, so 3260-100+240 brings us back up to 3400lbs with me driving.

Where are you located? I haven't raced another fox body since I've had this car

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post #32 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 02:11 PM
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I am super impressed.You are doing what i like to do.I run small motors and make big hp with them.The only thing I suggest to you is get those crappy FMS lifters out before they let you down and put in a set of tie bar style lifters if you are gonna be turning it over 6200
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post #33 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 03:24 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I'll test my luck! Having way too much fun to tear it down to a bare shortblock just for lifters

Thanks for the nice words!

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post #34 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 03:29 PM
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Good read, and i like the work. I'm hoping to follow a similar path with the TF heads , Holley intake and the Ed Curtis cam on my 86 stock block motor.

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post #35 of 255 Old 06-29-2017, 03:45 PM Thread Starter
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Appreciate it, Joe!

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