FORD vs CHI vs AFD vs TFS - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 13 Old 04-10-2019, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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FORD vs CHI vs AFD vs TFS

I post here because of the Cleveland expertise.
Iím building a stroker 351C with Eagle Crank / Scat Rods.
Iím shooting for 450-500hp RELIABLE street warrior.
It will be about 383ci.
4 bolt main, forged RaceTec pistons to 10.1 compression.
Super Super Sniper EFI.
Cam is tentatively a Lunati hyd roller [email protected], 611 lift, 110lsa.
Hooker Long Tube Headers.
4.11 Locker, Powerglide transmission with transbrake.
68 mustang coupe back halfed.

option 1)
I have a set of 4v heads that are epoxied intake and matched to a Roush hi port intake. Iíd also use MPG stinger exhaust plates.

Option 2)
I have a set of natural 302 Boss heads drilled for a cleveland.
They are matched to a nice Holley street dominator.

Option 3)
AFD/CHI/TFS Aluminum head with matching intake. Preferably a RPM airgap or dual plane equivalent.

What say you?
What would you do if you were trying to build a RELIABLE street motor in the 450+ hp range.
And is this a doable game plan?
Will this set up make 450?

Please advise.
I look forward to all opinions.
Come one, come all, unless you tell me to leave it stock.

Mike




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post #2 of 13 Old 04-11-2019, 07:42 PM
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You have covered most of the possible combinations available for a Cleveland head build. For budget I'd stick with the OEM heads if you have them already. If you have the block/crank/rods/pistons you mentioned, that should get into the 400hp+ range easily. But it might require more compression, rpm, or single plane intake to hit 500hp without bigger modifications.



For myself, I lean to a most reliable combination, modest rpm and EFI etc. That costs just as much but reduces power too. I'm aiming at a 351-358 CI size, so I can honestly call mine a 351 as my Ranchero came with. But I'll opt for CHI 3V heads, so I can specify Windsor end hole bolt patterns on one end, to run modern accessories. I'm debating between the 185cc and 208cc heads, and I want them to flow 300cfm, which they don't out of the box. I like their matching single plane intake for either a 8.2 or 9.5" block. I have a Cleveland block, but I'll use either a 302 or 351W block, to make the external parts easier. I'm not sure if the 351W CHI intake is worth using to have to fabricate on it, weld onto it the water outlet at the front.


Don
92 Mark VII LSC SE - soon OBDII and 4R70, GTC kit and 347, custom paint.
98 Explorer Limited project to add 4WD, XP8 parts, KB blower, paint, 337.
99 Limited mail vehicle, SOHC 4WD, later 306/4R70W swap. 1998 Mountaineer spare. 72 Ranchero 351 Clevor project.
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post #3 of 13 Old 04-13-2019, 10:56 AM
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I don't have a great deal of Cleveland expertise, but I have some thoughts on the direction I would go in your situation. I would definitely NOT use cast iron OEM heads due to their poor efficiency. I think something like the CHI 220 cc CNC port 3V heads would be ideal for this particular build. They flow a ton of air for their MCSA (minimum cross sectional area) which speaks to their efficiency. Having good velocity is nice for filling cylinders without using too much cam, helping torque across the power band, also throttle response, both desirable characteristics for a street cruiser.

I'd probably use their matching single plane intake, considering the engine displacement, gearing, and car weight I'd think you could sacrifice a bit of low end torque for stronger upper RPM power.

Jay
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post #4 of 13 Old 04-13-2019, 06:04 PM
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I built a 393 cid Cleveland for a 70' Pantera. We used Edelbrock heads, Edelbrock Air Gap dual plane intake manifold. 850 cfm Quick Fuel carb, custom headers to fit the Pantera chassis, Hyd roller cam from Comp. MSD ignition. That engine made 485 to the tire and was very streetable. Great manners. The torque curve was massive. Broad and flat. That car pulled like a MoFo. This was back in 2010 or so.

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post #5 of 13 Old 04-13-2019, 06:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saleen414 View Post
I built a 393 cid Cleveland for a 70' Pantera. We used Edelbrock heads, Edelbrock Air Gap dual plane intake manifold. 850 cfm Quick Fuel carb, custom headers to fit the Pantera chassis, Hyd roller cam from Comp. MSD ignition. That engine made 485 to the tire and was very streetable. Great manners. The torque curve was massive. Broad and flat. That car pulled like a MoFo. This was back in 2010 or so.


Interesting and promising!
Thanks for that feedback.



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post #6 of 13 Old 04-13-2019, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mikeyhunts View Post

option 1)
I have a set of 4v heads that are epoxied intake and matched to a Roush hi port intake. Iíd also use MPG stinger exhaust plates.

Option 2)
I have a set of natural 302 Boss heads drilled for a cleveland.
They are matched to a nice Holley street dominator.
OEM... these old 4V heads can make 600+hp no problem with right prep.


not sure about that powerglide... maybe scrap it and stay with C4-C6

!Grab em by the p*ssy!... !TRUMP 2017-2025! ...!make America Grab again!
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post #7 of 13 Old 04-14-2019, 11:26 AM
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For a stock reproduction effort I can see the allure of the OEM heads. However, in terms of performance, modern aluminum heads are superior in about every category possible. Lighter, dissipate heat better, better chamber shape, can typically run about a point higher compression ratio on the same fuel, more efficient/better flowing intake and exhaust runners (particularly on the exhaust side where the stock runners are terrible).

Of course anyone building an engine designed in the Stone Age isn't exactly embracing the most current technological advancements (myself included here), but I can't help thinking that the OEM heads are leaving a large amount of potential on the table. Just ask Jon Kaase what can be accomplished with modern Cleveland style heads.

If budget is tight, I could also see the logic in using what you've got, OP didn't seem overly concerned about it.

Jay
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post #8 of 13 Old 04-16-2019, 10:41 AM
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I would've thought this thread might generate some discussion? My bad.
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post #9 of 13 Old 04-16-2019, 11:21 AM Thread Starter
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I think itís all good feedback
Iím trying to talk myself into using the OEM stuff, but the performance side of me really wants to go with aluminum.

Iím afraid if I go OEM, Iíll always be second guessing.

My 4v heads have been ported and epoxied extensively.
And the intake is really geared more towards drag racing.
While I am shooting for the 450-500 mark, I was kind of hoping to go with an EDLEBROCK air gap.

I also do have this strip dominator as an option too.



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post #10 of 13 Old 04-16-2019, 11:29 AM Thread Starter
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post #11 of 13 Old 04-16-2019, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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post #12 of 13 Old 05-20-2019, 10:32 PM Thread Starter
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FORD vs CHI vs AFD vs TFS

The plot thickens.
Still waiting to hear back from machine shop about which head to use, but I did acquire a ford motor sports hi port intake.
Itís the original ďTorkerĒ style.
So...... at least I have some options.....


The pic that shows the ports are in different order.
The one at the top is the original 4v port Holley strip dominator.
The middle one is the high port SVO A351 spider, and the bottom lower one is the new A331 ďTorkerĒ.


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post #13 of 13 Old 05-21-2019, 03:04 PM
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I'll take the Torker, ... oh yeah that's the one I have already. Mine's the original Edelbrock though, that FMS intake looks much better.

Don
92 Mark VII LSC SE - soon OBDII and 4R70, GTC kit and 347, custom paint.
98 Explorer Limited project to add 4WD, XP8 parts, KB blower, paint, 337.
99 Limited mail vehicle, SOHC 4WD, later 306/4R70W swap. 1998 Mountaineer spare. 72 Ranchero 351 Clevor project.
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