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Moving from N/A 331 to Vortech. First supercharger

15K views 67 replies 22 participants last post by  Kool Rock Steady 
#1 ·
Current setup= 331. AFR 165 heads, systemax intake, comp stroker cam, DSS forged bottem end, stock block. Compression is somewhere around 10.3:1-10.5:1. 30LB injectors, in tank 340LPH pump, 70MM MAS. SCT Chip/dyno tune Tremec TKO 600. Made 388 to the wheels 3 years ago when put together.

I just picked up a used Vortech S trim. I'm thinking I will only be able to get away with like 4-5 pounds of boost...I wanna stay safe, not a track car. Looking for some input from people who know:

1. 60 pound injectors?
2. Do i need a new MAS...or can a tuner just work with my current one once I put bigger injectors in?
3. How do I calculate what pulleys I need? The kit was sold to me as "comes with upgraded 10 rib 10 pound pulleys setup"....I thought boost varied motor to motor based on components?
4. Can i keep this on 93 and be safe...or do i NEED a meth kit? (really dont want one).
5. Can anyone suggest a GOOD/EXPERT tuner near the New Orleans Louisiana area (within several hours) that wont blow my #### up tuning this? My previous tuner for this N/A-nitrous setup has a 56 month wait, and their lead guy i think is no longer there...don't trust the work I have been seeing coming out of there since.

6. Any knowledge anyone wanna drop on me being the first time ever dealing with boost? I am assuming I drop in bigger injectors, bolt the thing up once I determine pulleys...then drag it to a dyno....I missing something?

Thanks Guys.
 
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#2 ·
The psi rating on any pulley set up is a ball park/average. It will vary depending on engine efficiency. At 4-5 psi of boost you are only looking at 80-100 extra hp or so. And yes, you will need bigger fuel injectors. A boosted engine will always need bigger fuel injectors for a specific HP level compared to N/A. Most fuel injector calculators will give you an idea of size required for crank HP based on N/A or Boosted. A 450 N/A crank HP engine would require a 30 lb/hr injector for an 8 cyl engine. Add boost and the engine now needs a 36 lb/hr injector for the same crank HP. These numbers were assuming 85% duty cycle.
https://www.deatschwerks.com/fuel-calculators/fuel-injector-calculator
 
#3 ·
Thank you.

1. Yep..i knew I need bigger injectors, just looking for how to calculate whether it would be 60, 80, etc. So...looking like 60 is my sweet spot.
2. My boost level was a guess...un-educated....based on my compression, wanting to stay on 93 octane, and not wanting to push the ragged edge...maybe i am WAY off on that guess?
3. So I'm assuming vortech might be ablr to help me take a guess on the pulley size based on my setup? Do you basically just throw it on and see what it makes then change it from there? Seems like a very crude "trial and error" way to guess at it??

4. Most important part...ANYONE with info on a REPUTABLE/EXPERIENCED tuner I can go to...please pass info my way.
 
#4 ·
Boost level is not determined by compression ratio. Compression ratio will determine how much cylinder pressure you build. That cylinder pressure will obviously go up for every psi of boost made. Most psi ratings for pulley combo's are based on a stock engine. If the intake/heads/exhaust/camshaft allow for more efficient flow, then you will see less psi on the boost gauge because the boost is not getting stacked up in the head and intake manifold compared to stock. It is not that the engine is getting less air resulting in less boost pressure, it is that the engine is using more of the available air flow from the S/C compared to stock.
 
#7 ·
The point you're missing is that 80's can be easily adjusted/tuned to operate like stock injectors and the car will never know it. You may never need such large injectors but b/c these can be tuned to operate like stock they are used to eliminate the need for larger ones when people make more power later on in life.

I have 160's on mine (I need them) but it idles and drives like stock.


ks
 
#9 ·
Current setup= 331. AFR 165 heads, systemax intake, comp stroker cam, DSS forged bottem end, stock block. Compression is somewhere around 10.3:1-10.5:1. 30LB injectors, in tank 340LPH pump, 70MM MAS. SCT Chip/dyno tune Tremec TKO 600. Made 388 to the wheels 3 years ago when put together.

I just picked up a used Vortech S trim. I'm thinking I will only be able to get away with like 4-5 pounds of boost...I wanna stay safe, not a track car. Looking for some input from people who know:

1. 60 pound injectors? Siemens Deka 80's (easy to tune on a 302/331)


2. Do i need a new MAS...or can a tuner just work with my current one once I put bigger injectors in?
You'll likely need a bigger maf as your probably close to pegging what you have I would imagine.
3. How do I calculate what pulleys I need? The kit was sold to me as "comes with upgraded 10 rib 10 pound pulleys setup"....I thought boost varied motor to motor based on components? The only thing you can calculate off of the crank and blower pulley diameters is the impeller rpm. Actual PSI observed is a live testing thing.

4. Can i keep this on 93 and be safe...or do i NEED a meth kit? (really dont want one). With 5-6 pounds you won't NEED meth, however I doubt you'll stay at that boost level for long and therefore Meth would be smart.
5. Can anyone suggest a GOOD/EXPERT tuner near the New Orleans Louisiana area (within several hours) that wont blow my #### up tuning this? My previous tuner for this N/A-nitrous setup has a 56 month wait, and their lead guy i think is no longer there...don't trust the work I have been seeing coming out of there since. Decipha at EFIdynotuning is in New Orleans and I've heard nothing but good things.

6. Any knowledge anyone wanna drop on me being the first time ever dealing with boost? I am assuming I drop in bigger injectors, bolt the thing up once I determine pulleys...then drag it to a dyno....I missing something? Since your not tuning yourself, that pretty much sums it up. You've got the fuel covered with the 340 pump, you'll want to consider going one step colder plugs and tighten gap slightly.

Thanks Guys.
thanks
 
#12 ·
Follow up questions if I can.

I am waiting on a call back from EFIdynotuning. But I was also told about JMS performance. I had a phone consult with them and this is basically what i was told:

1. Go 60lb injectors. You can go 80 if they are the same price, but harder to tune for streetability
2. get a Pro-M meter for blown applications, calibrated for the injector size you buy, and get the optional "30 point calibration sheet"
3. "the fuel lines in foxbody are small. you need to upgrade the fuel rails, and even with he 340 in tank pump..we suggest adding a 340 in-line pump on top of that" what???? really??
4. 8 PSI is probably your max without meth, E85. expect 500+ to the wheels and you are in block destruction territory and would need to be very careful of getting "bad gas" at a gas station...carry a can of octane boost around.

Thoughts on this conversation?
 
#13 ·
Decide on a tuner and follow their suggestions for maf and injectors.
I would expect a single 340L in tank pump to be enough as long as it has upgraded wiring to it.
You are in that area where lines and rails might need to be replaced although I would think you would be fine with the stock stuff.
There is no magic number for the stock block. Some last with 500+ rwhp some crack with much less. High rpms and poor tunes are bad for the stock block
 
#14 ·
Yep..the block stuff I pretty much knew. It's like flipping a coin. I'll probably upgrade the fuel rails to be safe...but I feel like a second pump is just overkill. What do you mean upgraded wiring? It is an aeromotive in-tank that was designed to install just like the factory pump.

The injectors and Meter I'll go with what they tell me to do.

So it all boils down to these Fuel supply questions at this point then. Everything I am ready shows/says this pump should be fine as is??

Oh...opinions on used vs new injectors? Sounds like the meter I NEED to get brand new cause I need it calibrated right and to get that sheet from them.
 
#63 ·
you will be fine with 80 injectors i tune a foxbody with 80s with a pms with si trim blower works and runs like stock thu a pms and i also tune my 94 cobra with 95# injectors with pms with stock engine, and ysi blower runs like stock https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylLaoaebj0Q
YSI and cobra intake? Man, you are hurting flow brother! I did same thing but not a YSI
 
#16 ·
Well...the second you said E85 everything changes.

340...would MAYBE get there on pump gas, i have a similar build, going E85, I'm going with a 525 hellcat pump, then i can use BAP if i need more headroom.

They just don't want you to show up, and have to cut your tune short because not enough fuel.
 
#18 ·
60lb injectors are plenty for your set up but new or used injectors I would have them flowed the extra $80-$100 well worth the cost.
Your stock wiring for the fuel pump will work with a 340 in tank pump no problem and don't need an inline pump with a 340 in tank pump.
Stock fuel lines and rails will work with 93 octane 60lb injectors and 340 pump with 4-5 lbs of boost.
A mass air meter calibrated to 42lb or up up to 60lb will work but any calibration will need to be tuned with big injectors. I would suggest towing the car to be tuned after bigger injectors are installed don't try to drive without tuning.
Change to 2 steps colder than stock spark plugs and gap them to .028
Trying to get to 4-5lbs of boost with a vortech v-1/v-2 will require a 3.8" to 4" upper pulley and a 6.87" lower pulley and that also depends on the rpm of the engine but usually an efi sbf street car power falls off around 6000 rpm.
Don't need a water methanol kit
 
#19 ·
Pretty spot on here. Very similar to an old set up of mine. But, IMO, buy Brand new Siemens Deka or Holley 60’s. You’re also not going to stay at 4-5 lbs of boost. Not gonna happen. Maybe think about bigger fuel lines and rails so you’re ready for more boost.
 
#20 ·
Go to efidynotuning. Mike will set you up well. You can go to there web page and read everything he suggest and why.

The maf cal'd for any inj. is B.S. Buy a maf based on your hp goals. They will send you a 30 point maf curve. Your tuner will need this info. You will need a fuel reg. that is 1 to 1.
 
#23 ·
I tried contacting them and have been having trouble reaching anyone.

I'm currently working with my original tuner....JMS....but efidynotuning is much closer to me. I just wasnt familiar with them, but you are the second person to suggest them.
 
#27 ·
I am running Siemens-Deka 80s on a very mild NA setup, stock 302 displacement. Basically H/C/I and better exhaust. I am even tuning it myself (A9P with Decipha's A9L2 tune as a base) and the SD 80s are not an issue at all. Now, as I upgrade and go S/C in the near future, I don't need to worry about injectors.
It runs well with them at idle and cruise and gives you enough overhead to tweak injector timing if that is something you want to do (help eliminate the fuel smell at idle with larger overlap cams).
But make sure you get authentic Siemens-Deka, there are fakes out there that could give you issues.

.
 
#29 ·
Mike (decipha) is apparently 1 hour away from me and I never heard of him before lol. I've already linked up with him and am buying injectors and a mass air from him and letting him tune. He did suggest a Ford Lightning mass air to me to save money over the pro-m, which I have never heard of doing, but from I am seeing the man knows his stuff so I'm gonna roll with it.

I am so glad you mentioned the fuel smell!!! mine is N/A until I make this swap but from day one i have ALWAYS had a very rough fuel smell at idle...it sticks to my clothes lol...and the tune is set pretty lean at idle which my A/F guage verifies. I'll have to ask Mike about this when I get the setup over to him.
 
#36 ·
You have to think about the load on the pump. If it is just idling with no load, current draw is minimal. Put that pump under load and watch the current draw go way up. That is why you have to know the pump draw and wire rating.
 
#39 ·
I understand that. But Aeromotive says in the manual this is a drop in replacement...I would think they would mention it if the pump draws too much load for the existing wiring.

This is a dead point anyway, Aeromotive...LMR...and my dyno shop have all confirmed they run these pumps all the time without doing any wiring change and have no issues. I think I have checked about as well as I can with people who know more than me at this point.
 
#37 ·
darwin

install away.....

you can install as many appliances to a circuit in your house, all drop in nicely

imagine having no fuse protection for the wire

sure.....all the appliances will run until all the wire catch fire and melt away.
 
#43 ·
Okay guys...I get what you are saying..but I'm sort of done on that topic.

1. This pump has been in the car for 6 years. It has fueled it to over 500RWHP on Nitrous already. I am simply swapping power adders, not adding a new pump.
2. Wire capacity does not degrade over time. The Relay was installed brand new when I was building the car. Aeromotive says the fuse is fine cause the draw is no more than factory
3. 2 different Performance shops and dyno's now are telling me run it...they install these all the time and apparently have no issue...similar to me having no issue for SIX YEARS now.
4. Parts DO break...but after 6 years if something goes out I suspect it will simply be because it happens, not because it took 6 years for a mistake to finally show its head.

Thanks for the input...I have digested it and done what I feel is enough to cover the topic. Now...to move forward:

1. I am almost done acquiring the rest of my parts.
2. I might be looking to swap someone if anyone is looking for a 2.75 - 10 rib pulley. Vortech is telling me I should probably go with a 3.33
3. Air to Air aftercooler? Worth it for under 10 PSI?
 
#44 ·
assume away.......

not a single current measurement.........

if someone else says its fine, go with that, i am sure you will get the tail light warranty.

you still havent listened to the point.............what happens to current when you increase the pressure demand POW!

nitrous and forced induction are different FYI
 
#45 ·
Factory copper wire will eventually oxidize, turning the wire green and black and will become brittle. This causes more resistance and more heat. Heat can melt the factory shielding before the fuse pops. In addition, factory connectors and/or joints can corrode over time and break, especially with more power... which usually means lots of vibrations and hard launches. It can also add further resistance points to the circuit.

The factory wiring may certainly handle the load from the new pump. But throw in some 25+ year old factory wiring that may be bad in certain areas, you could end up with problems. For that reason any foxbody fuel pump i do always gets new 10awg wire or 8awg for bigger setups. New relay as well. The last 93 i cut into, the factory wiring for the fuel pump relay (under the driver-side carpet) was completely oxidized and pretty brittle. Same under the car at the fuel tank connector.

But with that being said, If the wiring is still good you probably wont have an issue. The factory wire gauge is within spec to handle the load of that pump.

Its more of a - what do i feel comfortable doing - question...
 
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