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Old 06-30-2003, 10:40 PM   #1
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P1SC ran outta boost?? WTF?!?!?!

I'm confused here; hopefully someone can set me straight.

After forging my 4.6 and getting a proper chip in we dyno'd my car today. I used to pull 12-psi, then added BBK LTs and the off-road pipe. The boost went down to 10-psi.

Now after the forged motor, ported heads, and ported Bullitt intake the boost dropped to only 6-psi.

I actually LOST power from my last dynos. BEFORE the LTs and pipe I dyno'd 392 RWHP. With the LTs and pipe I eeked up to 399 RWHP, but then realized that 3 cylinders lost compression.

Now that everything is forged and correct I'm only at 388 RWHP.

My mechanic tells me that the P1SC has "run out of boost" and can't ramp up with the motor.

Is this true? If so, what can be done about it?? I'm not thrilled to shell out another $1200 to ATI for an impeller upgrade.

Any ideas, comments, questions, etc??

I'm lost here....


P.S. I'm NOT using the Univer MAF that's listed in my sig. Apparently JMS can't get it tuned without actually having the car in their shop due to the voltage changes...
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Old 06-30-2003, 10:47 PM   #2
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You need a new mechanic...
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Old 06-30-2003, 11:32 PM   #3
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Re: P1SC ran outta boost?? WTF?!?!?!

Quote:
Originally posted by tommy303

Now after the forged motor, ported heads, and ported Bullitt intake the boost dropped to only 6-psi.
You are going to loose boost since you ported your heads and intake because it now moves more air and is more efficient.

Quote:
Originally posted by tommy303

I actually LOST power from my last dynos. BEFORE the LTs and pipe I dyno'd 392 RWHP. With the LTs and pipe I eeked up to 399 RWHP, but then realized that 3 cylinders lost compression.
You might want to check your math again. 399hp is more than the 392 you had before the LT's. If you lost compression in 3 cylinders that would mean that you have more problems than your boost problem.

As stated above me, you need a new mechanic. He is an idiot if he thinks you maxed out your blower when it can reach boost levels of up to 30 pounds.
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Old 06-30-2003, 11:58 PM   #4
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My math is fine, maybe I wasn't clear.

Base P1SC+10 lb pulley, 392 RWHP.

P1SC+LTs+pipe+12 lb pulley, 399 RWHP.

Forged motor+P1SC+LTs+pipe+12 lb pulley, 388 RWHP.

When I dyno'd 399 I thought something was wrong. I've read that LT's and an off-road pipe were worth more than 7 RWHP. That's when we discovered the 3 bad cylinders. I decided to forge the motor instead of just re-ringing it. I figured that the stock block wasn't going to go much further than 450 RWHP anyway; and I wanted somewhere in the 500 RWHP range.

About the P1SC reaching 30 psi: If it's only spinning to 6 now, it's due to the engine being more efficient, right?

So, how do I get more boost out of it without overspinning the blower? I've already got the 12-psi pulley on it, won't I risk breaking the blower if I change to an even smaller pulley??
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Old 07-01-2003, 01:22 AM   #5
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i thought ati made a 17lb pulley for the p1sc?
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Old 07-01-2003, 01:25 AM   #6
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I can't find any info about larger pulleys on ATI's website. I thought I read somewhere that the smallest is a 12-psi pulley.
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Old 07-01-2003, 06:24 AM   #7
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The largest amount of boost loss you will see is about 2#'s, unless you increase you displacement a large amount. That little 4.6 isnt going to put any strain on that P1SC.
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:07 PM   #8
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call Reichard RAcing. he just made me a 14# pulley for my P1SC
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:22 PM   #9
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Boost is just a way of measuring backpressure.
You should have more power now since your engine breathes easyier.
Even if boost pressure went down, you have more air volume entering the motor, and it should make more power.
But if you have a restriction before the blower, or if the belt isnt tight enough, then what i said before doesnt apply.
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Old 07-01-2003, 12:44 PM   #10
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Theres no way in hell he lost 6#'s of boost from his bolt ons and porting. Maybe if he increase his displacement to 7.0 liters, he could lose a few pounds.
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Old 07-01-2003, 01:11 PM   #11
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You can get a smaller blower pulley that will make that blower produce more boost!!

What size do you have on there now? Take note of it, and start making some calls (start with Procharger, then maybe Auto Specialties who make custom pullies, I read above about Richard Racing) and find a smaller pulley. A 14psi pulley is not the smallest they make for those blowers and even if it was, you would be able to get a smaller one made!
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Old 07-01-2003, 01:33 PM   #12
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The only thing that I'm concerned with by using a smaller pulley is over-spinning the blower and damaging it. The thing that really hurts is that I spent about $10k rebuilding the motor and getting the heads and intake, all the porting, etc.

Over at Stangnet one of the guys gave me a formula for determining what rpms the blower is spinning at:

Crank/blower*engine RPM*blower gear ratio=impeller RPM

If I went with the 8" crank pulley from ASP and kept the 3.10" blower pulley I'd overspin the blower at 6000 rpms.

8/3.1*6000*4.10=63483.9 RPM <---That's what's making me so nervous.

A question about the slippage: The belt was new, and my mechanic said that the blower was slowly building boost all the way to redline. He said that it was a continual buildup and that there wasn't any spiking; or it didn't ramp up suddenly then taper off.

Would the altitude make a difference? Being in Colorado I'm at 5300'.

Thanx again for all of the replies. I'm still trying to learn about all of this and you guys are helping out tremendously.
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Old 07-01-2003, 03:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by tommy303
my mechanic said that the blower was slowly building boost all the way to redline. He said that it was a continual buildup and that there wasn't any spiking; or it didn't ramp up suddenly then taper off.
WELL, it is a centrifugal supercharger. boost is basically directly related to crank speed since the blower is hooked to the crankshaft. it isn't going to have the boost curve of a turbo or positive displacement blower where it makes full boost and holds there for 3K+ more rpm. what'd you expect the curve to be like? you're boost is relevant to rpm, you may have 4#'s at 4,000rpm, 6#'s at 5,000rpm, 8#'s at 6,000rpm, etc (this is a bit of an oversimplified example).

Quote:
Originally posted by tommy303
Would the altitude make a difference? Being in Colorado I'm at 5300'.
the problem is that you made the old boost numbers at that altitude, correct? it's not like you made something at sea level, did the new mods, and then moved to somewhere w/ 5300' of elevation and THAT'S why you're numbers changed. as far as i know that isn't the case b/c you haven't said anything about just moving there so i would say that is irrelevant b/c we're trying to diagnose a problem related to your old boost numbers at that same altitude.
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Old 07-01-2003, 03:35 PM   #14
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Okay, so how would I know if the belt is slipping?

I was wondering if the low boost numbers were due to the altitude. When I changed to a 12-psi pulley and the LT's/pipe I was still at only 10 psi.

It's kind of disturbing that I'm down to 6 psi now.

Could there be something wrong with the blower itself??
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Old 07-01-2003, 08:28 PM   #15
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You are running a 8" crank and a 3.1" blower pulley and only seeing 6#s of boost ?

Only 3 things are kepping boost down.
1) major belt slippage

2) Some how your inlet side of the blower is restricted..

3) your blower tubing connections are loose somewhere and you bleeding it off !!!

Dont even concider the mod factor, they might make you loose like a pound if that.. Im not familiar with the 99 set up, can you adjust the belt tention ? Check for belt dust around parts near the blower !!

Im running a 6.5 crank and a 3.05 blower pulley seeing around 10-11 psi @ 6100...
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Old 07-01-2003, 10:53 PM   #16
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SOunds like you need a rr pulley to prevent slip.With all my motor mods.Cams,P&P heads,built motor .Im still seeing 10 psi with a 3.33 pulley @ 6k. Most other cars see 12 psi with the same pulley.I only lost 2 psi with all the air flow mods.

But i have seen few ati guys having the same complaint as you .More motor mods and less power and boost.
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Old 07-02-2003, 10:21 PM   #17
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you would have to do some serious modifications to make an 8 inch crank pully fit your car....did you call ASP and find out if they made overdrive crank pullies and how much did they want for them..
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:09 AM   #18
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Thumbs up

I've talked to ATI about this. They told me if I was going w/ a procharger on a stock motor (2001 Cobra) to go w/ the P1SC, if I was going to do intake/head porting etc to go w/ the D1SC b/c I would lose boost w/ the P1SC. Give them a call. They were very helpful when I gave them a jingle.
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:46 AM   #19
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To correct something, I'm using the stock crank pulley with a 3.1" pulley. After reading some of the posts above I was considering going to a larger crank pulley.

However it seems that I'll overspin the P1SC if I do---especially if I go with a smaller custom blower pulley.

I also spoke with ATI a bit. As soon as I can I'll be sending my P1SC back to them to be upgraded to a D1SC.

Hopefully THEN I'll see some decent power.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:22 PM   #20
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None of this makes sense.

Regardless of a little belt slippage and porting etc. You should make more than 6 psi, and you should definitely make more than 388rwhp.

I would check for belt dust from slippage. I also agree you should check for leaks and restrictions on the intake.

I know that most every Procharged/intercooled 99+ GT including my old 02 made over 400rwhp.

My P1SC on my Cobra makes 13 psi at redline with a 3.2 inch pulley. I know your heads, ported or not, couldnt exceed the flow of my cobra heads by that much.

Before you shell out the dough for the upgrade, check you intake and tubing.
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Old 04-17-2004, 05:37 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by swinerton
Theres no way in hell he lost 6#'s of boost from his bolt ons and porting. Maybe if he increase his displacement to 7.0 liters, he could lose a few pounds.
I agree! Throwing a smaller pulley on that blower is not going to fix the proble that is causing your boost problem. You need to track down the problem first. Make sure ALL of your tubes are tight and fit together properly, make sure your B.O.V. is not leaking or the diaphram is not torn. Make sure you don't have a serious vaacum leak. You can do that by spraying WD-40 around the intake gaskets and listen for idle fluctuations. Make sure the blower is not puking it's guts into the intake path (oil leaks). and lastly, check for major belt slipping. 6 psi is a rediculous bleed off and you should not be loosing that much with a 4.6. Not at all.
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Old 04-17-2004, 07:54 PM   #22
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sounds like the BOV is where your losing your boost
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Old 04-17-2004, 08:43 PM   #23
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Dam talk about bring back a dead thread.
Almost a year old LOL.
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Old 04-18-2004, 02:37 AM   #24
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problems

Read what these people are telling you. You do head porting etc.. you are going to loose some boost. Boost is just the measurement of restriction to flow. Number 2 get rid of your shade tree mechanic, he sucks! Oh and get rid of JMS, they are the worst, and absolutely SUCK at tuning! HORRIBE!!!! They could not get the tune on one of my customers Saleen right at all. WE ended up giving the chip back did I mention THEY SUCK?
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:26 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by white99gt
Dam talk about bring back a dead thread.
Almost a year old LOL.
I didn't even notice that wooops, soooooooo what was it....
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:49 AM   #26
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Re: problems

Quote:
Originally posted by GS400
Read what these people are telling you. You do head porting etc.. you are going to loose some boost. Boost is just the measurement of restriction to flow. Number 2 get rid of your shade tree mechanic, he sucks! Oh and get rid of JMS, they are the worst, and absolutely SUCK at tuning! HORRIBE!!!! They could not get the tune on one of my customers Saleen right at all. WE ended up giving the chip back did I mention THEY SUCK?
Yea JMS sucks .They are one of the top tuners out there.But chris johnson is now with sct.So im unsure who is doing there mail order stuff.
But every tuner has problems tuning via mailorder.
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Old 04-18-2004, 03:51 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by white99gt
Dam talk about bring back a dead thread.
Almost a year old LOL.

Ooops, I hate it when I do that. I did a search and then responded to it. lol.

CJ is with SCT but he still owns JMS. I am not sure however who is doing there tuning now.

I hate posts like thsi where the DA doesnt come back and tell us what he figured out. That usually means he forgot to install something right or whatever and is embarassed.
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Old 04-18-2004, 07:49 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by svtcobrastang98
I've talked to ATI about this. They told me if I was going w/ a procharger on a stock motor (2001 Cobra) to go w/ the P1SC, if I was going to do intake/head porting etc to go w/ the D1SC b/c I would lose boost w/ the P1SC. Give them a call. They were very helpful when I gave them a jingle.
I second this. My P1SC 'ran out of boost' as well, soon as I opened everything up (restriction wise). Its a good blower, but the D1SC is SOooooooooo much better

peace
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03 Cobra Silver Vert
-----VENOM-S-----

SCT tune by Mike Dez Racing 586.19rwhp/565.18rwtq

Whipple 2.3 - 3" upper, stock lower
KB BAP
Billetflow 100mm idler
Stainless Works LT headers with Cats and 3" Catback
JLT Big Air CAI
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Old 04-18-2004, 08:27 PM   #29
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JMS

Yeah okay, whatever about JMS. I guess they must send a batch of crappy chips up to Wisconsin cause everyone I have spoken with about JMS and mail order chips through them say they are horrible. I drove the Saleen first hand and it had 10 times worse driveability then even the stock Saleen Powerflashed PCM! Maybe you have to talk HEE HAW in order to get a decent chip burned from them I do not know. Sorry, experience with 4 people with their mail order chips, and all flops! 100% suck ass in my books.
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Old 04-18-2004, 11:02 PM   #30
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JMS

Alright everyone, I apologize. Maybe I came down too hard on JMS. I only know them from their mailorder chips. I am sure if you go to them or are able to make it to their dyno then they do a fabulous job on a tune. It just made me mad that a customer of mine had sooo much trouble with the chip having to send it back and giving them dyno data, and they still could not get the tune right. Blaming the poor run on the Pro-M Univer MAF. Maybe they can do a great job on their dyno, but just from my experience with their mail order stuff has been less than par. It made me mad that another gentleman was having probs with his tune and blower and to hear JMS being a part of it set me off. I apologize everyone! Sorry for being so rash.
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Old 04-19-2004, 12:39 AM   #31
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I read a little more that 1/2 of the thread so far. WOndering what cam you are using with the new mods? maybe you have too much overlap with the cam, thus, blowing out the boost? Just a thought. If you suspect the chip, get that thing on a dyno and a wide band O2....and watch the timming curve too!
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