Suggestions for Meth failsafe on OBD1/Supercharged car - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Suggestions for Meth failsafe on OBD1/Supercharged car

So I have been running a Devil's own basic kit for over a year now, with no problems. I opted to not get a controller and use a HOBS switch to keep it simple and not add something else to the mix that could cause problems.
I have read lots of people complaining of various controller issues keeping their systems from working, or worse off, keeping the system activated and spraying or dripping in the motor when it should not be activated, so that deterred me .

I am at a point now that I would like to take the methanol thing a little more seriously and figure out a fail safe in some fashion that tells me more than just does the pump have power. Furthermore, my car is OBD1, stock ignition, supercharged and tuned on an SCT4bank chip. So even if I find something that will pull signal from something if the pump went dead, or clog in line or whatever, how could I make it pull boost or timing? With turbocharged cars and obd2 and aftermarket ignitions this is all much easier I assume. lol

Any suggestions that you guys have found works safely that you trust your engine with incase of some sort of anomoly that causes the system to not spray when leaning on it hard?


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post #2 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 03:48 PM
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Could use your IAT sensor to add and retard timing.
Where is yours located? Mines still in the lower intake so it does get heat soaked, something to think about.


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post #3 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo93fox View Post
Could use your IAT sensor to add and retard timing.
Where is yours located? Mines still in the lower intake so it does get heat soaked, something to think about.
Mine is on the discharge tube currently. (94-95 car) .The tune is set to pull timing if the IAT shoots up right now, but not sure I want that to be my only fail safe and not sure how quick that happens incase of failure.
Also I would like a visual that it is not working. I would have no way of knowing its pulling timing due to heat other than the buttometer which is not all that accurate all the time.

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post #4 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 04:01 PM
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Uhmm, maybe a low pressure switch to a indicator light could work and have it only powered when your pump would be powered.

93 Stock short block,on3 turbo 11psi
Gt40 heads, Almighty B cam, Typhoon intake.
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post #5 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 04:24 PM
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your only option is a flow switch

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #6 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 04:35 PM
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Are you concerned if the engine runs lean due to pump or ? failure? I use a Lean Protection Module from MD Racing that monitors for a lean condition then shuts down the ignition. I have his Dual Wideband kit on my car. This not only works if my meth goes lean but also a fuel pump, injector, etc..

MD Racing

I also went farther and installed a Safeguard Knock Detector that pulls timing if it hears knock.
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/

When running pump gas and meth injection I feel these two items are mandatory.

ks
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post #7 of 23 Old 03-16-2017, 09:48 PM
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i have one of these new in the box unopened that i can make you a good deal on...

https://www.snowperformance.net/Snow...it-p/30020.htm

when i finally installed my meth kit my computer has built in meth control / safety measures so i don't need it

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post #8 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 08:55 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KEVIN$ View Post
Are you concerned if the engine runs lean due to pump or ? failure? I use a Lean Protection Module from MD Racing that monitors for a lean condition then shuts down the ignition. I have his Dual Wideband kit on my car. This not only works if my meth goes lean but also a fuel pump, injector, etc..

MD Racing

I also went farther and installed a Safeguard Knock Detector that pulls timing if it hears knock.
J&S Electronics SafeGuard Indivdual Cylinder Knock Control

When running pump gas and meth injection I feel these two items are mandatory.

ks
I don't think I am as much concerned with leanness as I am with timing to be honest. I dont think my car has a ton of enrichment with the meth, but it did restore quite a bit of timing. I just think it would be a wise idea to add something more than the IAT safety net. I have heard of the J and S I believe from back in the day with nitrous stuff. I will check the other thing you mentioned. Both can be very useful though. I appreciate the advise

Quote:
Originally Posted by modo View Post
i have one of these new in the box unopened that i can make you a good deal on...

https://www.snowperformance.net/Snow...it-p/30020.htm

when i finally installed my meth kit my computer has built in meth control / safety measures so i don't need it
not sure this will fit the bill. These are one of the units I have heard the most issues with to be honest. How much though?

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post #9 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
your only option is a flow switch
I have only ever found one from Aquamist and I dont think they sell seperate. I talked to Coolingmist yesterday and he said they have downsides too and stopped using them.
Do you personally run meth that you can provide personal experience on?

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post #10 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by PM-Performance View Post
I have only ever found one from Aquamist and I dont think they sell seperate. I talked to Coolingmist yesterday and he said they have downsides too and stopped using them.
Do you personally run meth that you can provide personal experience on?
I don't run meth

But I use flow switches all the time in what I do.

I say flow switch is the only way, but I would use a current relay, but that might not on people's radar.

Anyhow, what the task is here, to verify flow, no flow = no meth=no aggressive engine.......this is the easiest and most reliable

Let me google some flow switches for ya, and will update you.


89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #11 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 10:04 AM
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Shuttle / Piston | Dwyer Instruments

Thermal Dispersion Flow Switch|FS-600 No-Moving-Parts Flow Switch | Gems

Piston Type Alloy Flow Switches

Piston Type Plastic Flow Switches

a start

select flow rate, and port size, and material

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #12 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
I don't run meth

But I use flow switches all the time in what I do.

I say flow switch is the only way, but I would use a current relay, but that might not on people's radar.

Anyhow, what the task is here, to verify flow, no flow = no meth=no aggressive engine.......this is the easiest and most reliable

Let me google some flow switches for ya, and will update you.
thanks, I will check the links out you posted. I know when I asked the Coolingmist guy yesterday how his triggers electronically that he said it works better than a flow sensor and sounds like it is current/resistance based that triggers the events to the box to then trigger the ground point to shut whatever off. Now from there I need to determine what I want it to shut off or cut.

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post #13 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 11:06 AM
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It seems the SCT has the ability to switch tunes on the fly

you could use that feature, maybe?

89 GT gr-40, KB2200(10psi), tweecer R/T,LC-1, 22gal cell, w/tailpipes.
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post #14 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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It seems the SCT has the ability to switch tunes on the fly

you could use that feature, maybe?
that actually brings an interesting point. I can switch maps to my non meth maps with my switch. I may need to get creative with how to do that, however not sure how fast that will be opposed to having my IAT sensor currently as my failsafe.

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post #15 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 11:44 AM
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well then

I don't know its circuit design, but I am sure the sct must have a programmable input....

otherwise, you could use the IAT-flow switch in parallel as the input, and having the flow switch short the IAT, causing the sct to see the IAT at its max temp

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post #16 of 23 Old 03-17-2017, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PM-Performance View Post
I don't think I am as much concerned with leanness as I am with timing to be honest. I dont think my car has a ton of enrichment with the meth, but it did restore quite a bit of timing. I just think it would be a wise idea to add something more than the IAT safety net. I have heard of the J and S I believe from back in the day with nitrous stuff. I will check the other thing you mentioned. Both can be very useful though. I appreciate the advise



not sure this will fit the bill. These are one of the units I have heard the most issues with to be honest. How much though?
100 bucks its yours

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post #17 of 23 Old 03-18-2017, 11:18 AM
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WOW, you are making this way to complicated. You need something that will measure fluid flow.........period.

Never heard of any issues with Safe Injection unless the installation instructions weren't followed or typical owner error. Snow Performance's competitors will never agree on what's best unless it's something they sell. There's a reason why Snow Performance out sells all other water/methanol companies combined it's because they continually do the R&D on their product line while the others do not. They all play follow the leader and the leader is Snow Performance......period.

I've been running water/methanol injection probably longer than most. I do use a progressive controller along with Safe Injection and have NEVER had an issue. Personally, I don't care what you use or run but if you can install Safe Injection onto your setup I would. It's simple to install, easy to use and it works.

Good luck
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94 Mustang Saleen aka Carbon Copy
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post #18 of 23 Old 03-19-2017, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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WOW, you are making this way to complicated. You need something that will measure fluid flow.........period.

Never heard of any issues with Safe Injection unless the installation instructions weren't followed or typical owner error. Snow Performance's competitors will never agree on what's best unless it's something they sell. There's a reason why Snow Performance out sells all other water/methanol companies combined it's because they continually do the R&D on their product line while the others do not. They all play follow the leader and the leader is Snow Performance......period.

I've been running water/methanol injection probably longer than most. I do use a progressive controller along with Safe Injection and have NEVER had an issue. Personally, I don't care what you use or run but if you can install Safe Injection onto your setup I would. It's simple to install, easy to use and it works.

Good luck
Michael Plummer
@Michael Plummer,
I did not realize the snow kit used a flow sensor like that. I haven't looked all that deep into them as I read issues with a bunch of progressive controllers and theirs was top of the list if I recall of issues.
So if I did theirs, I would need the solenoid also to cut boost correct? Would you suggest that as a better way to do this since my iat should already cut timing in the maps?
Can I do everything for the box that I need to do? Or is the progressive controller worth the added abilities? I guess I would need that also to get rid of he Hons switch I have?

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post #19 of 23 Old 03-19-2017, 10:35 AM Thread Starter
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Actually, maybe it was the progressive controllers I was thinking about with the reliability issues. I think I was confusing them with fsilsafes thinking they were a single unit

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post #20 of 23 Old 03-19-2017, 10:56 AM
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Actually, maybe it was the progressive controllers I was thinking about with the reliability issues. I think I was confusing them with fsilsafes thinking they were a single unit
A looong time ago, the Snow Performance controllers were designed by Dan Labonte. Those controllers had issues and Snow Performance did a recall on all of those units (An industry first for an aftermarket part). The current stage 2 controllers from Snow Performance are better in terms of repeatability but they are not as good as the Snow Performance Stage 3 controller. Does it mean the Stage 2 controller are junk? No, they are fine to use and I would use one if I didn't have the Stage 3 controller. As far as the competition's progressive controllers are concern, I haven't tested one in a while but they look to be the same units from back in the day. So you can always do your own testing on a test bench if you have one. When testing a controller you have to decide what's best for you, accuracy or repeatability. The Stage 3 controller from Snow Performance had a high degree of accuracy and repeatability over the others but that was testing that was done over 4 or 5 years ago.

One thing I noticed, people always have the money to do it right the SECOND time.

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post #21 of 23 Old 03-19-2017, 11:11 AM
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Q) So if I did theirs, I would need the solenoid also to cut boost correct?
A) Which supercharger do you have? If it's positive displacement blower lkie a Kenne-bell then you will need the boost solenoid to reduce boost. If you have a Vortech, ProCharger, etc. setup then you can use your ignition box (BTM) providing it has the capability of reducing timing. Then you can reduce total timing. I hope that makes sense.

Q) Would you suggest that as a better way to do this since my iat should already cut timing in the maps?
A) IATs don't react fast enough when compared to fluid flow. Using IATs only became an option when those companies that didn't provide a Failsafe like Safe Injection decide to use IATs as their way of doing things. Now the OEM uses IAT temps to reduce timing but those setups aren't very aggressive. In the end, measuring fluid flow is ideal because it's reaction time can be adjusted on the Safe Injection controller.

Q) Can I do everything for the box that I need to do? Or is the progressive controller worth the added abilities? I guess I would need that also to get rid of he Hons switch I have?
A) Hobbs switch setups are better suited for drag cars. A progressive controller will be easier to tune especially when you start to inject larger amounts of water/methanol.

I am no longer a distributor from Snow Performance (to busy) but I believe you need a progressive controller in order to use Safe Injection. If that's the case I would purchase a controller from a reputable vendor like Snow Performance or Mike Post. Then I would buy Modo's Safe Injection for short money. I'll also check my box of parts, I may have something laying around and it would still carry all the warranties if it was purchased from an Authorized vendor.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer

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post #22 of 23 Old 03-19-2017, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
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@Michael Plummer,
I am using a vortech. I am still using stock ignition. I felt no benefit to using the btm so I sold it instead of using it.
From the sounds of snow's site I would need the boost solenoid with the safe injection to work. The progressive I do not think is mandatory. Really the hobs works fine for me. Not sure what to gain really. Full spray is sufficient for me I guess currently with my setup. I would probably like a progressive later if I add another nozzle or something. Right now I just want that safety net
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-20-2017, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for all the info guys!
I'm gonna grab the snow safe injection from modo and grab a boost solenoid and run that for now and add a controller/gauge combo later.
This will make me feel a little safer though
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