Dyno #s Dart 347 Big bore N/A w/ Hogan and Systemax, Vortech Ti and Snow Meth - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
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post #1 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 12:52 AM Thread Starter
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Updated 709 RWHP Dyno #s Dart 347 Big bore N/A w/ Hogan and Systemax, Vortech Ti and Snow Meth

Finally finishing up my third project car. One to go.

4 Foxbody Builds at Once!

Just dyno'd with the Vortech Ti yesterday. It's a fairly mild build for daily driving with goals of 600rwhp, no bucking, quiet, ice cold AC, heat etc.

First video is N/A tuning and deciding between a Hogan Box or a Systemax upper.

Details of combo are in the video so no need to relist here.


Running the numbers I went with the Hogan Box for supercharging.

Results:
N/A box intake 320 rwhp / 340 rwtq
First pull 16lbs w/ timing waaay down and fuel rich 398/397
16lbs tuned fuel and timing 517/459
16lbs w/ meth, changed timing only 611/531

I initially took my N/A timing curve and calculated timing based on
1 deg/lb below 4k
1.25 deg/lb below 5k
1.4deg/lb above 5k.

Then did a global -4 deg at WOT for the initial pull just to be safe.

From there, dialed in fuel to stay between 12.5 to 12.0. Once fuel was dialed in bumped up timing looking for at least 8hp increase for each degree of timing. The whole curve moved up and eventually the increase below 4k started to narrow so started adding timing only up top.

After tuning without meth I added meth around 4000rpm and started moving timing up in 2deg increments for 2 pulls and then 1 deg until I got less than an 8hp increase and backed off 1 deg from that.

Result, Almost 100hp increase from meth. You can see the IAT temp difference with meth. N/A was obviously a different/warmer day and it was slightly cooler by the last pull but ECT was the about 180 for all pulls.

Numbers are SAE.

I've attached what changes I made in case it helps anyone trying to tune a similar combo. Pics show changes in timing for each combo. I used Tweecer RT with Binary editor on this car.

Attached Images
File Type: png Timing dyno meth Red Hatch.png (36.3 KB, 63 views)
File Type: png Intake gains vs baseline.png (171.6 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg 2 deg timing jumps Red Hatch meth.jpg (266.6 KB, 61 views)
File Type: png Boosted Estimates.png (74.2 KB, 51 views)
File Type: jpg Supercharged dyno session.jpg (159.2 KB, 70 views)

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo

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post #2 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 07:57 AM
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Does the Hogan's top swell a little with boost?


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post #3 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 09:30 AM Thread Starter
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Interesting question. I was driving so I can't say but being unbraced sheetmetal I would think it might ever so slightly...though 15psi is not a lot of pressure.

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #4 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 10:09 AM
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Very impressive build and dyno numbers. My advice, add HEET (yellow bottle) to your windshield washer fluid to increase you methanol percentage to water for better detonation control.

A couple of questions.
1) What size nozzle are you using for your Water/Methanol setup?
2) How did you determine the Hogan intake would be a better intake than the Holley? Was it based on calculations, or a software program?

Thanks
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post #5 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 10:48 AM
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It would have been nice to see the true results of the Holley vs the Hogan post supercharger.

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post #6 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 11:33 AM Thread Starter
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Michael, I'll definitely put some HEET in there. I attached my analysis of the Hogan vs Systemax upper in two of the attached pics of the first post and it's in the video (though you'd have to pause)

Basically I took the dyno results with both intakes with the same tune and graphed a delta. As expected the long runner won down low (up 10-13ft-lbs) and fell off earlier (down 25hp at 6000) on top. If I wasn't going to boost it I would have stayed with the Systemax. However, with increasing RPM the boost magnifies the advantage the Hogan had and it allowed my peak HP to go up above 6000. Because of the extra torque I knew I'd get at low RPM with a few pounds of boost I felt it was sufficient for street driving. The dyno turned out pretty close to the estimates as the estimates didn't account for any parasitic losses.

I could have made more going to 6500rpm as the curve is still going slightly and boost would have been approx. 19lbs but my stock tach was reading 6700 when it was actually 6000 and I just couldn't keep going in the red. Also I wasn't certain the dyno's tach was correct and it was laggy on the display. In my calculations the difference was 55HP at 6000 and about 90 at 6500 between the two intakes.

Because I dyno'd them N/A there was no reason to do it with boost as you can calculate the difference by simply multiplying the pressure ratio at each RPM by the HP/TQ at each RPM to get a good idea.
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post #7 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 11:43 AM Thread Starter
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The engine is built to withstand high rpm but before I go higher looks like I need a real tach to be comfortable. I was trying to avoid it with the clean daily driver look. I might just put in a Florida 5.0 set like my coupe.

Michael, do you think I should adjust the meth to come in sooner? I have the biggest nozzle (believe 375?) you can see where it comes in around 4000rpm in the graph of ACT vs RPM as there is a little hump where the temp starts up but goes right back down.

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #8 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sradtodrag View Post
It would have been nice to see the true results of the Holley vs the Hogan post supercharger.
Like it was mentioned above, I would of liked to see the Holley tested with the supercharger. I'm thinking your actual results would of been a lot different than your calculated results for the Holley. The Holley and supercharger setup would of produced a superior area underneath the curve for HP and TQ. Making it faster around town and probably at the track too. Writer Richard Holdener has a book titled 5.0L Ford dyno test and in Chapter 4, he has a section on Long vs. Short Runner Intakes (Supercharged).

Still doesn't change the fact that you have an awesome street car on your hands with a lots of HP on tap.

Here's the link: 5.0L Ford Dyno Tests - Richard Holdener - Google Books

Last edited by Michael Plummer; 12-05-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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post #9 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 02:25 PM
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Great numbers. I want to do a big bore 347 as well. Must be crazy times with 4 builds going on at once. I got three and its about 2 too much. How do you keep sane? Take care.


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post #10 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 08:24 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I'm crazy because I enjoy it.


[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #11 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmax5o View Post
Michael, do you think I should adjust the meth to come in sooner? I have the biggest nozzle (believe 375?) you can see where it comes in around 4000rpm in the graph of ACT vs RPM as there is a little hump where the temp starts up but goes right back down.
The biggest nozzle is 625ml/min, and I normally recommend 4 psi for start activation on street cars.

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post #12 of 25 Old 12-05-2014, 09:39 PM
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The best I could tell from the video was the Holley outperformed the Hogan by 5-13rwhp and 10-15rwtq up until around 5,500rpm in n/a trim? I saw the Hogan 323rwhp pull, but then later your chart shows a 343rwhp...was that further tuning on subsequent pulls later on?

I would also agree with Michael about giving up some peak numbers(above 5,500rpm) for the tq gains from 2,000-5,500 you'd have with the Holley on a street car. But at the same time, it does provide higher peak numbers that give it badass bonus points at car shows and such along with the fact that it seems you like the look of it better...so I'd say you made the right choice!

Beautiful Fox btw, looks and sounds fantastic!!

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post #13 of 25 Old 12-06-2014, 05:12 AM
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Can you post some pics of the car including the chromed out engine bay.

Thank you
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post #14 of 25 Old 12-07-2014, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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1992 vert. You are correct on the difference between the two intakes. I was wondering if someone was going to ask the question as you'd really have to study the slides in the video.

Basically, I paid for the standard 3 dyno runs for each intake so the Hogan was first and I tuned each run and got the numbers you saw. (I already had these tunes ready in positions on my Tweecer from tuning on the street so I just moved the switch and only paid the 3 pull rate vice the hourly tuning rate.)

Then I put on the Holley and did the first run with the same tune as run 3 with the Hogan so now I have a good comparison and used that to graph the difference you mentioned.

Then I tuned the Holley some more on the next two runs and made more gains.

Because the Hogan would have also made these gains with more tuning I adjusted the Hogan numbers for my calculations off the Holleys. In other words, Holley dyno - or + the Hogan difference established with the same tune comparison.

I decided the 50-100ph up top was worth the loss of 15ft bs down low

Michael, Chrome?? That is way too many hours sanding and polishing you are seeing.

By the way, I do have the 625ml nozzle.

I attached some pics. Here's a link to part of the build. It's long but so is the build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZqz-9zmSW0
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_9267.jpg (132.0 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_9273.jpg (106.7 KB, 61 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_9270.jpg (116.8 KB, 64 views)

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #15 of 25 Old 12-28-2014, 10:19 PM
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Nice numbers and thanks for taking the time to post, but I'm thoroughly confused regarding your intake testing. From what I gather, you're assuming that the Hogan outperforms the Holley based on tuning the Holley, but I don't see 50-100hp improvement anywhere. It seems likely that at 6,000 rpm and under the Holley would actually be the better intake. Am I missing something here?

BTW - That's crazy timing with meth for a boosted street car! Wow!

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post #16 of 25 Old 12-28-2014, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX View Post
Nice numbers and thanks for taking the time to post, but I'm thoroughly confused regarding your intake testing. From what I gather, you're assuming that the Hogan outperforms the Holley based on tuning the Holley, but I don't see 50-100hp improvement anywhere. It seems likely that at 6,000 rpm and under the Holley would actually be the better intake. Am I missing something here?

BTW - That's crazy timing with meth for a boosted street car! Wow!
I run 23 total with meth at 6500,17psi,11.5's,93 with dual nozzle setup

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post #17 of 25 Old 12-28-2014, 11:53 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Alex, when I said 50-100hp I was referring to the gain I would see boosted not the NA difference.

The crossover point where the Hogan took over the Holley was around 5200 rpm. Below that the Holley was generally up around 10hp. However the Hogan peaked around 5600 rpm and was pretty flat. Because of the significantly higher boost at higher rpm the power difference due to pressure ratio is more significant at the top of the band.

I got an Innovate Boost gauge and was able to datalog my boost curve. Putting actual boost numbers in my spreadsheet I got almost exactly the HP figures I had calculated up to about 5000 rpm where the delta increased due to parasitic losses. Using those new boost numbers here is an example of what I mean:

i.e. at 3500 RPM the Holley is up 10 HP NA and boost is 3.5lbs so the PR is 1.24.
10HP x 1.24 = 12.4 HP that the Holley would be up with boost. You might not even feel this.

At 6500 RPM the Hogan would be up about 30 HP NA but boost is 20lbs so PR is 2.36. 2.36 times 30 HP is about a 70 HP difference boosted. You'll definitely feel this.

Also, going with the Hogan with my small cam allowed me to move my HP curve higher so it was just peaking at 6000rpm. Since I have Jesel rockers and Beehive springs I am going to go back and spin it to 6500 and see what she does.

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #18 of 25 Old 12-29-2014, 09:46 PM
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I don't think the gain will be linear and predictable under boost. The way to check & estimate most easily would be to measure boost at the inlet to the upper, then swap uppers and measure boost at the inlet again. If the Holley was 70+ hp down, it would show an increase in boost. But then you'd also have temperature, timing and density variables, too. I think the Hogan will make a little more power up top, but not 70 hp. That's why factory blown cars make huge intake concessions for packaging reasons - it just doesn't matter as much.

Then again, I could be wrong, too.

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post #19 of 25 Old 12-30-2014, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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My assumption was 15lbs at 6000rpm not using the same pulley for both combos

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #20 of 25 Old 04-14-2017, 08:14 PM Thread Starter
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Update: 100hp for $380

I've been working on a bunch of other projects and finally pulled the cover off Old Red to do a little more work. I wanted to tune the car for a little more boost and spin the Ti up to its max rpm. As I was getting some belt slip on the last dyno I didn't want to go with a smaller supercharger pulley and have to crank down on the tensioner so I checked out the Renegade 8" pulley. Unfortunately it only comes with an underdrive serpentine pulley which is no good as I noticed at idle my voltage was down in the 12s. With 3 electric fans, 2 fuel pumps, an electric waterpump, KB BAP, stereo, cameras etc. that was not going to work.

I did some research and found folks had interference issues when putting on the 8" and had to use a longer belt as well as change the WP pulley to a smaller Cobra version. As I have an electric WP I could not change the pulley smaller. I measured my current Vortech 10 rib crank pulley and discovered it was an underdrive.

Solution, have a custom 10 rib 7.7" with stock size serpentine made by ASP. Here are some pics. With a few hours of dyno tuning I crept up to optimum timing and gained over 100hp and 100 ft lb of torque. Not bad for $380. This is about as far as I will go with 60lb injectors as I was at 78 percent, but over 800hp at the crank is plenty for a daily driver.

I attached a pic of graphs I made off the datalogs from the dyno session. Timing ended up staying right at 26 degrees throughout and hit almost 19lbs of boost at 6k.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4361[1].jpg (113.7 KB, 31 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4363[1].jpg (77.1 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4497[1].jpg (87.2 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4499[1].jpg (102.1 KB, 36 views)

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo

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post #21 of 25 Old 04-14-2017, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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pics

Here are pics of Excel files I made from datalogs. The dynos AFR was out of the tailpipe post catalytic converters so don't pay attention to those. The real AFRs are plotted from my Innovate wideband.
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File Type: jpg IMG_4531[1].jpg (140.7 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4532[1].jpg (78.4 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4533[1].jpg (82.3 KB, 19 views)

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #22 of 25 Old 04-17-2017, 07:42 AM
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Nice work and I'm glad to see the update.
Question: On your excel spreadsheet you listed the HP and TQ gained. Which numbers are you comparing your new numbers to? At 4250rpms you show 70rwhp gained but only have 2.2lbs of boost more. How is it that 2.2lbs of boost made 70rwhp more? Where there any other variables changed to accomplish your HP gained.

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post #23 of 25 Old 04-17-2017, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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It was compared to the final Meth tune graph in the earlier posts at 611 rwhp. I just noticed though that the dyno guy had STD selected for some reason vs SAE. I'll have to go back to the dyno and get those numbers for a better comparison.

The only changes were fuel and timing. As my MAF was getting into a higher voltage with the extra boost I tuned the upper range to bring the AFR down to high 11s low 12s and then added more timing. I actually ended up with the same timing as with the smaller crank pulley. Pretty much 26.5 degrees throughout the rpm range. Started conservatively and the first 2 deg advance increased 36 rwhp and 32 rwtq but going up another 1.5 deg went down slightly so I took out .75 deg and got 709. Actually run 7 was 719 but it wasn't smooth so I threw it out.

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo
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post #24 of 25 Old 04-17-2017, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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SAE numbers

Got the SAE numbers...696 rwhp 630 rwtq. Corrected the Excel file to reflect. It's a gain of between 22-30hp per pound of boost which is in the ballpark.

attached a comparison to my Dad's Challenger Hellcat dyno
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_4578.jpg (113.4 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_4580.jpg (84.1 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Maxwell Red90B.jpg (107.2 KB, 16 views)

[U][B]White 89 LX conv Coyote crate motor, MM front rear suspension, T56 Magnum, Cobra Brakes, 18x9 and 18x10 w NT05, custom leather Saleen flofits [B][U]89 Red Notch- BOSS 331, TDC twin turbo, 04 IRS, TKO 600, 06 18" Blades, 04 Cobra brakes, Mach 1 interior under construction...91 GT 347 Dart Big Bore, Vortech Ti , Viper T56, full MM suspension, Brembo

Last edited by dmax5o; 04-17-2017 at 08:45 PM.
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post #25 of 25 Old 04-20-2017, 12:45 PM Thread Starter
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Had some questions on the pulley set up. With the 7.7 crank and a 3.13 blower it put up the same boost level as the Vortech crank and a 2.95. I've been stepped up to a 2.95. With the right length belt you get more wrap around the crank and blower pulley and it keeps it Away from the water pump pulley.

7.7" crank w 2.95 pulley Gates fleetrunner green stripe k100554HD

for 7.7 crank and 3.13 blower Gates fleetrunner green stripe k100563HD
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