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Old 03-19-2012, 09:55 PM   #36
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Smile Water/meth injection

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My car was built to go to the strip, but not built for the strip…if that makes sense...so I try to get it out a few times a year for some fun. Last fall, after getting my new motor together and tuned, I ran it in True Street during Civil Wars at Rockingham Dragway(NC) and ran a best of 12.589 @ 116.56mph. However, that day I was fighting the factory tensioner that couldn’t keep the 6-rib belt from flipping out of alignment during shifts and eventually shredding itself just before the stripe. Then shortly after that race I discovered my meth nozzles were partially clogged.

Civil Wars run Sept '11(soft roll-out on 18” hoops with Nitto Invo’s):

Mystichrome & Red Kenne Bell Vert 2.MOD - YouTube

Over the winter I put on a Gates HD tensioner, replaced the nozzles(and cleaned the old ones for spares) and removed the NGK R5671A-7’s for Autolite 3923’s. The belt was staying put during highway blasts so I felt confident to head back to the track and try it again. I also bought a set of 17” Alumastars with M/T Drag Radials.

This past Saturday my Fox Body club had a Drag Meet during a test-n-tune day at zMAX Dragway. I made four runs with the quickest being 11.631 @ 124.45mph, followed up with a slower 11.914 @ 125.73…but that mph was encouraging.

Pics and vids from this past Saturday:




Yes, this is my car “digging” in…lol…Maximum Motorsports suspension isn’t very 60’ friendly!



GoPro on the windshield:

1992Vert running T&T @Zmax - YouTube

GoPro on my buddy's S-trim GT, killing me thru the first two gears making me play catch up the whole time!

5.SLO vs 1992Vert @ ZMax T&T - YouTube

Some takeaways:

Meth Injection nozzles require periodic cleaning. Residual solution in the nozzles will dry out and crystallize, over time it builds up and begins to hurt flow. Snow’s nozzles can be taken apart and serviced and I would suggest you do this 1-2 times a year depending on driving(meaning if you drive a lot, perhaps not as often because you’re constantly running fluid thru them, whereas my car can sit for a few weeks straight sometimes).

A little more than a year ago I was told to run the NGKs. I re-gapped them at about the 6 month mark and they’ve run fine in my car the entire time. Recently I stumbled on the fact that the NGK’s have a 5/8” reach where AFR recommends a plug with a 3/4” reach for my heads. I decided to try the proper length 3923’s and guess what, they run fine too. I don’t put a lot of stock in spark plugs, as long as the car pulls clean with no hiccups or misfires...run ’em!

Lastly, the question often comes up about how long a tank of water/meth will last. Of course that depends on how much you’re injecting and how often you’re in boost. I run 2-625ml/min nozzles pre-blower and my controller injects A LOT to keep the KB cool. Here’s a pic of my 3qt reservoir after four 1/4mi blasts.(about half empty)



It’s another fun weekend ahead as I ordered some 26” ET Streets that’ll be here tomorrow so back to zMAX on Saturday in search of lower ETs. Then putting on my 17x9s shod with Hoosier A6s and hitting a local SCCA Auto-x on Sunday…then that MM suspension will be more in its element!
At what rpm and and what boost level do you have your water/meth injection start to come on at since you get all your boost at aorund 2000rpm?
Are you running a 50/50 water/meth by weight?
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:14 PM   #37
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At what rpm and and what boost level do you have your water/meth injection start to come on at since you get all your boost at aorund 2000rpm?
Are you running a 50/50 water/meth by weight?
It's the Stage 2 kit and I use the MAF signal for the trigger. It activates around 2.8v and is spraying full by 4.0v. 2.8v is perfect for me as when cruising loads typically stay below that, but the slightest bid of pedal and it's spraying. I use Snow's "Boost Juice" pre-mix, which is 49% meth/51% water, (for shipping purposes) and I believe is by weight??
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Old 03-19-2012, 11:54 PM   #38
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Quick update:

Went back to zMAX this past Saturday with some borrowed ET Streets(mine didn't get here in time) and I didn't do any better. This coming weekend is an All Ford Show & Race at an 1/8mi all concrete track about an 1.5 hours up the road. I'm hoping to show in the morning and make some fun runs in the afternoon so with new tires and a track with a rep for traction we'll see if I can find the sweet spot for a better 60'!

Then this past Sunday I went to my first Autocross and ran in Street Modified-Novice. Finished 11th out of 32 Novices on PAX time(curve adjusted), but second fastest using the raw time and 47th out of 125 total entrants(novice to pro's). My best time was 46.237sec while the top Pro's were running between 41-42sec. It was unbelievably fun and my MM suspension worked awesome!! My car was pulling the inside front wheel on several turn exits which speaks volumes to the chassis stiffness, tire grip and the power being put down!

Sitting in the paddock with the Hoosier A6's strapped on and waiting!



My buddy and auto-x expert Jamie riding shotgun:




Haven't come across any wheelie pics yet, but my car was doing this...

[/QUOTE]

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Old 03-20-2012, 01:29 AM   #39
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Smile Water/meth

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It's the Stage 2 kit and I use the MAF signal for the trigger. It activates around 2.8v and is spraying full by 4.0v. 2.8v is perfect for me as when cruising loads typically stay below that, but the slightest bid of pedal and it's spraying. I use Snow's "Boost Juice" pre-mix, which is 49% meth/51% water, (for shipping purposes) and I believe is by weight??
Guess i am asking if you know when your meth turns onby boost and rpm.... ...say 6psi and 2000 rpm. Is 2.8v = 6psi and @ 2000 rpm? Am woundering if you inject early on at low rpm and low boost since it is a positive displacement blower and not a centrifugal.Or do you just have it come on at the higher rpm and not worry about boost?.Also what kind of tuner are you using.
Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2012, 09:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by black 93 lx View Post
Guess i am asking if you know when your meth turns onby boost and rpm.... ...say 6psi and 2000 rpm. Is 2.8v = 6psi and @ 2000 rpm? Am woundering if you inject early on at low rpm and low boost since it is a positive displacement blower and not a centrifugal.Or do you just have it come on at the higher rpm and not worry about boost?.Also what kind of tuner are you using.
Thanks.
Yes, I chose to reference the MAF voltage signal to better meter the injection points, because using boost on a pd blower setup would just dump solution like and on/off switch. As it stands now it's more like a dimmer switch that moves quickly. Not to say it wouldn't work using boost, I just don't think it'll work as well and I think most tuners would agree. For me, it's all about load as it's the end result of boost & rpm.

I use an SCT chip.

I believe I remember reading where the centrif guys begin injecting around the 8-10psi level and going full maybe by 14-15psi(depending on max boost, rpm, etc.)....but don't quote me as others can chime in with real experience. Better yet, Michael Plummer is one of the better resources for meth injection on a centrif car.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:07 PM   #41
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Your car runs in the SM class at the autoX? I used to run SM and I think when I added the blower they said I had to move up to SM2. That was back around '05 though, so things might have changed.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:11 PM   #42
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Your car runs in the SM class at the autoX? I used to run SM and I think when I added the blower they said I had to move up to SM2. That was back around '05 though, so things might have changed.
I told them what I had and that's where they put me...all I know is I was surrounded by heavily modded Subie WRX's!!
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:13 PM   #43
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Yes, I chose to reference the MAF voltage signal to better meter the injection points, because using boost on a pd blower setup would just dump solution like and on/off switch. As it stands now it's more like a dimmer switch that moves quickly. Not to say it wouldn't work using boost, I just don't think it'll work as well and I think most tuners would agree. For me, it's all about load as it's the end result of boost & rpm.

I use an SCT chip.

I believe I remember reading where the centrif guys begin injecting around the 8-10psi level and going full maybe by 14-15psi(depending on max boost, rpm, etc.)....but don't quote me as others can chime in with real experience. Better yet, Michael Plummer is one of the better resources for meth injection on a centrif car.
When setting up your meth kit by MAF voltage signal did you find that you could run hi boots before the meth turned on? I find on my meth kit (using MAF signal) and my 1.5 kb i can be in first gear at say 3ooo rpm with high vacuum say 15hgs and not activate the meth. Also find that i can get 9.5psi (9.5 my max boost) at around 2000 rpm and before the meth starts to spray depending what gear i am in. I can be in say 4rd gear doing 45mph and step on it get full boost and not yet have meth turn on till rpm is higher. It all depends how i drive the car when the meth turns on. Not enough air flow but i get full boost.Think i got it pretty good for all driving now.
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Old 03-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by black 93 lx View Post
When setting up your meth kit by MAF voltage signal did you find that you could run hi boots before the meth turned on? I find on my meth kit (using MAF signal) and my 1.5 kb i can be in first gear at say 3ooo rpm with high vacuum say 15hgs and not activate the meth. Also find that i can get 9.5psi (9.5 my max boost) at around 2000 rpm and before the meth starts to spray depending what gear i am in. I can be in say 4rd gear doing 45mph and step on it get full boost and not yet have meth turn on till rpm is higher. It all depends how i drive the car when the meth turns on. Not enough air flow but i get full boost.Think i got it pretty good for all driving now.
It's all load dependent. If you are seeing vacuum instead of boost there's no load on the engine regardless of the rpm. Boost = load.

Which kit do you have? What activation setting(s) do you have the controller set to?
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:59 PM   #45
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I use a Hobbs boost switch in series with an RPM switch (to show that it can be done as the poster was asking.)

I set my meth injection to turn on at 3-4 psi and 3500 RPM. If you think about how you might drive when daily driving you'll realize why my meth injection never activates unless I'm really getting on it.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:11 PM   #46
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Smile water/meth

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It's all load dependent. If you are seeing vacuum instead of boost there's no load on the engine regardless of the rpm. Boost = load.

Which kit do you have? What activation setting(s) do you have the controller set to?
Understand load dependent. You can get your boost say at 9 psi at low rpm and not hit the 2.8 MAF signal and not trigger the turn on.I have a manual trans.I know i can be driving down the freeway in 4th at 50 say and romp on it and boost will hit max right now but not enough air moving yet to trigger load if that makes sense.

Have: http://alkycontrol.com/
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:17 PM   #47
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I use a Hobbs boost switch in series with an RPM switch (to show that it can be done as the poster was asking.)

I set my meth injection to turn on at 3-4 psi and 3500 RPM. If you think about how you might drive when daily driving you'll realize why my meth injection never activates unless I'm really getting on it.
What happens if you floor it at 2000 rpm and get full boost and meth has not started spraying yet ...pinging??? Any problem running full boost below 3500 with out meth at your boost level.
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:22 PM   #48
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Smile water/meth

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It's all load dependent. If you are seeing vacuum instead of boost there's no load on the engine regardless of the rpm. Boost = load.

Which kit do you have? What activation setting(s) do you have the controller set to?
Guess what i am concerned about is running 9.5 psi on 91 octane at low rpm and meth not spraying yet and car pining.
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:19 PM   #49
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You can get your boost say at 9 psi at low rpm and not hit the 2.8 MAF signal and not trigger the turn on.I have a manual trans.I know i can be driving down the freeway in 4th at 50 say and romp on it and boost will hit max right now but not enough air moving yet to trigger load if that makes sense.
My car on the dyno sees 18-20psi and ~2.8v from the hit, which is why I set my activation point at 2.8v. Anytime I'm hanging foot into it my little green injection indicator lights up at the exact moment I feel it should. It was the correct point of activation on the dyno, as evidenced by the controlled IATs and on the street I get no bogging or pinging which confirms the injection timing and amount of fluid is right.

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Originally Posted by black 93 lx View Post
What happens if you floor it at 2000 rpm and get full boost and meth has not started spraying yet ...pinging???
Is this happening with your car or are you asking a hypothetical question?

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Originally Posted by black 93 lx View Post
Guess what i am concerned about is running 9.5 psi on 91 octane at low rpm and meth not spraying yet and car pining.
I would say anything under 10psi probably doesn't warrant meth injection, but I think I saw you mention you have a 1.5L KB so your IATs are likely elevated enough to benefit some. I'm not familiar with your kit, but if you are seeing full boost and the meth is not activating, you either have a component installed incorrectly or your activation point on the controller(whether boost or MAF voltage) is set too high. Keep lowering it until you see the meth trigger at a point you're happy with.

Have you been to a tuner?
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'12 GT500 PP - KB 3.6 on the way

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Old 03-22-2012, 12:12 AM   #50
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What happens if you floor it at 2000 rpm and get full boost and meth has not started spraying yet ...pinging??? Any problem running full boost below 3500 with out meth at your boost level.
I tend not to do things like that in a high gear where the engine will load up and could knock. Under normal acceleration, it's almost instantaneous that the engine revs and the meth is on, haven't heard any knock.

The Hobbs and RPM switch are both adjustable, so I have dialed in these settings based on how the car runs.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:44 AM   #51
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My car on the dyno sees 18-20psi and ~2.8v from the hit, which is why I set my activation point at 2.8v. Anytime I'm hanging foot into it my little green injection indicator lights up at the exact moment I feel it should. It was the correct point of activation on the dyno, as evidenced by the controlled IATs and on the street I get no bogging or pinging which confirms the injection timing and amount of fluid is right.



Is this happening with your car or are you asking a hypothetical question?

No not happening with my car. Was asking what if on your car. Guess a better question is how many psi can you run with with 91 octane with out meth before it pings.Guess depends how it was tuned.
I would say anything under 10psi probably doesn't warrant meth injection, but I think I saw you mention you have a 1.5L KB so your IATs are likely elevated enough to benefit some. I'm not familiar with your kit, but if you are seeing full boost and the meth is not activating, you either have a component installed incorrectly or your activation point on the controller(whether boost or MAF voltage) is set too high. Keep lowering it until you see the meth trigger at a point you're happy with.

Think i have it good now.Need to get a wide band Have you been to a tuner?
Yes. Had it tuned with the water/meth on a dyno here in Calif. about 6 months ago.Took car for a test drive after tune and it would fall on it's face from a stop, rolling stop when you romped on it. Did not matter what gear.Only ran good if you got the rpm up high say 3500-4000 and romped on it...then it ran good.4th gear pulls on the dyno dont = street tune.Was not happy camper.Now have it much better since i have been adjusting the meth injection and i can get on it, from a standing start or 2,3,4 gear with out falling on its face at low rpm.Was like some one pulled the coil wire.... was really disappointing after getting it professionally tuned on the dyno.Did talk to the tuner after i took it for a test drive...he said tune was good.Did not feel like arguing.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:49 AM   #52
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water/meth

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I tend not to do things like that in a high gear where the engine will load up and could knock. Under normal acceleration, it's almost instantaneous that the engine revs and the meth is on, haven't heard any knock.

The Hobbs and RPM switch are both adjustable, so I have dialed in these settings based on how the car runs.
Thanks.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:13 PM   #53
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Took car for a test drive after tune and it would fall on it's face from a stop, rolling stop when you romped on it. Did not matter what gear.Only ran good if you got the rpm up high say 3500-4000 and romped on it...
Sounds like it's dumping the meth and over injecting at low rpm causing the motor to bog, which is why it did fine in the higher rpm when the motor can use it. Assuming you were on an inertia dyno, where you don't see real world load, the motor's more free to rev so it masked the issue during the tune. The problem is you dialed it back to get rid of the bog, but now you don't have the knock protection down low(where you need it with the KB).

What nozzle(s) are you running and does your controller act like a on/off switch or does it progressively increase the amount fluid between two points(start and full)?
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'97 Cobra - the second coming of project "Q-Ship"
'12 GT500 PP - KB 3.6 on the way

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Old 03-22-2012, 08:30 PM   #54
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Sounds like it's dumping the meth and over injecting at low rpm causing the motor to bog, which is why it did fine in the higher rpm when the motor can use it. Assuming you were on an inertia dyno, where you don't see real world load, the motor's more free to rev so it masked the issue during the tune. The problem is you dialed it back to get rid of the bog, but now you don't have the knock protection down low(where you need it with the KB).

What nozzle(s) are you running and does your controller act like a on/off switch or does it progressively increase the amount fluid between two points(start and full)?
Kit came with a M15. Tried it when i first got it but that bogged with 50/50.Tried adjusting some. Changed to M10 and had it tuned with that.After i got it home i played with the injection settings and the rap at which it starts to spray. Much better. Say 1 out of 15 hard pulls i would get it to fall on its face at low rpm.Now have a M7 and more adjusting and no bogs.Need to get a wide band and see where i am at.Most guys running this kit run straight meth...hence the M15 nozzle.The guy that tuned my car likes 50/50 so I went with that.I did notice that you have 2-625ml/min nozzles in your set up but you are running 18-20psi.I am only running 9.5-10.5 psi.Did notice that i got about 1to 1.5psi more when i spray water/meth pre blower with a 8 psi pulley
on.
Did the math and should be about 9gph at 200psi as i recall...would have to recalculate
Kit progressively increase the amount fluid between two points(start and full)
Signal off mass air meter
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:44 PM   #55
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1992vert,
In the 2nd video if you listen closely you can hear the kennebell blower coming down the track as you start to reel your buddy in.
LOL! That's all I hear in that video. Can't even hear your buddies car.

I'd be happy as hell with some 1.6's short times. Not bad for the suspension you have and the torque the KB makes.

I'm hoping to get some track time in this year to get some 130mph trap speeds with some decent 60' times. We'll see.

Keep up the good work. Love those GoPros!
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:10 PM   #56
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Awesome car!!! Nice times and mph!
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:50 AM   #57
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Thanks guys...I'm looking for the best time I can get out of it this spring, enjoy it over the summer and then change up the combo in the fall.
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:20 PM   #58
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...

This past Saturday my Fox Body club had a Drag Meet during a test-n-tune day at zMAX Dragway. I made four runs with the quickest being 11.631 @ 124.45mph, followed up with a slower 11.914 @ 125.73…but that mph was encouraging.

...
Nice times BTW! I'm jealous.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:45 PM   #59
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Nice times BTW! I'm jealous.
Thanks Cougar...she's no barn burner, but respectable.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:54 PM   #60
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Hey Troy, glad to see your car is up and running and your getting some track time. I'm getting real antsy now with the warm weather and seeing you already off and running with your southern advantage. like you I see my ride as a street car that has the power potential for great track number, but not willing to sacrifice to much to get fast at the track. How did you fair with your winter upgrades Flowzilla Tmoss porting and I think you did something else to can't remember. Anyway you car looks stellar and I love to see videos of my Corral mates going fast and making power and of course having fun.

I'm kicking my project into high gear, sliding the new Freezy cam in next week and setting up the new pipe and intake locations for the large 3.5" pipe on my new 2.8L. Also still working with Kurt on the prototype A2A and he is doing a mondo inlet system for my setup also. I'll keep you posted and would also love to hear and see more on your ride.
Sorry for the delayed response Shawn...the short list of things I spoke with you about I never did. The "potentially" additional 20-30whp was going to run about $1k and just didn't feel it was worth it, especially when I'm at the end of the road with this combination anyway. Just been enjoying it as it was from last year!

...I AM continuing to follow your build though!!
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #61
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What are you gonna change about the combination?
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:01 AM   #62
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What are you gonna change about the combination?
Either:

- Novi2000 on the current motor maxed out on meth
- Built and stroked 4v with a KB on meth
- Blown Coyote on meth

Working on a couple things that'll end up steering my decision!
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Last edited by 1992vert; 03-27-2012 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:09 PM   #63
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Troy your leaving me, and here I thought we would go down the road of chasing hp numbers together with our KB push rod setups.

Truthfully I'm really impressed with what you did with your 331 and a little 2.1L KB, my hat is off to you there.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:25 PM   #64
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I remember when just getting in the 11s was rare for a KB car. Haha. Back in '01 when I ran 11.75@119 I was one of the few...and with a 1.5 at that. Man I kinda want a KB. LOL.
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:01 PM   #65
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Troy your leaving me, and here I thought we would go down the road of chasing hp numbers together with our KB push rod setups.

Truthfully I'm really impressed with what you did with your 331 and a little 2.1L KB, my hat is off to you there.
LOL, thanks Shawn!!
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Old 04-09-2012, 09:25 PM   #66
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Hey guys! Just to close this thread out, I mentioned I've been auto-x'ing some lately...well I made it to my second event and this time with a GoPro on board. The MM suspension goodies are finally paying off!



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Old 04-10-2012, 12:15 AM   #67
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Smile water/meth tak size

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My car was built to go to the strip, but not built for the strip…if that makes sense...so I try to get it out a few times a year for some fun. Last fall, after getting my new motor together and tuned, I ran it in True Street during Civil Wars at Rockingham Dragway(NC) and ran a best of 12.589 @ 116.56mph. However, that day I was fighting the factory tensioner that couldn’t keep the 6-rib belt from flipping out of alignment during shifts and eventually shredding itself just before the stripe. Then shortly after that race I discovered my meth nozzles were partially clogged.

Civil Wars run Sept '11(soft roll-out on 18” hoops with Nitto Invo’s):

Mystichrome & Red Kenne Bell Vert 2.MOD - YouTube

Over the winter I put on a Gates HD tensioner, replaced the nozzles(and cleaned the old ones for spares) and removed the NGK R5671A-7’s for Autolite 3923’s. The belt was staying put during highway blasts so I felt confident to head back to the track and try it again. I also bought a set of 17” Alumastars with M/T Drag Radials.

This past Saturday my Fox Body club had a Drag Meet during a test-n-tune day at zMAX Dragway. I made four runs with the quickest being 11.631 @ 124.45mph, followed up with a slower 11.914 @ 125.73…but that mph was encouraging.

Pics and vids from this past Saturday:




Yes, this is my car “digging” in…lol…Maximum Motorsports suspension isn’t very 60’ friendly!



GoPro on the windshield:

1992Vert running T&T @Zmax - YouTube

GoPro on my buddy's S-trim GT, killing me thru the first two gears making me play catch up the whole time!

5.SLO vs 1992Vert @ ZMax T&T - YouTube

Some takeaways:

Meth Injection nozzles require periodic cleaning. Residual solution in the nozzles will dry out and crystallize, over time it builds up and begins to hurt flow. Snow’s nozzles can be taken apart and serviced and I would suggest you do this 1-2 times a year depending on driving(meaning if you drive a lot, perhaps not as often because you’re constantly running fluid thru them, whereas my car can sit for a few weeks straight sometimes).

A little more than a year ago I was told to run the NGKs. I re-gapped them at about the 6 month mark and they’ve run fine in my car the entire time. Recently I stumbled on the fact that the NGK’s have a 5/8” reach where AFR recommends a plug with a 3/4” reach for my heads. I decided to try the proper length 3923’s and guess what, they run fine too. I don’t put a lot of stock in spark plugs, as long as the car pulls clean with no hiccups or misfires...run ’em!

Lastly, the question often comes up about how long a tank of water/meth will last. Of course that depends on how much you’re injecting and how often you’re in boost. I run 2-625ml/min nozzles pre-blower and my controller injects A LOT to keep the KB cool. Here’s a pic of my 3qt reservoir after four 1/4mi blasts.(about half empty)



It’s another fun weekend ahead as I ordered some 26” ET Streets that’ll be here tomorrow so back to zMAX on Saturday in search of lower ETs. Then putting on my 17x9s shod with Hoosier A6s and hitting a local SCCA Auto-x on Sunday…then that MM suspension will be more in its element!

Forgot to ask...how many quarts does your water/meth tank hold?
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:03 PM   #68
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Forgot to ask...how many quarts does your water/meth tank hold?
3qt
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