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Old 10-04-2011, 09:31 AM   #1
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Head recommendations to improve on my Trick Flow 170 heads??

Currently running Trick Flow Fast as Cast 170 heads, either TFS-51410002 (non-o-ringed) or TFS-51410003 (o-ringed). DSS installed the heads and built the motor. Receipt does not specify if they were o'ringed or not. Currently @ 637 whp, 573 tq. Considering going to a bigger head over winter.

What head do you recommend and why? Wondering if I am going to see enough increase here to make this worth-the while. Trick Flow claims up to 50 hp more with their CNC ported heads over as-cast heads. Not planning to change anything else except going to a T56 for my winter projects, and wife is already not happy about it .

Re-Dyno tuning in spring.

My cam is AFM B451 232/240 .576/.576 w/1.6 rocker 112
Pistons are DSS Max Quench -18cc dish, Inline & Twisted Wedge For use with most cylinder heads.
Have 1.6 DSS RR and 4130 seamless .080" pushrods.
1 3/4" MAC Long Tube Headers

I am leaning toward Trick Flow CNC Ported 185cc or 205cc heads. Not sure if I should do the 185 or the 205.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:47 AM   #2
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Do you have a specific goal in mind? Are you looking for an ET or power number? I would give Kurgan a call and discuss some options with him as he can get excellent deals on that stuff.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:28 PM   #3
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Recommend sending the heads to fox lake and have them ported.

On a previous car I had, I had a 363 R motor with Fox lake stage 2 TW heads, TFS R intake and a YS trim vortech. That car made ~720rwhp with an A9L processor (SCTchip tuned) and a 5 speed.

That same motor made 977rwhp at 30lbs of boost when I switched from the blower to a turbo and FAST electronics. Ported TW heads will support a LOT of power.
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Old 10-04-2011, 02:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukkoi18 View Post
Do you have a specific goal in mind? Are you looking for an ET or power number? I would give Kurgan a call and discuss some options with him as he can get excellent deals on that stuff.
I will talk to him. He is doing my tune in spring......have talked to him about that already. I am more interested in the real world driving of the car than the dyno #. Not necassarily track ET as I don't make it out often and with only a 6 point roll bar in a vert, I imagine I will be evicted when I do go with this car.

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Recommend sending the heads to fox lake and have them ported.

On a previous car I had, I had a 363 R motor with Fox lake stage 2 TW heads, TFS R intake and a YS trim vortech. That car made ~720rwhp with an A9L processor (SCTchip tuned) and a 5 speed.

That same motor made 977rwhp at 30lbs of boost when I switched from the blower to a turbo and FAST electronics. Ported TW heads will support a LOT of power.
Having the 170 heads that I can sell fully assembled, it will cost me about the same amount of money to strip mine down and send them out for porting as it will to buy the CNC ported heads new from Trick Flow and recoup $800 or so from the 170s, and less work on my end. The CNC 185's flow nearly identical to the stage 2 porting and the CNC 205's are smack in the middle of stage 3 & 4 porting. Just makes more sense for me to buy the new ones.

The 205 CNC is what trick flow used to test: "When dyno-tested on a fuel injected 347 stroker mill, the Twisted Wedge® 205 heads made 50 more horsepower than the Twisted Wedge® 170 heads". That was a naturally aspirated 347. http://static.trickflow.com/global/i...rkht%20205.pdf

Trick Flow® Twisted Wedge® 205 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Ford: TFS-51400004-C02 - trickflow.com
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:13 PM   #5
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i think the 170 cast is the same as the 205 cast so if thats the case send them to TEA have the m upgrade springs(maby even wider springs mine were upgraded to a wider PAC spring) and cnc them to a 205 port. not sure what valves you have but maby an upgrade there to. i think there is a lot to be had with a 205 vs 170 head.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:26 PM   #6
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I will talk to him. He is doing my tune in spring......have talked to him about that already. I am more interested in the real world driving of the car than the dyno #. Not necassarily track ET as I don't make it out often and with only a 6 point roll bar in a vert, I imagine I will be evicted when I do go with this car.
Are the current heads giving you problems? From what I gather you want to make more power. Personally I think there is quite a bit left in your combo. That dyno I posted earlier was with stock old style TFS heads unported through an A9L no less and TH400. I would bet Bobby can push your current combo considerably and with the meth you are going to be plenty safe.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:38 PM   #7
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I have 150lb springs. My combo is not secret. Just a hobby car. The motor is:







No problems, just thinking if I can pick up 35+ whp for $1000......may as well do it and set up my next change. Then next winter upgrade to a YSi. Can't see doing a YSi this year with the smallish heads still on.

Not sure how old you are talking on the old style heads. My combo was put together in 2005 @ DSS so may be in that category too??? I am just not a head guru......hence the reason for the questions.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:43 PM   #8
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They were built in the late 90s in the days before all the Summit Specials and Fast as Cast kits. We kept the heads when we upgraded to a YSi and made 730 rwhp. Obviously they needed to go at that point but it wasn't pointless. I think there is more than 35 rwhp in the tune alone. But if you are wanting to all in one the next tune with the larger heads and YSi then upgrading now will make it easier.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:54 PM   #9
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Leave the heads and put a YSI on it. Have built 2 cars with the same cam you have ect..., and went 8.70's with both.
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Old 10-04-2011, 06:27 PM   #10
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I have thought about doing the YSi this year and leaving the heads. Not quite sure which one will result in the best all around benefit. 8.7 is plenty fast. Sh*t, anywhere in 9's will be good for me.

Cost will probably be about the same either way out of pocket. I can find YSi used and sell my T for about $1k less. Or I can buy new heads and sell mine for $1k less.

I am retuning regardless of what I do. Just want to see how Kurgan does it vs Post for my own knowledge. Not to compare the 2 and I won't go there. Just the differences in how they do things.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:29 PM   #11
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If you decide to upgrade to a ysi let me know as i have been thinking about upgrading my s trim to a T trim.
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:33 PM   #12
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I have thought about doing the YSi this year and leaving the heads. Not quite sure which one will result in the best all around benefit. 8.7 is plenty fast. Sh*t, anywhere in 9's will be good for me.

Cost will probably be about the same either way out of pocket. I can find YSi used and sell my T for about $1k less. Or I can buy new heads and sell mine for $1k less.

I am retuning regardless of what I do. Just want to see how Kurgan does it vs Post for my own knowledge. Not to compare the 2 and I won't go there. Just the differences in how they do things.
that big ysi and those little heads is way out of wack!!! of coarse it will make power but you are leaving tons on the table. get some better heads then down the road get that ysi. just my .02
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Old 10-04-2011, 09:36 PM   #13
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If you decide to upgrade to a ysi let me know as i have been thinking about upgrading my s trim to a T trim.
there is a t-trim with renegade brackets, renegade discharge, pullys, etc on nmra classifieds right now for $2500. and i know the seller, head unit has like 25 passes on it thats it!!!!
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Old 10-05-2011, 07:02 PM   #14
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The 205 cc heads are great. just ask how I know
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:42 PM   #15
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I am leaning toward heads if I make a change. Think I should do the heads and 3" exhaust this year, and do YSi, if I still have a need to go faster, next year.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:31 PM   #16
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I am leaning toward heads if I make a change. Think I should do the heads and 3" exhaust this year, and do YSi, if I still have a need to go faster, next year.
good choice, get a hold of fox lake racing or TEA and they can make your 170's into some super bad azz 205's
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:59 PM   #17
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Probably just gonna sell the 170's and buy the CNC ported 205's new from TF. Sell off my 2.5" and go with a 3" and see what that yields. I also have the 6 speed I am going to add and the new tune. I don't want to work any more hours than required to get all of this done in 5 months or so. That is over $1g a month in the car..........and as I said wife is not happy about the money.......or me out in the garage all this time, so end of the road for this off season.....lol.
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Old 10-06-2011, 06:11 AM   #18
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Probably just gonna sell the 170's and buy the CNC ported 205's new from TF. Sell off my 2.5" and go with a 3" and see what that yields. I also have the 6 speed I am going to add and the new tune. I don't want to work any more hours than required to get all of this done in 5 months or so. That is over $1g a month in the car..........and as I said wife is not happy about the money.......or me out in the garage all this time, so end of the road for this off season.....lol.
if you do buy brand new just make sure you get them from fox lake or TEA(not summit). you will get better stuff on your heads. mine were $2100 from TEA.
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:50 AM   #19
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:01 AM   #20
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Im kind of surprised noone has considered a set of high ports?

how about some Kuntz track 1's and lose the manual altogether?
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:13 AM   #21
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hi ports is an INLINE HEAD... the OP has a twisted wedge, which is a specific piston..

PLUS, Hi ports can support 1500hp and have huge runners.. they also have a raised exhaust port etc and use different rockers
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Old 10-06-2011, 11:37 AM   #22
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Well, maybe I will just send these out to Fox Lake and put them back on. Costs me about the same amount of money. Probably send the lim with em.
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:13 PM   #23
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Then next winter upgrade to a YSi. Can't see doing a YSi this year with the smallish heads still on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhinchley View Post
I have thought about doing the YSi this year and leaving the heads.
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I am leaning toward heads if I make a change. Think I should do the heads and 3" exhaust this year, and do YSi, if I still have a need to go faster, next year.
Lots of flip flopping in one and half day. Just messing with ya, been there myself racking my brain trying to make the right choice.

Good luck
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:50 PM   #24
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here is a question i have, is 634rwhp on the street not enough? i totally understand wanting better heads but do not understand guys wanting the ysi in a street app. making 800+rwhp. i DOOO undestand the ego thing though(maby thats it??)

and here is a question i have for bob, as HP goes up (800-1000) can you still maintain drivability(tuning wise) or is that something you are just going to have to sacrafice at those hp levels? seems like a very drivable 650hp car would be a lot more fun than a hp monster that sucks to drive on the street
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:48 PM   #25
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Well Plummer kind of alluded to it. I am not quite sure on several things. It will see the track occasionally (3-4 times a year). Right now, I am set against a full cage, but since I do change my mind a lot, it could on that too. If I find one or have one made that I can remove the halo on when not at the track so it does not look like a dune buggy with the top down, I would probably do it.
The YSi I know is just as streetable as the T and the heads arent going to change from what I have now, save for porting, so neither will effect drivability. For me it is more about how much time I want to spend in the garage, how much overtime I want to work this winter to fund it all, and how much I want to listen to my wife b*tch about the two things just mentioned. By the time it is all over, I may just end up with the 6 speed in it and a new tune. TBD....
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:02 PM   #26
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After taking the car out tonight, maybe the 6 speed and a new tune is enough for this offseason modding. The car is more than a handful on the street. Maybe I should just leave it be besides that.
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:20 PM   #27
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After taking the car out tonight, maybe the 6 speed and a new tune is enough for this offseason modding. The car is more than a handful on the street. Maybe I should just leave it be besides that.
if your happy keep it the way it is. the heads would be a great upgrade for the upcoming tune though and easy enough to swap in. your wife would probably be happier with out them though
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:38 PM   #28
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After taking the car out tonight, maybe the 6 speed and a new tune is enough for this offseason modding. The car is more than a handful on the street. Maybe I should just leave it be besides that.
Why do you want to "tune" it again? Didn't you have Mike Post tune it this last summer.
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:39 AM   #29
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What pulleys are you running

i would change pulleys befor the next tune and have a street serp. tune and a cog tune for the track there is still more HP to be had out of that blower and head combo. imo

i still have those 72x29 35mm cogs in the parts cave you can try. should be good to 21 psi or so. 55000 rpm at 6400 engine rpm. that motor meth and e85 should have cool enouph intake temps to spin the dog flop out of it.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:20 PM   #30
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I totally understand your desire to go YSi and make 800+.

As mentioned, 600+ rwhp is plenty, it's almost gotten me into trouble already, going sideways at 60mph. It's a disease I guess, I dunno. But it's not so bad really

I also want to go YSi next year. I have 205cc CNC'd trick flows. They were 170's that I sent to TEA. However, if I were to do it again, I would have sold the 170's and bought a brand new pair of 205's. Just too much hassle and surprises sending in a used pair of heads.

Plan is to eventually pick up a complete YSi pass side kit, a Big Stuff 3 and 120 LB injectors from Kurgan. My 80's are at 98% duty cycle at 617rwhp. This is with e85 and meth. It's going to cost a lot more than just the blower to go YSi. You're talking $6k plus.

Matt (Vorteched88GT) made 845 rwhp with a YSi and basic 363 setup. This was out here on the dyno when Kurgan was tuning.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:14 PM   #31
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I totally understand your desire to go YSi and make 800+.

As mentioned, 600+ rwhp is plenty, it's almost gotten me into trouble already, going sideways at 60mph. It's a disease I guess, I dunno. But it's not so bad really

I also want to go YSi next year. I have 205cc CNC'd trick flows. They were 170's that I sent to TEA. However, if I were to do it again, I would have sold the 170's and bought a brand new pair of 205's. Just too much hassle and surprises sending in a used pair of heads.

Plan is to eventually pick up a complete YSi pass side kit, a Big Stuff 3 and 120 LB injectors from Kurgan. My 80's are at 98% duty cycle at 617rwhp. This is with e85 and meth. It's going to cost a lot more than just the blower to go YSi. You're talking $6k plus.

Matt (Vorteched88GT) made 845 rwhp with a YSi and basic 363 setup. This was out here on the dyno when Kurgan was tuning.
hmmmm i dont think my 80's were that high of a percent. ill check this spring with my retune
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:57 PM   #32
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I totally understand your desire to go YSi and make 800+.

As mentioned, 600+ rwhp is plenty, it's almost gotten me into trouble already, going sideways at 60mph. It's a disease I guess, I dunno. But it's not so bad really

I also want to go YSi next year. I have 205cc CNC'd trick flows. They were 170's that I sent to TEA. However, if I were to do it again, I would have sold the 170's and bought a brand new pair of 205's. Just too much hassle and surprises sending in a used pair of heads.

Plan is to eventually pick up a complete YSi pass side kit, a Big Stuff 3 and 120 LB injectors from Kurgan. My 80's are at 98% duty cycle at 617rwhp. This is with e85 and meth. It's going to cost a lot more than just the blower to go YSi. You're talking $6k plus.

Matt (Vorteched88GT) made 845 rwhp with a YSi and basic 363 setup. This was out here on the dyno when Kurgan was tuning.
Yeah, we are in the same boat. My injectors hit 100% on my tune with Mr Freeze in use but it was all the way at 6500rpm. I am hoping Snow alleviates that some, but I may have to go to larger injectors and drivers. I did not want to use drivers or I would have went bigger to begin with. If & when I change heads, I am leaning toward new, just cuz it is easier. But alas, I think I am going to hold off not only to appease the wife, but to have less car work on myself this offseason. I already am installing the 6 speed and may be forced to do the injectors cuz not gonna leave duty cycle that high.
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:59 PM   #33
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Why do you want to "tune" it again? Didn't you have Mike Post tune it this last summer.
I want Kurgan to tune it. Just to see the difference not only in end result but how they go about it. In the end, I plan to be tuning my own car........so the more tuners I can observe, the better.
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:02 PM   #34
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What pulleys are you running

i would change pulleys befor the next tune and have a street serp. tune and a cog tune for the track there is still more HP to be had out of that blower and head combo. imo

i still have those 72x29 35mm cogs in the parts cave you can try. should be good to 21 psi or so. 55000 rpm at 6400 engine rpm. that motor meth and e85 should have cool enouph intake temps to spin the dog flop out of it.
I am seeing 18-20lbs now. 8" lower & 3.15 upper. 56k @ 6500rpm. I was seeing 18 on the dyno with a bit of slip up top. Added the AFM tensioner after that so think I will see 20 now, but have not pushed it far enough to know.
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:05 PM   #35
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hmmmm i dont think my 80's were that high of a percent. ill check this spring with my retune
My 80's were definitely that high (click pic to start video and watch fuel %):


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