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Old 08-12-2008, 11:39 PM   #1
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What happens if i disconnect the O2 sensors?

I have an A-trim, stock block, heads and cam, cobra intake and 24lbs. What would happen if I disconnected the O2 sensors? How would the car behave?
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Old 08-13-2008, 01:16 AM   #2
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the car self explodes!!!!!


whhooooooooooo,,,,,,,I love these questions.

Iam gonna see how how it runs when I pull out a couple of spark plugs while it is running.
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Old 08-13-2008, 09:54 AM   #3
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Nice answer.....I will leave it alone...

Anyway, The O2 sensors were disconnected because the car was running lean on the dyno. As soon as we disconnected them the car richened up and gave me 350 at the rear wheels. The car now feels a little down on power on the bottom end. What is typically the effects of disconnecting them?
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Old 08-13-2008, 02:43 PM   #4
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Lots of people have had success tuning Mustangs with the O2's off, then put back on after the A/F was dialed in. In fact, a great way to tune with the Anderson PMS uses a variation of this method, but I'm not sure if leaving them off is a good idea, I've never tried it.

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Old 08-13-2008, 03:55 PM   #5
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Garage
I have run them with and with out. Just make sure you air fuel ratio is in check.
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Old 08-13-2008, 04:23 PM   #6
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Well thats what I am wondering. When you ran without them did you feel a difference on the low end power?
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Old 08-13-2008, 05:29 PM   #7
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disconnecting the 02s should make NO DIFFERENCE to your WOT performance.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyin_hawaiin View Post
disconnecting the 02s should make NO DIFFERENCE to your WOT performance.

PRINGLE TIME!!!


nj302pny............I suggest whomever you have taken your car to, that you quickly remove it from their posession..
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:44 PM   #9
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PRINGLE TIME!!!


nj302pny............I suggest whomever you have taken your car to, that you quickly remove it from their posession..
WHAT???????????????? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? If you are not of assistance then please go build a model car in your room and talk to it, I'm sure it will listen.

The car is not in anyones possession. The car was on the dyno at Big Daddy Performance. He is very well aware of how to dyno a car. Especially a simple combo like mine. The car has been running great....until the last two times out. The car would quite easily break the tires loose from a roll and would do that for three gears. Well now the car has a hard time spinning a tire at all. I have changed nothing. The check engine light is on and I am curious to know if my computer is playing fuel games on me because I disconnected the O2 sensors
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Old 08-13-2008, 10:51 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
WHAT???????????????? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? If you are not of assistance then please go build a model car in your room and talk to it, I'm sure it will listen.

The car is not in anyones possession. The car was on the dyno at Big Daddy Performance. He is very well aware of how to dyno a car. Especially a simple combo like mine. The car has been running great....until the last two times out. The car would quite easily break the tires loose from a roll and would do that for three gears. Well now the car has a hard time spinning a tire at all. I have changed nothing. The check engine light is on and I am curious to know if my computer is playing fuel games on me because I disconnected the O2 sensors
02 sensors primary job is to correct a/f as a narrowband sensor to stoich at idle and part throttle. Once you go WOT, they are ignored and play no part in the performance of your vehicle. If a car is properly tuned (read: stft within 5%), the 02 sensors are basically along for the ride at idle and PT as well.. I know alot of tuners who will purposely turn off closed loop on eec4 cars because most have major exhaust leaks etc and closed loop will be all jacked up (for lack of a more technical term).
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:22 PM   #11
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flyin, your explanation is understood. Thank you. I will start looking for the loss of power elsewhere. Its got to be there....
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
WHAT???????????????? ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? If you are not of assistance then please go build a model car in your room and talk to it, I'm sure it will listen.

The car is not in anyones possession. The car was on the dyno at Big Daddy Performance. He is very well aware of how to dyno a car. Especially a simple combo like mine. The car has been running great....until the last two times out. The car would quite easily break the tires loose from a roll and would do that for three gears. Well now the car has a hard time spinning a tire at all. I have changed nothing. The check engine light is on and I am curious to know if my computer is playing fuel games on me because I disconnected the O2 sensors

What the *&ck ARE YOu talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Disconnect O2 sensors to make it run better..... I was trying to save you the *&cking embarrasment that you seem to be, but you decide to validate that crap talk about your tuner???? You for real???


There is no tech in the world that is going to help you...........maybe buy a carb and call it even..........
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indy2000 View Post
the car self explodes!!!!!


whhooooooooooo,,,,,,,I love these questions.

Iam gonna see how how it runs when I pull out a couple of spark plugs while it is running.
indy2000 what did you expect the original poster to reply with after the above comment? Not everyone can "read" sarcasm (at least I think that's what you were trying to convey here) in these posts, so why bother messing with the dude if you can't be helpful? There's a member here who does the same crap on a daily basis, StangPlus2Birds (don't know the exact spelling), who despite knowing probably as much as anyone in the site can rarely say anything constructive without busting balls or taking people to task because they don't seem to know as much as he does for no reason. Please don't turn into another one of him, why not just ignore posts like this if it's a ridiculous question...yeah it was a dumb question, but not everyone knows everything, that's why they post questions on here. I've learned more than I could ever imagine about my car from this site, and I'm sure I still don't know squat, but what I have learned was because people would reply to my posts even though the questions were dumb as hell more often than not.

NJ302PONY, read what "flyin_hawaiin" writes carefully and keep in mind that he knows what he is talking about because he happens to tune these cars for a living, and doesn't get involved in the ball busting that other members seem to enjoy. I hope you sort out your issues.

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Old 08-14-2008, 12:32 AM   #14
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When this question could have been answered using the search function, I have no problem telling it as I see it.

If the poster had made a valid attempt in justifying his reasoning with regards to deleting the O2 sensors I may have been a little less sarcastic.

But he wasn't so I am NOT.

Please don't try to preach about turning into some other poster here. We all post to help each other but when others don't attempt to use the wealth of info here, then they must be treated as the infant that they portray to be.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:29 AM   #15
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Indy....why dont you use the search function and find the specific answer to that specific question. I did search and couldnt find it. All combinations are different and respond as such. If I was unclear on the original question then you had two choices, either go about your business and dont answer or type in three words....MORE INFO NEEDED.

Second....Big Daddy Performance ( Outrageous Mustangs) Dwayne Gutridge has gone faster in a mustang then 99.9 of the mustang universe. If he unplugs my O2 sensors then I guess he has good reasons.

Third.....I am not available to go out and test drive and diagnose my car every day, whenever I want. That is why the forum is a nice tool. I can take ten minutes from a busy day and either get some mustang help or give some.

Fourth......If the question bothered you that much why would you waste your time. Keep your vast knowledge of mustangs to yourself. I can tell you that I will never be like that with a poster. It is not productive!

To those who spent two-three minutes helping me THANK YOU
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:06 AM   #16
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Something to keep in mind is that while disabling the 02’s altogether may be fine for WOT and track duty….it is not always fine for the street. IMHO, it’s done far too often by many reputable tuners and can hurt daily drivability. While some people may not notice it…others certainly do. Now the reason behind many tuners doing this is beyond me. Perhaps it’s a “quick fix” that get’s people in and out of the dyno in a quick fashion…or perhaps it’s beyond their tuning ability. Either way, you are disabling one of the huge benefits of using the stock computer and it’s adaptive strategy.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #17
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Something to keep in mind is that while disabling the 02’s altogether may be fine for WOT and track duty….it is not always fine for the street. IMHO, it’s done far too often by many reputable tuners and can hurt daily drivability. While some people may not notice it…others certainly do. Now the reason behind many tuners doing this is beyond me. Perhaps it’s a “quick fix” that get’s people in and out of the dyno in a quick fashion…or perhaps it’s beyond their tuning ability. Either way, you are disabling one of the huge benefits of using the stock computer and it’s adaptive strategy.
if STFT are setup properly, 02s are not needed.. I DONT remove or disable them, but i know of ALOT of respected tuners that do. As i stated in my post above, most do it because these cars are 15-20+ yrs old and their exhaust systems ahve been removed and changed 500 times resulting in bad exhaust leaks.. the most minute exhaust leak can play havoc with closed loop and screw up adaptive.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:04 AM   #18
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Quote:
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When this question could have been answered using the search function, I have no problem telling it as I see it.

If the poster had made a valid attempt in justifying his reasoning with regards to deleting the O2 sensors I may have been a little less sarcastic.

But he wasn't so I am NOT.

Please don't try to preach about turning into some other poster here. We all post to help each other but when others don't attempt to use the wealth of info here, then they must be treated as the infant that they portray to be.
My bad, I didn't realize you were a moderator of this board!

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Old 08-14-2008, 11:10 AM   #19
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Something to keep in mind is that while disabling the 02’s altogether may be fine for WOT and track duty….it is not always fine for the street. IMHO, it’s done far too often by many reputable tuners and can hurt daily drivability. While some people may not notice it…others certainly do. Now the reason behind many tuners doing this is beyond me. Perhaps it’s a “quick fix” that get’s people in and out of the dyno in a quick fashion…or perhaps it’s beyond their tuning ability. Either way, you are disabling one of the huge benefits of using the stock computer and it’s adaptive strategy.
The adaptive strategy of these processors is a pan in the balls for some, particularly those who see plenty of track duty, but I can see if the car is driven daily on the street it could be a concern. One of the reasons I for one stopped using the "band aid" PMS was because the car would fight the changes I made because of the adaptive strategy and I didn't take the time to tune the car so it was always in stand alone mode like some PMS users have done. This is where the tweecer, etc. come in handy I guess.

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Old 08-14-2008, 11:12 AM   #20
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I have an A-trim, stock block, heads and cam, cobra intake and 24lbs. What would happen if I disconnected the O2 sensors? How would the car behave?
As several have specified loss of idle and parts throttle quality. 02s should be replaced every 30 -40 k as they tend to slow down with age. Every fresh motor at the shop gets new 02s unless the car has less than 20 k and hasn't been abused.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:19 AM   #21
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if STFT are setup properly, 02s are not needed.. I DONT remove or disable them, but i know of ALOT of respected tuners that do. As i stated in my post above, most do it because these cars are 15-20+ yrs old and their exhaust systems ahve been removed and changed 500 times resulting in bad exhaust leaks.. the most minute exhaust leak can play havoc with closed loop and screw up adaptive.
Understood…however, even with a perfectly setup combo 02’s would still improve drivability (assuming exhaust leaks are in check). The problem is…you are tuning the car for those particular conditions. Changes in temperature, air pressure, air density, air humidity, fuel etc. all can and will cause changes in the tune. While I understand that input will still be had from other various sensors….the computers inability to correct for stoich is still going to be detrimental to daily drivability.

Ignoring these factors and simply disabling 02 just seems like the cheap and easy way out IMHO….and these high end tuners should have the ability to retain them in their tune.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:30 AM   #22
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Wow, last of terrible opinions on tuning here. Don't take my word for it but go to a tuner and audit the process. The backyard mech. opinions will go away about tuning. Speaking from experience the only 02s that can be disabled are the rear 02s on OBDII vehicles as hey are emission only. Even full out race vehicles running 9s and 8s leave their 02 enabled. The strategy is set up to interprit signal from 02s on both banks. Disabling and running in Open Loop is just a bandaid that inconsistant and typically uneconomical in the long run. Don't risk damaging a motor...I know Don Lasota is lurking around here as her has a steller reputation on this. He wasd involved in authoring the SCT dealer training manual.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:47 AM   #23
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Quote:
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Wow, last of terrible opinions on tuning here. Don't take my word for it but go to a tuner and audit the process. The backyard mech. opinions will go away about tuning. Speaking from experience the only 02s that can be disabled are the rear 02s on OBDII vehicles as hey are emission only. Even full out race vehicles running 9s and 8s leave their 02 enabled. The strategy is set up to interprit signal from 02s on both banks. Disabling and running in Open Loop is just a bandaid that inconsistant and typically uneconomical in the long run. Don't risk damaging a motor...I know Don Lasota is lurking around here as her has a steller reputation on this. He wasd involved in authoring the SCT dealer training manual.
Take a look at this thread in another tuning site- http://www.stangtuning.com/showthread.php?t=3429

Disabling the O2 sensors for tuning purposes is a tried and true method that has shown results in many of these setups. I'm not sure if there is confusion here about leaving them disabled- I'm NOT advocating that at all, but if you read this other thread you will see why some tuners disconnect them, dial in the A/F, then RECONNECT them.

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Old 08-14-2008, 12:05 PM   #24
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If someone reads that hasn't not tunned professionally or is a DIYr they will be misled. 02 trasnport delay is important in cases of turbos and long tube header setups. Still primary 02s are not to be diabled, the adaptive strategy gets disabled. Narrow band 02s are essential for Idle and prt throttle quality. Also setting the ammount of adaptive allowed will help things out (decreasing). Alot of incorrect information out there. If the 02s are disconnected to tune when the their plugged back in the tune will be off. This is why forums occasionally can be bad. Oh by the way if no 02s exist and the MAF fails or peaks 5v the ECM goes to failed maf mode requiring tuning of the failed maf table which runs off of 02s, say bye bye to the blower car engines under WOT.
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:10 PM   #25
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i have to 02s turned off in my car and it runs fine on the street and track...decent fuel milage....like they said as long as your tune is in check you should be good to go
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:18 PM   #26
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i have to 02s turned off in my car and it runs fine on the street and track...decent fuel milage....like they said as long as your tune is in check you should be good to go


I never said it couldn't be but rather it shouldn't; my point is this... even if you have a wideband meter when/if the maf fails or peaks you have no safety net = kaboom. By the time the wideband reads lean, it's typically too late. I know Chris Johnson (SCT) has done crazy things in tunes for track only cares and thats the risk of a race car not street car.
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:38 PM   #27
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Yes, but I do not have a tune. I use the stock computer for everything. Except the extra fuel my FMU puts out. I spend all of my time on the street.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:05 PM   #28
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Ugh, FMUs overdrive injectors (not a good thing) and I know these units come with typical blower kits. Granted under 5 pounds of boost stock time on an A9L can be used. Without sounded too bias I would recomend getting your ca tuned, really straightens out the power curve also niot to mention makes things much safer and faster.
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Old 08-14-2008, 01:41 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
Yes, but I do not have a tune. I use the stock computer for everything. Except the extra fuel my FMU puts out. I spend all of my time on the street.
Apparently you didn't ask a dumb question because you've generated some good info on 02's. You dynoed your car but didn't burn a chip? How come? A chip tune may be what you need.
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:04 PM   #30
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Apparently you didn't ask a dumb question because you've generated some good info on 02's. You dynoed your car but didn't burn a chip? How come? A chip tune may be what you need.
Here is the breakdown on my car.
Stock Block, heads and cam
Cobra Intake w/ 24's
65 MM TB
FMU set at 12:1
A-trim with 2.87 upper pulley (8lbs at 5500)
1 3/4 equal lengths, H-pipe and Flows
The car was run first with the O2's connected. Even with the FMU at 12:1 it was lean. When we unplugged the O2's the car ran 12:1 exact.
Dyno was stopped at 5500 and the car made 348 hp and 363 tq.
Dwayne felt that given it was such a limited combo that I would be better off for drivability to just let it run off the stock computer. When I decide to get serious with the parts then I should go further with the tuning.

Really...how much more power could I see with those parts. It really is still "almost stock".

I did not have a check engine light for some time. The car was really strong. Helpless through three gears. I do have the check engine light now and a noticable loss in low end power (almost no tire spin even dropping the hammer at 3500-4000 where the peak of my torque is) Thats why I was curious about the O2's. Could the check engine be limiting the amount of fuel I was getting? The ONLY change I have done to the car is add a bottle of Chevron Fuel Sytem Cleaner to the gas.

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Old 08-14-2008, 02:22 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
Here is the breakdown on my car.
Stock Block, heads and cam
Cobra Intake w/ 24's
65 MM TB
FMU set at 12:1
A-trim with 2.87 upper pulley (8lbs at 5500)
1 3/4 equal lengths, H-pipe and Flows
The car was run first with the O2's connected. Even with the FMU at 12:1 it was lean. When we unplugged the O2's the car ran 12:1 exact.
Dyno was stopped at 5500 and the car made 348 hp and 363 tq.
Dwayne felt that given it was such a limited combo that I would be better off for drivability to just let it run off the stock computer. When I decide to get serious with the parts then I should go further with the tuning.

Really...how much more power could I see with those parts. It really is still "almost stock".

I did not have a check engine light for some time. The car was really strong. Helpless through three gears. I do have the check engine light now and a noticable loss in low end power (almost no tire spin even dropping the hammer at 3500-4000 where the peak of my torque is) Thats why I was curious about the O2's. Could the check engine be limiting the amount of fuel I was getting? The ONLY change I have done to the car is add a bottle of Chevron Fuel Sytem Cleaner to the gas.
Even 12:1 is still a little unsafe (is kind of tollerable but not recomended) with today garbade grad fuel at the pump, (ethanol addative). The computer went into limp mode dumping in it's mind dumping fuel but has no clue the engine is seeing more than 100% load wheni n actuallity maky be seeing 160 -180 %. Typically if the computer has to compensate that much it's past set parameters and tips the $$ light. If you still want control over your tune there several options including a twEECer. See if any of your friends have one and borrow it for a couple days...if you need some help let me know. BTW what were the codes?
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
Here is the breakdown on my car.
Stock Block, heads and cam
Cobra Intake w/ 24's
65 MM TB
FMU set at 12:1
A-trim with 2.87 upper pulley (8lbs at 5500)
1 3/4 equal lengths, H-pipe and Flows
The car was run first with the O2's connected. Even with the FMU at 12:1 it was lean. When we unplugged the O2's the car ran 12:1 exact.
Dyno was stopped at 5500 and the car made 348 hp and 363 tq.
Dwayne felt that given it was such a limited combo that I would be better off for drivability to just let it run off the stock computer. When I decide to get serious with the parts then I should go further with the tuning.

Really...how much more power could I see with those parts. It really is still "almost stock".

I did not have a check engine light for some time. The car was really strong. Helpless through three gears. I do have the check engine light now and a noticable loss in low end power (almost no tire spin even dropping the hammer at 3500-4000 where the peak of my torque is) Thats why I was curious about the O2's. Could the check engine be limiting the amount of fuel I was getting? The ONLY change I have done to the car is add a bottle of Chevron Fuel Sytem Cleaner to the gas.
Look at my sig. Our combos are quite similar. Before the tune, my car ran great and the a/f was perfect across the board. With the tune I gained another 11 hp and 25 tq by leaning it out some which may be more than I like. I have an S trim now and need to go back for a tune. I probably would have been fine without a tune but feel better with it. A tune may or may not solve your problem but it can't hurt either. I can't personally answer your question about your 02's as I am reading this with interest. Have you tried pulling codes?
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Old 08-14-2008, 02:29 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 89shockstang View Post
Look at my sig. Our combos are quite similar. Before the tune, my car ran great and the a/f was perfect across the board. With the tune I gained another 11 hp and 25 tq by leaning it out some which may be more than I like. I have an S trim now and need to go back for a tune. I probably would have been fine without a tune but feel better with it. A tune may or may not solve your problem but it can't hurt either. I can't personally answer your question about your 02's as I am reading this with interest. Have you tried pulling codes?

Did you compare average TQ and HP through the entire curve...usually a big difference vs the peak numbers. Example my own stang gained 100+FT pounds between 2000 and 4000 RPM and went from 220 RWHP at 2700 to 309 RWHP on the mustangdyne with a tune.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:20 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ302PONY View Post
I have an A-trim, stock block, heads and cam, cobra intake and 24lbs. What would happen if I disconnected the O2 sensors? How would the car behave?
Anybody yet answer this question.......besides me?

ya'll just go on about about WOT, idle etc.

BTW .......STFT will always be changing, due to engine, sensor, actuator etc wear.

To think that once kamrf are 0 that you don't need O2 sensors would be incorrect and probably why no one does it.
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Old 08-14-2008, 08:57 PM   #35
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Anybody yet answer this question.......besides me?

ya'll just go on about about WOT, idle etc.

BTW .......STFT will always be changing, due to engine, sensor, actuator etc wear.

To think that once kamrf are 0 that you don't O2 sensors would be incorrect and probably why no one does it.
This could go in circles for days, but quite honestly I don't see where even you answered the original question- the car would not "self explode" as you put it, and I know you were kidding, but after that knee slapper when did YOU answer the question? I believe it was how would the car behave, not should they do it or not, so please share the answer with the rest of the class so we can take our naps.

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