Wrap around Bilstein Break TOO!

[Blown331fox]

I just had pair of wrap around Bilsteins sent to me for reinforcment work. The owner has two pair, BOTH SETS with cracks in the welds, and BOTH noticably bent. The car is a 03 cobra used for auto x, the owner will chime in soon with the specs on the car, but as far as I know its fairly stock. I was tasked with repairing the cracked welds, trying to straighten out the ears, and reinforcing the ears. A lot of guys seem to think this style is stronger then the weld on ear style, but please dont fall victim to that thought as well. Save your time and money, dont go out and buy wrap around style struts thinking its the final solution to a problem that no one saw coming. I dont have any before shots of the cracked welds, but the owner has high detail pics that he will soon post. Here are some pics.

[nate79]

Damn. I thought I was the hero for a second...oh well

Those look very nice btw. Rounded edges make a big difference. They should work very well too

*edit*

Just thought of something, the o3/o4 struts provide a thicker surface to weld too...so there is an advantage in using them.

[2k2GT]

I'm gonna keep an eye on my MM Sport units...

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by nate79

Damn. I thought I was the hero for a second...oh well

Those look very nice btw. Rounded edges make a big difference. They should work very well too

*edit*

Just thought of something, the o3/o4 struts provide a thicker surface to weld too...so there is an advantage in using them.

I agree, the inside of his didnt get nearly as hot as mine did when welding.

[white_2kgt]

oh look, someone found out what a chamfer is! However still miss the point of a 'clamping load'.

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by white_2kgt

oh look, someone found out what a chamfer is! However still miss the point of a 'clamping load'.

The clamping load still exists, I took some measurments before and after bolts installed. Metal stretches.

And thats not a chamfer, check your dictionary.

Whats your fix?

[MustangTurboCoupe]

Hmm, I'm no engineer (well not a mechanical engineer) but why not use a heavier plate that covers the ears and extends up higher on the housing, and put a gusset between them....I'd imagine that would distribute the load over a wider area, and resist the twisting of the ears due to the extra material.

Those welds done with a mig?

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by MustangTurboCoupe

Hmm, I'm no engineer (well not a mechanical engineer) but why not use a heavier plate that covers the ears and extends up higher on the housing, and put a gusset between them....I'd imagine that would distribute the load over a wider area, and resist the twisting of the ears due to the extra material.

Those welds done with a mig?

Can you sketch a pic of what your idea is, its kinda foggy.

correct, miller mig, notice the slop.

[Turbo 5.0 Mike]

Do they come in any color besides Big Bird Yellow?

[2k2GT]

I think all Bilstein's are yellow.

[WJL]

This is another brand of strut, just an example.



Center channel is a big plus I think.

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by WJL

This is another brand of strut, just an example.



Center channel is a big plus I think.

Adding a center channel would be nice, but diffucult. You cant put it in the inside because the spindle will no longer fit.

Any color you like, but bilsteins are yellow, so i kept that theme.

[Blown331fox]

Turbomike, I got your pm, if you can get me some rainbow paint, Ill spray them.

[onesillynotch]

turbo mike..thier is a face i havent seen in a while..still got the dark GT?..i know blue trash was last seen being sold on a used car lot

[Oktavius]

Originally Posted by MustangTurboCoupe

Hmm, I'm no engineer (well not a mechanical engineer) but why not use a heavier plate that covers the ears and extends up higher on the housing, and put a gusset between them....I'd imagine that would distribute the load over a wider area, and resist the twisting of the ears due to the extra material.

Those welds done with a mig?

Going higher up on the strut body wouldnt work for those using coil-overs.

[Oktavius]

Originally Posted by Blown331fox

Adding a center channel would be nice, but diffucult. You cant put it in the inside because the spindle will no longer fit.

Any color you like, but bilsteins are yellow, so i kept that theme.

What about relocating (cut and weld) the tabs to allow room for the channel?

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by Oktavius

What about relocating (cut and weld) the tabs to allow room for the channel?

The channel would have to be the width of the spindle ear. At that point, welding the ear back on would only be good for locating the new holes, as I dont think they would be adding strength.

[Turbo 5.0 Mike]

Originally Posted by onesillynotch

turbo mike..thier is a face i havent seen in a while..still got the dark GT?..i know blue trash was last seen being sold on a used car lot

No, no more Mustangs for me. I am a fancy man now. You can find me at the nearby roadcourses beating up on the local Saleen guys.

[MustangTurboCoupe]

Originally Posted by Oktavius

Going higher up on the strut body wouldnt work for those using coil-overs.

yup, that's true... Could clearance the coilover a bit depending on how much reinfiorcement is needed to keep the strut intact... I'm glad I don't have to deal with mac struts

Originally Posted by Blown331Fox

Can you sketch a pic of what your idea is, its kinda foggy.

correct, miller mig, notice the slop.

Yeah, I noticed on a few of the beads...

Here's a very crude pic....Red obviously is the modification.

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by Turbo 5.0 Mike

No, no more Mustangs for me. I am a fancy man now. You can find me at the nearby roadcourses beating up on the local Saleen guys.

Here he is at the track..

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5401410ae1.htm

[88Brawler]

Lots of interesting ideas here, but personally I'd wait for Blistein/MM to address it.

Without knowing the exact loading condition that is triggering the failures, throwing reinforcements at it where they aren't needed doesn't gain anything but adds more mass and the potential to screw up the strut body. What measurements were taken pre/post welding to determine if the tube has maintained its design spec for the bore (roundness and diameter)?

And with respect to clamp load, I'd be real cautious about gusseting the hell out of it and then creating a stress concentration at the fastener locations. A part that is uniformly loaded has a higher probability of survival that one that point-loaded...given the same load input. Yes, I know the entire ear of the spindle is trapped, but still I'd watch it.

MustangTurboCoupe: Adding gussets that run the length of the strut body (upward from the spindle mounting ears if you will) doesn't work for us coilover guys. Not to mention it adds very little strength. You might be able to trim the threaded sleeve a bit if you run short enough springs (8" or maybe 10" - would be close). Still, I don't think there's much merit in adding any gusset along that axis.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't have the answers, but boasting because you were the first to do something doesn't mean much if you've toasted a set of struts or created a different failure mode. Time will tell I guess.

By the way, a buddy of mine runs about 12-15 events/ season and has Tokico Illuminas that are approx. 4 or 5 years old and his are not bent. His car is 3350#, puts down 430hp or so to the wheels, and he runs 275s (race tires) all around, 2000R Brembos, and is usually one of the fastest cars at the events he attends.

I'm not knocking Bilsteins, but clearly their spindle mounting ears are questionable under certain circumstances.

Good luck to everyone who's running them.

[nate79]

Originally Posted by Blown331fox

Here he is at the track..

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/d...5401410ae1.htm

damn...that mustang pulled away hard from that viper

any info on the mustang? would like to know what type of suspension its got...

[Blown331fox]

Originally Posted by nate79

damn...that mustang pulled away hard from that viper

any info on the mustang? would like to know what type of suspension its got...

Thats my car. Stock saleen suspension in the vid. Full MM suspension now.

[nate79]

Originally Posted by Blown331fox

Thats my car. Stock saleen suspension in the vid. Full MM suspension now.

wow, nice car man

[Turbo 5.0 Mike]

Originally Posted by nate79

damn...that mustang pulled away hard from that viper

any info on the mustang? would like to know what type of suspension its got...

It's not that fast, I was looking for a good radio station, that's the only reason the Saleen got by me. I lapped him a few minutes later, but the battery on my camera died.

[white_2kgt]

Originally Posted by Blown331fox

And thats not a chamfer, check your dictionary.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chamfer
cham·fer (chmfr)
tr.v. cham·fered, cham·fer·ing, cham·fers
1. To cut off the edge or corner of; bevel.
2. To cut a groove in; flute.

Originally Posted by Blown331fox

Whats your fix?

MM currently has the one set of struts that I have which are bent. I'm waiting for them to send me back a properly engineered, tested and repaired set, not a Granatelli engineered set. I ran those HD's for 3 years w/o (serious) problem, I can wait a few more months, now that I know what to look for, I can check them between runs to see if anythings bending.

Can you post pics of the 03/04 strut that was bent prior to you welding on it?

[WJL]

I do give you a A for effort but I would like to know the following
Questions:
How did you decide:
What thickness of material to use?
What material to use? (cold rolled, hot rolled ect)
What grade of material to use?
Type of welding (tig, mig, stick)?
Where to place the the brackets?
The size of brackets?
Affect on strut body after the install?
Long term results, fatigue, cyclic ability, durability, ect?
Safety, liability?

These are all things that need to be considered when modifying/engineering a design such as this, especilly when you are now doing it for someone else.

[BRGT350]

are these failures on cars with coil-overs, are some failing with conventional springs?

[white_2kgt]

Originally Posted by BRGT350

are these failures on cars with coil-overs, are some failing with conventional springs?

So far I've only heard of them failing on Coilover only cars. MM doesn't seem to think the coilovers have anything to do with it though (well at least as of early last week).

[Scot_94GT]

Originally Posted by WJL

This is another brand of strut, just an example.



Center channel is a big plus I think.

Which brand is that?

[WJL]

Tokico

[carrew]

If you go to cc.com mm did a test and found the problem. Basically if you 275 or larger tires, bigger than stock pbr calipers, and race compond tires.

[white_2kgt]

Originally Posted by carrew

If you go to cc.com mm did a test and found the problem. Basically if you 275 or larger tires, bigger than stock pbr calipers, and race compond tires.

MM didn't 'find' that to be the problem, that was just the common configuration people were running that reported the issue, and for what it's worth, I bent mine using 13" PBR's and stock 01 cobra HP on RA1's.

This thread title should be changed, so far none of them have 'broke' they have just bent. Had mine 'broke' we'd be having a vastly different conversation.

[carrew]

Yes but you were on RA1's were are a race spec tire that provides higher braking force. Which meets their findings, it said nothing about HP.

The interesting part was testing all the kinds band-aid bracing people were talking about and none of them did more 1% additional help. Its cool to see factual findings instead theory.

[white_2kgt]

Originally Posted by carrew

Yes but you were on RA1's were are a race spec tire that provides higher braking force. Which meets their findings, it said nothing about HP.

I was just throwing that in there for completeness and to show that stock PBR's can cause this as well.

Originally Posted by carrew

The interesting part was testing all the kinds band-aid bracing people were talking about and none of them did more 1% additional help. Its cool to see factual findings instead theory.

Agreed. Nice to see someone who takes the times to think a problem through then test it before grabbing the welder.