Corral

marked for life · 10-23-2009, 07:18 PM

Unshrouding the valve by the bigger bore will make more power but does anyone know how much? I have the afr 165 competition heads now and am sticking with them because i'm stuck with the ported lower intake setup on this Kennebell and need the 1.200 by 2.00 inch intake port so I cant sell to upgrade my heads. The Kennebell has the stock setup discharge manifold so what gains since i am building a new dart shortblock?

Stitch · 10-23-2009, 07:42 PM

If all you are doing is changing the bore I would sway 20HP.

marked for life · 10-23-2009, 07:48 PM

Thanks Stitch, any low end torque estimates?

MurPHy4570 · 10-23-2009, 08:15 PM

Torque and static compression ratio will increase, if all other factors remain the same.

Cobra427 · 10-23-2009, 09:58 PM

Not enough to justify the hastle.

PGreenSVT · 10-23-2009, 11:20 PM

Seems to me that with his initial caveat "same cubic inches" he would have to use a shorter stroke so I think that should pull some of the torque.

marked for life · 10-24-2009, 12:55 AM

Yes I would agree PGreenSVT, the comparision is 3.25/4.125 vs 3.40/4.030 which would mean longer piston hang time equals longer filling (3.40) verse
giving the air a cleaner shot into the cylinder. If going for a strong mid
(3000 to 5000 rpm) which would you choose? A 363ci would probably flatline
above 5000 rpm with the restrictive Kennebells intake manifold and comp AFR 165's. Not sure though. Thanks for the replies, I really want to make a decision soon, this stuff is driving me crazy.

PGreenSVT · 10-24-2009, 11:35 AM

For sure with a 363 I would ditch the AFR 165's in favor of something that can flow more. That KB is going to hold you back too being designed for a basic bolt on 302 motor. I know it a bitch when you already have those things but you got them to match up with a 306 not a 363 or even a 347 for that matter. You'd have plenty of torque with a 363 and it might be time to consider a Centrifugal if you are stuck on a blower car. I'd be looking to a turbo for a power adder if it was me but alas...I'm an NA die hard.

r.barn · 10-24-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marked for life

A 363ci would probably flatline
above 5000 rpm with the restrictive Kennebells intake manifold and comp AFR 165's. Not sure though. Thanks for the replies, I really want to make a decision soon, this stuff is driving me crazy.

Could always sell the Kenne Bell and do a Whipple Windsor like I've been
cooking up in my head lately.

Dart 363 with TEA ported TFS High Ports, Super Vic EFI intake, 1 7/8 LT's
with Whipple 3.3 mounted on driver side valve cover similar to where the
Kenne Bell kit puts it. Then discharge pipe thru wheel wells to 3.5" vertical flow
intercooler.

Would just have to machine intake and discharge plenums and mounting
brackets.

Would end up looking similar to what 92rohcp just did with his air/air cooled KB mod.
but with a gigantic Whipple.

800-1000rwhp Whipple Windsor

Kato Engineering · 10-24-2009, 02:11 PM

what is wrong with going to the 4.125 bore AND keeping the 3.400" stroke...???

get rid of the restrictive intake and K-B setup....!!!!

marked for life · 10-24-2009, 10:47 PM

I've listened to alot of centri blowers on you tube and even the
vortech sq blowers are really noisy at idle, don't know if i could deal
with that whinning on my daily driver since i have 6000.00 dollars
worth of audio and enjoy the extreme interior quiteness of my Lincoln.
I could barely hear the motor with my setup, well that is until i installed aluminum heads and diffferent cam. I'm an audiofile purist at heart and hate
the outside noise. This setup made 480 rwtq thru an aod at 3300 rpm.
ANY GUESS ON TQ AND MID POWER WITH THE 363/E85/15LB/165 heads. I
got nitrous to take care of the top side. Turbos are just to much work since
there is no bolt on kit for a lincoln. The whipple setup seems like a ton of work too. KATO you say a 363 could give me all the torque i want, how much
and where in the band? N/A is not off the table. Thanks gentlemen for your time...

1991vert · 10-25-2009, 01:25 PM

IMO, waste of time/money on that setup. you have bottleneck after bottleneck. if you invested in a dart block, might as well build it right. benefits will not outweight the cost on this one. bigger bore will need bigger pistons ($$$), if you want to keep the same cubic inches, you will need the correect rod ($$$), etc. i see no benefit to unshrouding the valves if you are set on keeping those heads and blower.

Kato Engineering · 10-25-2009, 03:06 PM

YUP,

eventually he will have to give up something... one thing or another...

first would be to give up the "rap noise" thru the speakers.

eventually the overall setup will have to be made more towards overall engine power , rather than all these combined compromises.

89-347-LX · 10-25-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kato Engineering

YUP,

eventually he will have to give up something... one thing or another...

first would be to give up the "rap noise" thru the speakers.

eventually the overall setup will have to be made more towards overall engine power , rather than all these combined compromises.

haha you crack me up kato

Kato Engineering · 10-25-2009, 03:27 PM

reality is,

you cant have everything....!!!!

there is no such thing as "the best of both worlds"......

when you are at one end of the spectrum, the other end gets bent out of shape.

..this is all too common,
especially with those that just go and "buy it at a store", rather than actually have to do the work .

NEALD · 10-25-2009, 03:34 PM

keep the motor, swap a larger cam and put a smaller blower pulley on it. Thats what i would do. BTW what are your goals for the motor?

marked for life · 10-25-2009, 06:14 PM

I have a broken piston 306ci now with a unrepairable damaged block. One member can't
even sell a fresh set of afr 185 heads with upgrades for a thousand bucks in this economy. GOAL, Zero to 60mph in 4 seconds flat.. some people like to go fast, i just like getting there fast...

''I hate boom boom rap mu sic''

High fidelity means dynaudio/mbquarts/extant amps

masterjr33 · 10-25-2009, 07:49 PM

How to 0-60 in your car in 4 seconds.

1:347 CHP motor.
2:your top end.
3:your blower.
4:More boost.
5: More fuel.
6: check results
7: if unhappy repeat #4,5,6.
8: break axles.

1991vert · 10-25-2009, 09:11 PM

waste of a dart block imo. should just buy a junkyard motor and have it rebuilt

marked for life · 10-25-2009, 10:01 PM

hey 1991vert is it possible to post a dyno sheet of your combo ,Thanks.
The rear has 31 spline moser axles and a eaton posi The aod was built by
Silverfox with all the upgrades possible at the time last year.

1991vert · 10-26-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marked for life

hey 1991vert is it possible to post a dyno sheet of your combo ,Thanks.
The rear has 31 spline moser axles and a eaton posi The aod was built by
Silverfox with all the upgrades possible at the time last year.

i have a video where it put down 603 @5300 (i think), but forgot the camera the second time down....

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Dyno-pull_712137.htm

i'll see if i can scan the dyno sheet tomorrow...

marked for life · 10-26-2009, 11:35 PM

Real nice car there vert, does'nt whine as loud as some i've heard,
maybe your blower setup is the way to go. Post up that sheet.
Thanks

1991vert · 10-27-2009, 12:16 AM

dyno sheet...sorry it was a cell phone pic. keep in mind the info at the bottom of the sheet (temp., humidity, etc.). we left it rich up top just incase...

edit: resized

marked for life · 10-27-2009, 08:15 PM

Very nice power curve there and with 550 lb ft rwtq at 6400rpm now thats
something i could live with. Any work on the heads or just out of the box? What cc heads are they and what is your finished compression ratio?
Are the pistons off the shelf? Seems like a rather straight forward build there.
Thanks for your time and putting up the graph, also i was not expecting to
see that amount of low end power. I LIKE IT... On a personal note,
If there is anything you could have done different or change in your build what would you change ?

1991vert · 10-28-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marked for life

Very nice power curve there and with 550 lb ft rwtq at 6400rpm now thats
something i could live with. Any work on the heads or just out of the box? What cc heads are they and what is your finished compression ratio?
Are the pistons off the shelf? Seems like a rather straight forward build there.
Thanks for your time and putting up the graph, also i was not expecting to
see that amount of low end power. I LIKE IT... On a personal note,
If there is anything you could have done different or change in your build what would you change ?

started with a 351 block and stroked it!

the heads are AFR185 heads right out of the box...i wish i went with at least a 205cc now, but the streetability is great. pistons are Diamond pistons. final CR was like 8.9:1 or 9:1

10-23-2009, 07:18 PM	#1
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	HP/TQ gains going from 4.030 to 4.125 bore with same cubes Unshrouding the valve by the bigger bore will make more power but does anyone know how much? I have the afr 165 competition heads now and am sticking with them because i'm stuck with the ported lower intake setup on this Kennebell and need the 1.200 by 2.00 inch intake port so I cant sell to upgrade my heads. The Kennebell has the stock setup discharge manifold so what gains since i am building a new dart shortblock? __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-23-2009, 07:42 PM	#2
Stitch Registered User Trader Feedback: (10) Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dearborn Michigan Posts: 424	If all you are doing is changing the bore I would sway 20HP. __________________ Dave Zimmerman @ Team-Z Suspension Cary Chounard @ Performance Inductions Jim Woods @ Fordstrokers

10-23-2009, 07:48 PM	#3
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	Thanks Stitch, any low end torque estimates? __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-23-2009, 09:58 PM	#5
Cobra427 Registered User Trader Feedback: (0) Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Dallas TX, U-S-A Posts: 502	Not enough to justify the hastle. __________________ 93 SSP 3220 lbs, W/C T-5,3.90's,ported gt40 irons,stock valves,cut/boxed/ported/knife edged Cobra intake ,ported lower.30# injectors with an old SVT meter,Bcam..best 1/4-12.44@107.35 1/8-7.931@86.85 DA 2075, 1.74 60' on Nitto Dr's Catted UPR X, and shorties.

10-23-2009, 11:20 PM	#6
PGreenSVT Registered User Trader Feedback: (28) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Abingdon, Md. Posts: 2,677	Seems to me that with his initial caveat "same cubic inches" he would have to use a shorter stroke so I think that should pull some of the torque. __________________ 2005 F250 Super Duty Harley Davidson True Blue 1997 SVT Cobra Pacific Green 1995 5.0 GT Dark Forest Green *If you aren't living on the edge, you're takin' up too much space!*

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10-23-2009, 08:15 PM	#4
MurPHy4570 Registered User Trader Feedback: (3) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: West Deptford, NJ Posts: 4,361	Torque and static compression ratio will increase, if all other factors remain the same.

10-24-2009, 12:55 AM	#7
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	Yes I would agree PGreenSVT, the comparision is 3.25/4.125 vs 3.40/4.030 which would mean longer piston hang time equals longer filling (3.40) verse giving the air a cleaner shot into the cylinder. If going for a strong mid (3000 to 5000 rpm) which would you choose? A 363ci would probably flatline above 5000 rpm with the restrictive Kennebells intake manifold and comp AFR 165's. Not sure though. Thanks for the replies, I really want to make a decision soon, this stuff is driving me crazy. __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials. Last edited by marked for life; 10-24-2009 at 01:01 AM. Reason: ADDTION

10-24-2009, 11:35 AM	#8
PGreenSVT Registered User Trader Feedback: (28) Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Abingdon, Md. Posts: 2,677	For sure with a 363 I would ditch the AFR 165's in favor of something that can flow more. That KB is going to hold you back too being designed for a basic bolt on 302 motor. I know it a bitch when you already have those things but you got them to match up with a 306 not a 363 or even a 347 for that matter. You'd have plenty of torque with a 363 and it might be time to consider a Centrifugal if you are stuck on a blower car. I'd be looking to a turbo for a power adder if it was me but alas...I'm an NA die hard. __________________ 2005 F250 Super Duty Harley Davidson True Blue 1997 SVT Cobra Pacific Green 1995 5.0 GT Dark Forest Green *If you aren't living on the edge, you're takin' up too much space!* Last edited by PGreenSVT; 10-24-2009 at 11:45 AM.

10-24-2009, 02:11 PM	#10
Kato Engineering Registered User Trader Feedback: (0) Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Devore Hts, Calif...FIRE COUNTRY Posts: 17,858	what is wrong with going to the 4.125 bore AND keeping the 3.400" stroke...??? get rid of the restrictive intake and K-B setup....!!!! __________________ I have gone down the road that you are only now about to travel. tires are the great equalizer a degree wheel, EIGHT INCH dial caliper & adjustable pushrods should be just as normal as a 1/2" wrench in your toolbox there aint no shortcuts to doing it RIGHT....

10-24-2009, 10:47 PM	#11
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	I've listened to alot of centri blowers on you tube and even the vortech sq blowers are really noisy at idle, don't know if i could deal with that whinning on my daily driver since i have 6000.00 dollars worth of audio and enjoy the extreme interior quiteness of my Lincoln. I could barely hear the motor with my setup, well that is until i installed aluminum heads and diffferent cam. I'm an audiofile purist at heart and hate the outside noise. This setup made 480 rwtq thru an aod at 3300 rpm. ANY GUESS ON TQ AND MID POWER WITH THE 363/E85/15LB/165 heads. I got nitrous to take care of the top side. Turbos are just to much work since there is no bolt on kit for a lincoln. The whipple setup seems like a ton of work too. KATO you say a 363 could give me all the torque i want, how much and where in the band? N/A is not off the table. Thanks gentlemen for your time... __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-25-2009, 01:25 PM	#12
1991vert Registered User Trader Feedback: (1) Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: western mass Posts: 535	IMO, waste of time/money on that setup. you have bottleneck after bottleneck. if you invested in a dart block, might as well build it right. benefits will not outweight the cost on this one. bigger bore will need bigger pistons ($$$), if you want to keep the same cubic inches, you will need the correect rod ($$$), etc. i see no benefit to unshrouding the valves if you are set on keeping those heads and blower. __________________ 91vert: Dart Block, 363 stroker - all forged internals, AFR185s, Trickflow Box-R, 90mm t/b, CI cam, scorpion 1.6's, Hooker 1 3/4" longtubes 3" coll., custom x-pipe, 3.73's, Paxton Novi2000, intercooler 630rwhp/565rwtq @ 15psi

10-25-2009, 03:06 PM	#13
Kato Engineering Registered User Trader Feedback: (0) Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Devore Hts, Calif...FIRE COUNTRY Posts: 17,858	YUP, eventually he will have to give up something... one thing or another... first would be to give up the "rap noise" thru the speakers. eventually the overall setup will have to be made more towards overall engine power , rather than all these combined compromises. __________________ I have gone down the road that you are only now about to travel. tires are the great equalizer a degree wheel, EIGHT INCH dial caliper & adjustable pushrods should be just as normal as a 1/2" wrench in your toolbox there aint no shortcuts to doing it RIGHT....

10-25-2009, 03:27 PM	#15
Kato Engineering Registered User Trader Feedback: (0) Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Devore Hts, Calif...FIRE COUNTRY Posts: 17,858	reality is, you cant have everything....!!!! there is no such thing as "the best of both worlds"...... when you are at one end of the spectrum, the other end gets bent out of shape. ..this is all too common, especially with those that just go and "buy it at a store", rather than actually have to do the work . __________________ I have gone down the road that you are only now about to travel. tires are the great equalizer a degree wheel, EIGHT INCH dial caliper & adjustable pushrods should be just as normal as a 1/2" wrench in your toolbox there aint no shortcuts to doing it RIGHT....

10-25-2009, 03:34 PM	#16
NEALD Registered User Trader Feedback: (6) Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: poughkeepsie, ny Posts: 188	keep the motor, swap a larger cam and put a smaller blower pulley on it. Thats what i would do. BTW what are your goals for the motor?

10-25-2009, 06:14 PM	#17
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	I have a broken piston 306ci now with a unrepairable damaged block. One member can't even sell a fresh set of afr 185 heads with upgrades for a thousand bucks in this economy. GOAL, Zero to 60mph in 4 seconds flat.. some people like to go fast, i just like getting there fast... ''I hate boom boom rap mu sic'' High fidelity means dynaudio/mbquarts/extant amps __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-25-2009, 07:49 PM	#18
masterjr33 Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Jville Posts: 471	How to 0-60 in your car in 4 seconds. 1:347 CHP motor. 2:your top end. 3:your blower. 4:More boost. 5: More fuel. 6: check results 7: if unhappy repeat #4,5,6. 8: break axles. __________________ 1973 Mach1 vert.1986 GT. 1991 coupe. 95 GT stick. 04 V6. Performance red. Burgandy.Calypso/teal.Black/black.silver. Old rusty fun toy.T-top T70.un-molested.Tri bar fan.2,000$ ha

10-25-2009, 09:11 PM	#19
1991vert Registered User Trader Feedback: (1) Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: western mass Posts: 535	waste of a dart block imo. should just buy a junkyard motor and have it rebuilt __________________ 91vert: Dart Block, 363 stroker - all forged internals, AFR185s, Trickflow Box-R, 90mm t/b, CI cam, scorpion 1.6's, Hooker 1 3/4" longtubes 3" coll., custom x-pipe, 3.73's, Paxton Novi2000, intercooler 630rwhp/565rwtq @ 15psi

10-25-2009, 10:01 PM	#20
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	hey 1991vert is it possible to post a dyno sheet of your combo ,Thanks. The rear has 31 spline moser axles and a eaton posi The aod was built by Silverfox with all the upgrades possible at the time last year. __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-26-2009, 11:35 PM	#22
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	Real nice car there vert, does'nt whine as loud as some i've heard, maybe your blower setup is the way to go. Post up that sheet. Thanks __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

10-27-2009, 12:16 AM	#23
1991vert Registered User Trader Feedback: (1) Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: western mass Posts: 535	dyno sheet...sorry it was a cell phone pic. keep in mind the info at the bottom of the sheet (temp., humidity, etc.). we left it rich up top just incase... edit: resized __________________ 91vert: Dart Block, 363 stroker - all forged internals, AFR185s, Trickflow Box-R, 90mm t/b, CI cam, scorpion 1.6's, Hooker 1 3/4" longtubes 3" coll., custom x-pipe, 3.73's, Paxton Novi2000, intercooler 630rwhp/565rwtq @ 15psi Last edited by 1991vert; 10-27-2009 at 12:19 AM.

10-27-2009, 08:15 PM	#24
marked for life Registered User Trader Feedback: (2) Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 217	Very nice power curve there and with 550 lb ft rwtq at 6400rpm now thats something i could live with. Any work on the heads or just out of the box? What cc heads are they and what is your finished compression ratio? Are the pistons off the shelf? Seems like a rather straight forward build there. Thanks for your time and putting up the graph, also i was not expecting to see that amount of low end power. I LIKE IT... On a personal note, If there is anything you could have done different or change in your build what would you change ? __________________ 4400lb 90 KB MarkVII, Blowzilla 2.2, 306ci, A9l, 70mmTB, C&L 85mm maf, 36lb inj. 255 lph, AFR165/Nos exhaust ports, 1.6r.r,Cam 218/220 268/276 570/547 114, Meth inj.50/50,16gph, 150hp NOS Dry, Ported lower, 2800 PI Convertor, 3.73, AOD, 1.560 60' 7.40@92 11.63@117 with 125nos , MT Radials.

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